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STL In November  
User currently onlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Well thought I'd do some updates for STL as a whole since the last one.

Delta will start STL-RDU with 2 daily CRJ tomorrow, November 7th. They just initiated STL-DCA October 31st. All announced routes from Delta for STL has now started as of this weekend. I wish Delta good luck in these routes becoming a success!

Alaska Airlines initiated their SEA-STL-SEA service back in September, I noticed they have their own ticket counter and kiosk as well. It says DELTA/KLM/AIR FRANCE on the counters for Alaska, and flystl.com shows Alaska utilizing all the Delta gates. Alaska Airlines took over the former NWA ticket counter in STL.

Alaska also has a kiosk inside the A Gates too.

www.flystl.com shows that Cape Air is now flying out of gate C-7 and has moved ops from D. If this is the case D is officially no longer being served by any commercial airline at the moment.

Cape Air has won the bid to fly to TBN as announced in the OAG thread, so Cape Air will now be serving 5 destinations, MWA, CGI, IRK, TBN and UIN.

SWA has announced 2 daily EWR-STL, which I think brings up their daily flights to 88 daily in March?

F9 will begin STL-PVR December 16th, making them serve 4 destinations from STL, CUN, DEN, MKE and PVR.

UA/CO will upgrade 2 of the STL-EWR flights to E170's, making it 5 daily with 3 ERJ and 2 170.

Anyone else have anything to add?

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

Delta will be operating a 757-200 daily soon, closing off A12 during seasonal operations as a result..


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently onlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 1):
Delta will be operating a 757-200 daily soon, closing off A12 during seasonal operations as a result..

Already in effect starting Nov 1st! 6am departure STL-ATL Flight 2280.

Also I show a 757-300 starting Nov 15th it seems? Also STL-ATL. Could be a one day thing for a charter service but it si indeed bookable!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 2):
Also I show a 757-300 starting Nov 15th it seems? Also STL-ATL. Could be a one day thing for a charter service but it si indeed bookable!

A few 753's show up bookable in and out of STL as repositioning to/from sports charters (typically the Rams). There's one inbound from MSP on 27 NOV and outbound to ATL on 29 NOV as well, I believe that is the bird taking the Rams to Phoenix for their Thanksgiving weekend game.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7115 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 1):


Also I show a 757-300 starting Nov 15th it seems? Also STL-ATL. Could be a one day thing for a charter service but it si indeed bookable!

Isn't it sad that we in STL get excited about a 757-300 when there used to be rows of L-1011's & 767's along the north side of the C concourse with a 747 often parked at the end of C waiting to go to HNL or LGW?   



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2076 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 4):
Isn't it sad that we in STL get excited about a 757-300 when there used to be rows of L-1011's & 767's along the north side of the C concourse with a 747 often parked at the end of C waiting to go to HNL or LGW?

All good things come to an end, unfortunately. We aren't the only ones in this. I have to travel through CVG a bit and I would argue that situation is equally depressing, if not more.

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
Delta will start STL-RDU with 2 daily CRJ tomorrow, November 7th. They just initiated STL-DCA October 31st. All announced routes from Delta for STL has now started as of this weekend. I wish Delta good luck in these routes becoming a success!

Response to these routes have, in a word, been bad. LGA is often going out near empty and there is only one passenger booked on tomorrow morning's DCA leg to STL. The poor loads are a result of the pricing strategy DL used at first, asking nearly $600 2 and 3 months out when AA was significantly cheaper (although I have seen a shift in pricing strategy). Hopefully DL considers STL a strategic priority and is willing to absorb some early losses, because these flights have to be bleeding some serious red ink.

On the other hand, from what I can tell the UA/SFO and AS/SEA flights are doing extremely well and could be candidates for second daily's in peak seasons.

Other than that stuff, I know the Chinese delegation for the cargo "hub" visited this past week. Which, if you think about it, is both a good and a bad thing. That's all I've got.


User currently offlinestlAV8R From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Hello...long time reader, 1st time posting! Just to add...MEM goes mainline for DL on the 1st departure starting mid February.

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
Delta will start STL-RDU with 2 daily CRJ tomorrow, November 7th.

It actually started November 1st. The loads have been better than LGA and DCA from what I have seen.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 1):
closing off A12 during seasonal operations as a result..

With the parking requirements of the 757 on A10, A12 will be closed permanently so A8 can be used. This happened Friday.

Rumor at the airport says US is moving to the C concourse in January instead of spring. That should give DL more room to grow if need be.

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
I noticed they have their own ticket counter and kiosk as well. It says DELTA/KLM/AIR FRANCE on the counters for Alaska

Actually DL and AS are splitting the old NW counter. DL is using half for a Sky Priority counter and AS uses the other half staffed by DL employees. The AS side has its own backdrop.

[Edited 2010-11-06 14:15:01]

User currently onlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7011 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 4):

Isn't it sad that we in STL get excited about a 757-300 when there used to be rows of L-1011's & 767's along the north side of the C concourse with a 747 often parked at the end of C waiting to go to HNL or LGW?

Very Sad hahaha I always jump up and down when I see a 757 at anytime in STL LMAO

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):

Response to these routes have, in a word, been bad.

Yikes! I hope they do catch quickly, I would fly them for sure if I ever need to go to those cities.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):

On the other hand, from what I can tell the UA/SFO and AS/SEA flights are doing extremely well and could be candidates for second daily's in peak seasons.

Good to hear, I kind of hoped UA would make the STL-SFO a 757 but ok I am glad to see mainline! Frequency over Upgrade I suppose is good.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):

Other than that stuff, I know the Chinese delegation for the cargo "hub" visited this past week. Which, if you think about it, is both a good and a bad thing. That's all I've got.

Better then nothing!

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):
Hello...long time reader, 1st time posting! Just to add...MEM goes mainline for DL on the 1st departure starting mid February.

Welcome to anet and glad to have another STL user around!   So STL-MEM will see an A319, that's quite big, surprised to not see a DC950 instead!

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):

It actually started November 1st. The loads have been better than LGA and DCA from what I have seen.

Did it?! Wow my mistake, swore it was the 7th. Surprised to hear they are doing better than LGA/DCA which have no WN non stop, yet RDU which has WN on the route, uncanny.

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):

Actually DL and AS are splitting the old NW counter. DL is using half for a Sky Priority counter and AS uses the other half staffed by DL employees. The AS side has its own backdrop.

I was wondering why I saw a Hybrid type of the background, thanks for that information!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineMNMncrcnwjr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6962 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
Alaska Airlines took over the former NWA ticket counter in STL.

As posted splitting with DL Sky Priority counter....

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter):
Alaska also has a kiosk inside the A Gates too.

Just to the right of A4 IIRC and they swap the AS priority carpet with the Dl SkyPriority sign and Carpet as well for the AS flight.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 7):
So STL-MEM will see an A319, that's quite big, surprised to not see a DC950 instead!

Ya .. 1 overall seat short I believe and 4 FC seats short from the -50.... but would make sense as probably fewer Medallions heading to MEM as the last two CRJ's I were on to MEM from STL had empty FC seats.



CV340/580DC3DC9super80MD88/90DC10717273747576777A319/20CRJ2/7/9F27AVROJET31CITAT5/7/XSAAB340YS11Dash8E135/45/75
User currently offlinestl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):
Rumor at the airport says US is moving to the C concourse in January instead of spring. That should give DL more room to grow if need be.

I had no idea they were being moved to the C concourse at all. I would assume this is so United and Continental can move their operations together and gives Delta more room as well.

I also thought the airport was to begin the major renovation/transformation of the A and C concourse in November but I have not heard anything. Anyone have any news on that?

Also is Southwest in the process of adding an additional gate?; with the news of them adding new flights to EWR and additional frequencies announced with the prior schedule change, the spring schedule will bring them up to almost 86 or 87 flights a day with only 9 gates.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):
Response to these routes have, in a word, been bad. LGA is often going out near empty and there is only one passenger booked on tomorrow morning's DCA leg to STL. The poor loads are a result of the pricing strategy DL used at first, asking nearly $600 2 and 3 months out when AA was significantly cheaper (although I have seen a shift in pricing strategy). Hopefully DL considers STL a strategic priority and is willing to absorb some early losses, because these flights have to be bleeding some serious red ink.

I hope Delta can find a way to make these flights work.....I would hate to see STL have only one airline choice to one of the most popular business destinations out of STL. I did see they are downgrading the flights to 3 CRJ-70 and 1 EMB-170 in January.....

[Edited 2010-11-06 19:55:31]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6826 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):
Hopefully DL considers STL a strategic priority and is willing to absorb some early losses, because these flights have to be bleeding some serious red ink.

I don't know if they would. Is the STL market really worth fighting for? If the routes don't show serious improvement soon, I'd be surprised if DL didn't have something better to do with the planes.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 5):
, I know the Chinese delegation for the cargo "hub" visited this past week. Which, if you think about it, is both a good and a bad thing.

My position on that hasn't changed.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6779 times:

How's this:

STL-NYC (LGA/JFK) on DL is operated by Compass Shuttle America & Comair.

STL-EWR on UA will be operated by Shuttle America.

STL-EWR on CO will still be operated by ExpressJet.

Looks like United will bring in Shuttle America to compete with...Shuttle America.


User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6711 times:

UA/CO should resume 737 (or begin A319/20) STL-EWR service to compete with WN at the very least. And 735s or CR7s on the STL-IAH route would be most welcome.

An F cabin, please!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6686 times:

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 12):
UA/CO should resume 737 (or begin A319/20) STL-EWR service to compete with WN at the very least. And 735s or CR7s on the STL-IAH route would be most welcome.

I could see CRJ-700s on the route as the merger continues, but mainline would be a surprise to me. I think that part of it may be that IAH is just not that well positioned for connections from STL. It works well for Mexico or Central/South America, but that's kind of about it. And as the merger progresses, it would probably make more sense to send STL traffic via ORD or DEN.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6680 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):


Is the STL market really worth fighting for?

You really have a negative attitude towards STL. While the majority of your observations are relevant, I tire of your dumping on our market.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 14):
You really have a negative attitude towards STL.

I would consider myself a realist. I want to see widebodies in and out of their all day as much as anybody, but it just isn't going to happen. I don't understand why people think STL can support three daily flights to SEA (in the summer) when it hasn't been over two since the hub went away. And I don't understand why the Chinese would possibly want to fly to STL instead of ORD or various other places. And when I make that wisecrack about Emirates being the most likely carrier to schedule a widebody to STL, I'm only half joking, although I think a flight to LHR could do well during the high season.

As far as Delta goes, their flights could end up like WN's LAX flight a while back, where AA didn't just go away. That is a lot of aircraft time to tie up and if it's bleeding money, they could probably find more profitable places to use those planes. And who knows how the AirTran/WN merger will affect Delta. On the one hand, they stand to gain a lot of premium pax put off by WN's lack of bigger seats. On the other hand, Southwest gets a strong beach head in their back yard. Maybe Delta diversifies, or maybe they retrench.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 12):
An F cabin, please!

Thats exactly what S5 is bringing by UA having the E170 fly STL-EWR. Those planes and flights will have an F Cabin.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6577 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 4):
Isn't it sad that we in STL get excited about a 757-300 when there used to be rows of L-1011's & 767's along the north side of the C concourse with a 747 often parked at the end of C waiting to go to HNL or LGW?   

Yes - yes it is.

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):
Rumor at the airport says US is moving to the C concourse in January instead of spring. That should give DL more room to grow if need be.

Not gonna happen anytime soon. Too much bickering about who will pay for the move.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineMNMncrcnwjr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6559 times:

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 6):
With the parking requirements of the 757 on A10, A12 will be closed permanently so A8 can be used.

??? A8 is already in use as NW started using it while A5 was turned into a Starbucks for some unknown reason .. The gate area shared by A10 and A12 is cramped now for a CRJ 900 flight .. Can't wait to see how congested it gets with a 757 in there ...

Any word as if the reality of a Mini SkyClub being completed anytime soon?

Also US lists only one gate on A (A16) so would UA/CO swap A9 in the back alley, or A14 for A16?

I'm just glad they have the upper deck departure area fixed and the main terminal construction scaffolding gone .. The colored light panels in the ceilings are kinda interesting .......



CV340/580DC3DC9super80MD88/90DC10717273747576777A319/20CRJ2/7/9F27AVROJET31CITAT5/7/XSAAB340YS11Dash8E135/45/75
User currently offlinesphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6529 times:

On the plus side, I was in the main terminal for the first time in a while and I noticed that my advice of 2 years ago has been taken   and there is now a Missouri wine bar in operation. That's a plus for both Lambert and the Missouri wine region.

sPh

Unfortunately it wasn't open at 0630 


User currently offlinestl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6528 times:

Also it looks like a new restaurant opened in the A concourse this month, Mosaic Fusion near gate A10.

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 18):
Also US lists only one gate on A (A16) so would UA/CO swap A9 in the back alley, or A14 for A16?

Well really they utilize gates A15, 16 and 17, not sure why their website only lists one gate.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I could see CRJ-700s on the route as the merger continues, but mainline would be a surprise to me.

I agree....I doubt they will bring back mainline service anytime soon but I could see them upgrading a couple of flights to IAH to CRJ-70s.


User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2076 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
I don't know if they would. Is the STL market really worth fighting for? If the routes don't show serious improvement soon, I'd be surprised if DL didn't have something better to do with the planes.

Are they really "fighting for it"? If they've identified the market as one they would like to expand in, I'm sure that Delta is willing to absorb losses for a period of time. If things don't improve, cut bait. I'll be interested to see what happens with DCA since the pricing structure has been changed dramatically.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
My position on that hasn't changed.

You've made it perfectly clear what you think of the market and the area in general. Its as if you post in these threads simply to dump on the market. I think all of us are tired of your negativity/smugness. Go antagonize some other city.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
I would consider myself a realist. I want to see widebodies in and out of their all day as much as anybody, but it just isn't going to happen. I don't understand why people think STL can support three daily flights to SEA (in the summer) when it hasn't been over two since the hub went away

AS is packing their flights and has already made an adjustment to bring in the 737-900. If the flights are doing so well, why wouldn't you try a third daily in the summer? Its not like AA had a ton of connecting opportunities at either end of the route when they flew it, so there will certainly be some marginal demand realized by utilizing AS' expansive northwest network.


User currently offlinestlAV8R From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6367 times:

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 9):
I had no idea they were being moved to the C concourse at all. I would assume this is so United and Continental can move their operations together and gives Delta more room as well.

Yes and I would suspect that you will see CO move toward the end of A once they start consolidating gates and counters. I wouldn't be surprised though if the new UA moved with US to the C concourse to keep the Star Alliance together. This would be better for code sharing IMO.

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 18):
??? A8 is already in use as NW started using it while A5 was turned into a Starbucks for some unknown reason .. The gate area shared by A10 and A12 is cramped now for a CRJ 900 flight .. Can't wait to see how congested it gets with a 757 in there ...

The 757 uses A10 now but before some adjustments were made, A8 and A10 could not be used simultaneously while a 757 was on A10. Now they both can be used again simultaneously.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
AS is packing their flights and has already made an adjustment to bring in the 737-900. If the flights are doing so well, why wouldn't you try a third daily in the summer?

Is AS bringing a second daily flight in the summer? The 737-900 wasn't the plan but with the route doing so well they have had to constantly upgrade and what is really shocking is that they don't oversell their flights for the first month it operates so that shows there was very strong demand from the beginning!

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
Its not like AA had a ton of connecting opportunities at either end of the route when they flew it, so there will certainly be some marginal demand realized by utilizing AS' expansive northwest network.

Agreed and with the seasonal traffic to ANC I would prefer to see two daily flights to SEA, one morning and one evening, and one summer seasonal non-stop to ANC. It would be mostly leisure to ANC but it's a lot of tour traffic which can yield a lot of revenue for an airline.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
Are they really "fighting for it"? If they've identified the market as one they would like to expand in, I'm sure that Delta is willing to absorb losses for a period of time. If things don't improve, cut bait. I'll be interested to see what happens with DCA since the pricing structure has been changed dramatically.

What could also be hurting DL is their promotions for EQMs in and out of STL which is causing your business travelers who are trying to retain status for next year make multiple connections instead of the non-stops. I would expect better business to pick up once people recognize that DL has these non-stops as well as after the holidays and the beginning of the year.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
If things don't improve, cut bait.

Exactly. So, how long does DL wait before the pull the plug?

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
You've made it perfectly clear what you think of the market and the area in general. Its as if you post in these threads simply to dump on the market. I think all of us are tired of your negativity/smugness. Go antagonize some other city.

So, if I'm trying to make money by flying cargo to and from China, what exactly is the case for St. Louis? Why would I fly there when I could fly to Chicago, or Dallas, or Atlanta? Do the Chinese need beer that badly? It just doesn't make sense to me. I'll believe it when the first plane lands, and even then I would make sure that they just didn't get lost on their way to Chicago.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
If the flights are doing so well, why wouldn't you try a third daily in the summer?

You would if they are still doing well. But will they still be doing well after WN restarts? I think that two flights per day is definitely pushing it in the low season, and there is no telling how much of a downward pressure the competition would put on yields. And even if they do want to add another flight, it is not a given that Alaska will have a plane to fly it with.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 22):
What could also be hurting DL is their promotions for EQMs in and out of STL which is causing your business travelers who are trying to retain status for next year make multiple connections instead of the non-stops. I would expect better business to pick up once people recognize that DL has these non-stops as well as after the holidays and the beginning of the year.

On the flip side of this, though, overall DL loads to/from/through STL are artificially inflated by a small amount due to these promos. While DL may be seeing strong support from STL, a portion of their traffic is people from places like Minneapolis who are choosing to book one-way MSP-STL and STL-MSP tickets to bracket an STL-SYD-STL ticket so that they can take advantage of these promos too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

So, if I'm trying to make money by flying cargo to and from China, what exactly is the case for St. Louis? Why would I fly there when I could fly to Chicago, or Dallas, or Atlanta?

Having seen several presentations by the St. Louis delegation, I unfortunately have to agree with BMI727 here. The group's entire aim is to entice the Chinese by claiming to avoid the capacity pressures at ORD, ATL, and DFW - they openly acknowledge that the majority of cargo flown to STL would be trucked toward those three places. However, given that improvements are removing capacity constraints at ORD (and really wouldn't impede potential night operations anyhow), the need for STL as a Chinese cargo hub is anything but clear.

In fact, the word "hub" really is out of place here. At this point, STL is just hoping to pick up a couple weekly frequencies, possibly even as part of a triangle route. They were adding LAX to the discussions in response to concerns over loads returning to China, so a China-STL-LAX-China route is essentially the target for now.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 21):
AS is packing their flights and has already made an adjustment to bring in the 737-900.

I've been impressed by AS's performance thus far and think it'll be very interesting to see how it goes. They would seem to have a leg up on WN for capturing traffic ex-SEA as well as connections from STL to points in the northwest, so I'm optimistic they can at the very least stand against WN on the route. If it does well, it would be great to see a second daily to SEA in the summer season.

To clarify, though, the 737-900 was put on the route due to aircraft availability issues. AS is running extremely short on frames for its current flying program and were not able to deploy the 738 on STL, so they found free time in the 739 program instead.


25 lambertman : I'm not sure there's an answer to that. It depends on a number of factors, but I suppose one of them would be seeing significant progress on the rout
26 Cubsrule : Never mind growth - they need gates to address the status quo (though I for one think DCA and LGA will get 5-7 flights between them post-merger).
27 steex : Agreed, I think AS's performance has been a huge positive. Given that they already are filling the 739 (and hopefully at reasonable yield), I think a
28 pilotpip : I have a feeling AA will be cutting the LGA service soon. Once that happens DL will be the only game in town. We already do that on ORD-LGA. I'm sure
29 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I also love STL but i cant imagine there being enough traffic for any airline to make STL-ANC work purely off of o&d even just the summer months.
30 MNMncrcnwjr : As we taxi'd out last night looked at the A10 A12 ramp area ... would look as if using A12 for the 757 would make most sense ... (IF DL is using it n
31 ckfred : I flew MCO-STL-ORD on AA last November, and it was both shocking and depressing to see D all but empty and C less than half full. I had last been to S
32 stlAV8R : The amount of traffic that heads to ANC just for the summer is amazing! This would have to most definitely be a morning flight but people flock there
33 BMI727 : Of course we don't know what fares those people are paying. And again, AS would have to find a plane to fly it with.
34 atrude777 : I don't know if someone already mentioned and I think they did but wanted to confirm for sure.. Come end of April 2011, WN's schedule will have STL se
35 MNMncrcnwjr : AS runs a 738 ANC-HNL, and ANC-STL looks to be 2950 only ~160 more than the HNL route .... DL was running a 753 (x ?) MSP- ANC in the Summer , just a
36 BMI727 : No, not a performance problem. The issue is whether or not Alaska would actually have a plane available to fly it.
37 steex : The issue isn't that AS doesn't own a plane capable of flying the route - after all, they fly the 738 ANC-ORD as well - the issue is that AS already
38 777STL : Just wait until you see it now - I've landed several times only to find C concourse devoid of any parked aircraft at all.
39 atrude777 : To add onto that... Delta- 37 flights to 9 Cities US Airways-- 12 flights to 4 cities UA/CO- 33 flights to 7 cities AA- 33 flights to 7 cities F9- 5
40 lambertman : ANC would not work under any circumstance. There simply isn't enough traffic, and it would likely hurt the SEA route to some degree. If there were a
41 BHMNONREV : TW had a difficult time making this route work on a seasonal basis with a ton of connecting feed, just can't see this happening. I think 248 flights
42 stlAV8R : 10 cities... A quick search on BTS shows more traffic to ANC than PDX during the summer... Well when you think about it really, there are cities that
43 stlAV8R : STL has a lot of work ahead as far as facilities are concerned. I don't know the numbers, but I would be willing to guess that there is a lot of money
44 Cubsrule : I don't pay for my business travel directly, but the people who pay for my travel expect me to take the cheapest and quickest routing. That means tha
45 BMI727 : Certainly. Honestly, other than a summer transatlantic connection, I would have to say that the service STL gets is pretty much in line with the mark
46 atrude777 : That and the others who think otherwise. I was comparing it to the 400+ Daily TWA had back in the day. I realize that's gone and history but it is qu
47 Post contains images stl1326 : Are you looking at weekday flights....if you are I counted 40 on Delta (4 DCA, 4 LGA, 3 CVG, 3 MEM, 8 ATL, 3 SLC, 1 JFK, 2 RDU, 6 MSP, 6 DTW) 17 flig
48 atrude777 : I used April 27th, 2011, a Wednesday because that's when all of WN's flights for STL will have begun by then. Alex
49 MNMncrcnwjr : DL is either cheaper or the same on 90% of the routes I fly out of STL.. as far as A .. I'm in there twice a week and the only "new" items are the ne
50 BMI727 : I wouldn't want to sit in any coach seat for over three hours. That probably has tied up funds that could be used for other things, but saying the ne
51 Cubsrule : How far in advance do you book? At least in my city, WN's walkups are often much cheaper (sometimes as little as a third of the legacies). JAX has so
52 MNMncrcnwjr : Never said that .. just pointing out choices were made ...... didn't want to mention that JAX was totally rebuilt in the past few years and their fac
53 stlAV8R : IMO WN is getting out of the "cheapest" airline business and more into the "how we're better" business because airlines have decided to play nicely t
54 MNMncrcnwjr : Well with PMDL .. JAX was all 757 service, Currently they have 11x 757 1x MD88 ATL, 3x crj's MEM, 3x crj7's DTW, 1x e175 MSP, 2x crj CVG, 1x A319 and
55 ont2cgi : The Last time I was in STL was July and I was I C and what was left of D (came in on AA and left on Cape Air) It's a ghost town. It reminded me a lot
56 stl1326 : That is good to know....I know I heard they were starting the renovation project in November back in August but haven't heard anything since..... Tha
57 Cubsrule : I think STL is probably actually somewhat more connecting - WN moves a fair number of connecting passengers through STL (I'd guess without doing the
58 Post contains links MNMncrcnwjr : yes they do ... I forget about them as I haven't flown WN in 4 years due to a severe service problem (long story, long time to resolve, drugs, police
59 Post contains images Cubsrule : There's not much in the East terminal - though it's probably somewhat better than Main (I think we're supposed to call them Terminals 2 and 1 now...)
60 lambertman : The percentage of connecting passengers will only rise too. It's pretty clear at this point that WN is using St. Louis as the primary reliever for MD
61 bjorn14 : How many gates does D have?
62 uncGSO : flew through STL last week.. 9K outta MWA then sprinted to US CLT-GSO... Fly through STL thrice a year...no problems yet....great airport
63 BHMNONREV : Depending on configuration, D can have anywhere from 12-15 gates. But all in all, a very crappy facility which needs to come face to face with a wrec
64 SurfandSnow : Yes, I'd like to ask you what you think some potential new/upgraded STL routes might be. Here are some of my ideas: AM - MEX, once Cat II resumes. Gi
65 stlgph : Southwest to Oakland, Portland, and Austin, I could see. Other lcoations, no.
66 BHMNONREV : Gavin, I think you could add LGA and SAT to the list as well. BDL could be on the fringe, so to speak... And I could definitely see UA upgrading some
67 ChopChop767 : I flew through STL about three years ago on AA, going from BOS to ORD. The flight was the most turbulent flight I think I ever flew on, and that incl
68 stlgph : i hear you, but i think for now, LaGuardia is pretty much covered with nonstop options. San Antonio i was on the edge of putting down -- you have SBC
69 Cubsrule : Definitely LGA, and probably DCA post-merger as well. Why would STL work any better than CMH or BNA? What UA does with gauge probably depends as much
70 777STL : IIRC, AA only has 30 sum odd flights per day to STL. LGA, DCA, MIA, LAX, ORD, DFW on mainline with a single flight/day to JFK on Eagle. To put it in
71 moman : In 2005/2006 AA did a modest expansion after the cutbacks of 2003/2004. There was even discussions from AA spokespeople on how the cutbacks were too
72 ChopChop767 : Thanks for the information 777STL. So I guess the Bos flights are gone. When I did that routing, I think there were at least four or five flights from
73 Post contains images mariner : I'd quite like to see that, too, but it would be a real gauntlet thrown down in the face of You-Know-Who and I'm not sure they're ready to do that ye
74 ChopChop767 : Thanks for the ops synopsis moman. Sounds like AA ought to do some advertising/pr in STL.
75 September11 : Right ... Don't forget STL was once a hub for TWO airlines at same time: TWA and Ozark
76 TVNWZ : E was just remodeled in the early spring. Looks nice. All MKE concourses look better than any in STL IMHO. MKE is very easy to get around. Quick park
77 stlgph : they can add flights, yes .... at preferred timing for business routings? that's where the squeeze begins. if a random 2pm nonstop can work somewhere
78 DLdiamondboy : I totally agree. I grew up several miles to the south of STL and always enjoyed watching the TW 707's, L1011's and 747-100's. Now the biggest thing t
79 Cubsrule : Yes - but AFAIK that didn't solve the utter lack of concessions (aside from the Pizza Hut) or the inadequate restroom facilities - or did it? It's im
80 Post contains links atrude777 : I recorded this July of 2008 on my way to SEA on AA 757-200. Thought it might bring some memories! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhXqp5IGCYA Alex
81 DLdiamondboy : I also forgot to mention that the F-15 ANG squadron also was moved to Nellis AFB. I am guessing that WN is the number one carrier in flights per day o
82 steex : DL is indeed #2 in number of scheduled flights and non-stop destinations, but AA would still be #2 in terms for total seat capacity given that all AA
83 lambertman : St. Louis - Washington (in general) is rather saturated, as Delta is finding that out right now the hard way. I don't believe there is any capacity n
84 FutureUScapt : I agree that we won't see a 4th airline on STL-DC anytime soon. The only way US would possibly launch DCA-STL is if the slot swap with DL is eventual
85 DLdiamondboy : Hey Lambertman. I spent 40 years of my life in STL. I traveled a lot on business and the TW glory days were great. I thought TW was making all the ri
86 777STL : US still has a direct flight to PHX and I *think* WN still does as well. Additionally, STL does have some semi-regular charters to Puerto Villarta an
87 atrude777 : Both airlines operate 3 daily each STL-PHX for a total of 6 daily between the two. Air Tran does operate 1 daily STL-MCO USA3000 operates the PVR/CUN
88 stlAV8R : I think it would be nice if the airport connected A and C as one large concourse and used B as the entrance and security checkpoint, such as a corrid
89 Post contains links stl1326 : Thats been put on hold. They will review that project and others after they finish upgrades to the A and C Concourses and the renovation of T1's tick
90 stlAV8R : Thanks! It's like the airport got into Google and removed it! I couldn't find a single article on it. Has anyone heard what the Chinese have decided
91 BMI727 : I highly doubt it. Even if it does happen (which I think is far from a given) we are talking a few flights per week probably with a stop somewhere el
92 Cubsrule : Doubt what? More flights means lower costs. Period. Now, four flights don't lower costs like 200 flights would, but every little bit helps.
93 BMI727 : The huge uplifting thing. What airline out there is going to say "well, now that the four Chinese cargo flights a week have lowered the costs a littl
94 Cubsrule : Who said that will happen?
95 BMI727 : Well, what would be your qualification for "huge uplifting?"
96 Cubsrule : It's so vague that I don't see how I can say anything concrete about it.
97 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Yeah i definitely agree on Frontier i wish they had developed something more in STL Hey USA3000 has 5 destinations for STL passengers and offers non-
98 Post contains images BHMNONREV : There actually was a plan in place at one time very similar to what you have proposed. B would have been razed, the main terminal pushed out to creat
99 stlAV8R : I meant it would give a boost to the airport and their plans to diversify including finding new revenue streams. I don't know where hub status came f
100 PC12Fan : We STL'ers would love to see the major renovations that have been mentioned in this thread. In fact, I hear through the grape vine that these projects
101 Post contains images BHMNONREV : I got a couple bucks in my pocket if it will help Miz H-N get the project started.. And Alex and I have volunteered our services to take sledge hamme
102 mrSTL : I'll agree the purple carpeted walls are a problem, those can be easily fixed, What is the big problem with D?
103 BMI727 : I'm not sure how much of a boost several cargo flights per week could possibly provide, but whatever.
104 BHMNONREV : There is no "problem" with D per se, the place has just rubbed me the wrong way since they started construction in the early 80's. I miss the old air
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