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QF A380 SIN-SYD Engine Failure - Part 4  
User currently offlinemoderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 52939 times:
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This is a continuation thread from part 3, which can be found here: QF A380 SIN-SYD Engine Failure - Part 3

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251 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 52696 times:

From the prior thread:
"Neat. I wonder if there's a similar illustration focusing on the IPT disc and sorrounding bearings, etc."

Here's a good cutaway of a Trent1000...the Trent900 architecture is very similar:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2249/trent1000mid.jpg

Tom.


User currently offlinetepidhalibut From Iceland, joined Dec 2004, 209 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 52538 times:

Baroque Reply 252 in Thread 3
Someone might like to post the typical revs for each of the Trent spools at take-off.

I used to recall that the 524G's were 4-7-11. (LP - 4000 rpm, IP - 7000 rpm and HP 11,000 rpm. all numbers approximate)
Nowadays, fans are bigger, but slower - for noise reasons - and I think Max Take-Off speed limits for the Trent 900 are around 3-8-12. Typical speeds will be lower.

For comparison, GP7200 speed limits - LP 2738 / HP 13060 rpm


User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1832 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 52219 times:

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 2):
I used to recall that the 524G's were 4-7-11. (LP - 4000 rpm, IP - 7000 rpm and HP 11,000 rpm. all numbers approximate)
Nowadays, fans are bigger, but slower - for noise reasons - and I think Max Take-Off speed limits for the Trent 900 are around 3-8-12. Typical speeds will be lower.

For comparison, GP7200 speed limits - LP 2738 / HP 13060 rpm

I think the fans are bigger for higher efficiency and slower because they have to be slower to keep the tip speeds subsonic.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 51752 times:

From reply 245 in Part 3

Quoting gemuser (Reply 244):
NO maintenance responsibility

does that also include the little checks you do between flights or where is the line normally drawn?

(excuse my ignorance...)

Depends on the agreement to purchase, which in turn depends on the particular circumstances.

In one I'm vaguely familiar with the power provider actually employed the purchasing airline as sub contractors to do daily/minor stuff, if they found anything serious off came the engine and a spare went on. So the airline contracted with the "power provider" to provide power by the hour, who then let a sub contract back to the customer to do certain minor routine maintenance on the engines.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinegasturbineengr From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 7 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 51220 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
I think the fans are bigger for higher efficiency and slower because they have to be slower to keep the tip speeds subsonic.

You're on the right track. The tip speed is held to a limit, and it is for both aerodynamics and material concerns. The tip speed of a given design is one measure of the technology level, in that higher tip speeds are more challenging. However, the tips are indeed supersonic, it's not that aspect itself that sets the limit.


User currently offlineBerblinger From Germany, joined Aug 2009, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 50713 times:

In "Der Spiegel" (http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,728157,00.html, German only) it is mentioned that only Qantas is using the more powerful variant Trent 972 - different to Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines:

"20 von 37 der derzeit in Betrieb befindlichen A380 fliegen mit Triebwerken der Trent-900-Baureihe - auch die drei Flugzeuge der Lufthansa und die elf Maschinen der Singapore Airlines. Die Qantas ist jedoch die einzige Flugesellschaft, die die leistungsstärkere Variante Trent 972 nutzt."

My translation:

"20 of the 37 A380s currently in operation are flying with engines of the Trent-900 series - also the three aircrafts of Lufthansa and the eleven crafts of Singapore Airlines. However, Qantas is the only airline which operates the more powerful variant Trent 972."

Does anyone have more information on specific characteristics of the Trent 972?


User currently offlineBerblinger From Germany, joined Aug 2009, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 50641 times:

Sorry, the trailing comma is not corret in my last post. The link is: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,728157,00.html

User currently offlineBOEING747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 49999 times:

Could the higher thrust rating of the Qantas A380's RR Trent 972 be responsible for the engine failure? If so, then the correct solution would be to derate them down to RR Trent 970 which would be the same as those of the A380 of both Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines which have proven to been safe so far as of right now.

I think that the lower thrust rating limit of 70,000 lbs per engine on both EA and RR Trent 970 may be the safest for the A380?

Or perhaps there may be a mechanical design flaw on the RR Trent 900 series that may explain why it is not as safe as the EA engines?

Only time will tell what the real answer to the problem is!


User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 49953 times:

Someone posted info about SIA shutting down 1 engine because of unusual Oil settings. That could be it too...

User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4874 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 49925 times:

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 8):
which would be the same as those of the A380 of both Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines which have proven to been safe so far as of right now.

But LH total hours with the type must be very low and hardly relevant when compared to the hours operated by QF and SIA.


User currently offlineScyld From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 49462 times:

The rating has not a lot to do with it. They hardly ever use maximum thrust anyway.

User currently offlineeggync From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 48900 times:

I read an article before...... forget where it is from, that the reason RR uses 3 spool engine design is that:

1. Each stage can be run at their maximum performance in terms of RPM and power efficency
2. Should an engine upgrade or new engine is required, they can simply change each stage (for example bigger fan) or do a minor design update for a faster roll out!

correct me if i am wrong!


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 48803 times:

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 8):
Could the higher thrust rating of the Qantas A380's RR Trent 972 be responsible for the engine failure? If so, then the correct solution would be to derate them down to RR Trent 970 which would be the same as those of the A380 of both Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines which have proven to been safe so far as of right now.

QF wanted that rating because they felt that they needed it for some of their mission profiles. It makes sense. Australia is somewhat more isolated from most A380 markets than Singapore or Germany. If they have to de-rate their engines, they are going to be mighty miffed at RR because it will mean less payload on their longest routes, which is less revenue.

If you bought a truck with a certain torque and HP and a year later the manufacturer came to you and said, "we're terribly sorry, but we're going to have to de-rate your truck by 10% to make it safe," you wouldn't just take it lying down, especially if it cut into your ability to haul necessary items for your business.


User currently offlineScyld From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 48723 times:

Essentially, each shaft of a three shaft engine can rotate at a more optimum speed (so the IP compressor blades can rotate faster than if - say for example - they were attached to the LP shaft). This means less compressor stages are needed to obtain the same pressure rise.

less stages = shorter, lighter engine. The shorter engine is also stiffer, meaning less flexing, and - in theory - less rubbing of rotating components, so less wear = less maintenance.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17001 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 48581 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
I think the fans are bigger for higher efficiency and slower because they have to be slower to keep the tip speeds subsonic.

As mentioned by gasturbineengr, fan tips do indeed go supersonic. This creates a distinctive buzzsaw sound on take-off.

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 8):
Could the higher thrust rating of the Qantas A380's RR Trent 972 be responsible for the engine failure? If so, then the correct solution would be to derate them down to RR Trent 970 which would be the same as those of the A380 of both Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines which have proven to been safe so far as of right now.

I think that the lower thrust rating limit of 70,000 lbs per engine on both EA and RR Trent 970 may be the safest for the A380?

Or perhaps there may be a mechanical design flaw on the RR Trent 900 series that may explain why it is not as safe as the EA engines?

Calling them "not as safe" at this point is jumping to conclusions. There have been indications of various things but the investigation is far from concluded.

As mentioned in the earlier thread, RR has tested these engines to destruction at way beyond the maximum in-service rating. And they passed.

Simply lower the maximum rating by less than 3% tot he lower limit is no guarantee the problem will go away. Also, QF paid for the higher rating. If they didn't want/need it, they wouldn't have paid for it. Lowering the rating would cost uncounted millions in lost revenue. Never mind what it would do to RR's reputation, the validity of certification tests and so on and so forth.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineaussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 48447 times:

It seems things go from bad to worse for RR. With them placing an embargo on any A380 services operating with its Trent-900 engines. Cannot find anything from LH as yet either.

See below article . source: travel daily

"Singapore Airlines passengers who were set to depart London at 8.30am AEDST today are in the process of being transferred to hotels after the carrier told them that Rolls Royce has placed an "embargo" on any A380 services operating with its Trent-900 engines.

Rolls Royce is believed to have issued a special service bulletin for the engines, one of which exploded on QF32 out of Singapore last week and has left the Qantas A380 fleet grounded.

Singapore Airlines operates double daily A380 flights out of London, and it's not clear at this stage what the status of the next departure is.

The engine manufacturer yesterday issued a statement saying that it had "made progress in understanding the cause of the engine failure" on the Qantas flight, and "as a result a series of checks and inspections has been agreed with Airbus, with operators of the Trent 900 powered A380 and with the airworthiness authorities".

Singapore Airlines hasn't yet commented on the suspended departure."


User currently offlinegasturbineengr From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 7 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 47804 times:

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 2):
Someone might like to post the typical revs for each of the Trent spools at take-off

From the Trent 900 Type Certificate Data Sheet (Link)

HP, IP, LP 100% Ref Speed (rpm): 12,200; 8,300; 2,900

Max Speed at Takeoff: 97.8%; 98.7%; 97.2%

FYI.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 47497 times:

Quoting aussie747 (Reply 16):
It seems things go from bad to worse for RR. With them placing an embargo on any A380 services operating with its Trent-900 engines. Cannot find anything from LH as yet either.

See below article . source: travel daily

"Singapore Airlines passengers who were set to depart London at 8.30am AEDST today are in the process of being transferred to hotels after the carrier told them that Rolls Royce has placed an "embargo" on any A380 services operating with its Trent-900 engines.

Rolls Royce is believed to have issued a special service bulletin for the engines, one of which exploded on QF32 out of Singapore last week and has left the Qantas A380 fleet grounded.

Singapore Airlines operates double daily A380 flights out of London, and it's not clear at this stage what the status of the next departure is.

The engine manufacturer yesterday issued a statement saying that it had "made progress in understanding the cause of the engine failure" on the Qantas flight, and "as a result a series of checks and inspections has been agreed with Airbus, with operators of the Trent 900 powered A380 and with the airworthiness authorities".

Singapore Airlines hasn't yet commented on the suspended departure."

That doesn't really make sense. The part about agreed checks is old news from 2 or 3 days ago, and those checks have been done on all RR A380s. Maybe the specific A380 mentioned here has gone tech for some reason, maybe even because of an engine with abnormal test results, but there is no "embargo" (called grounding, generally).

[Edited 2010-11-09 16:57:15]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 748 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 46898 times:

Looks like new checks

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...engine-changes-20101110-17mwq.html


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 46760 times:

Interesting. It still looks like the first article was mixing things up.

Here, we have Rolls Royce (not the authorities) that is recommending 3 engine changes to SQ.

At least that tells us the "thrust theory" is not likely to be the good one.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 46323 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
At least that tells us the "thrust theory" is not likely to be the good one.

Agreed - the recurrent terms lately are 'oil leaks' and 'oil staining.'

"The airline said that Rolls-Royce had recommended further detailed inspections of three engines – one on each aircraft – as a "result of oil staining".

"This is to ensure that the cause of the oil staining can be determined," a spokesman said."


Neither Rolls Royce nor the airlines are answering the '64-dollar questions' - has the cause of the oil problem been ascertained, and can the affected engines be repaired? Engine changes would appear to be a 'stopgap' solution only.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 46045 times:

TravelToday are reporting an engine change on SQ A380
http://www.travelweekly.com.au/getat...e4-4f34-bf05-413d784c1c4f/pdf.aspx


User currently offlineDizzy777 From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 45396 times:

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 8):
A380 of both Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines which have proven to been safe so far as of right now.

3 SQ grounded, no word on how long..

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8122000


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2086 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 42942 times:

IMO, because of the higher thrust rating of the Qantas A380-842 aircraft, the fault surfaced FIRST on these engines. In this case the combination : relative high cycle (flight hours) and higher thrust rating did the trick.
The exact why there is (to hot) oil on places where it is not supposed to be is the key question and has to be resolved very soon by RR.

In the mean time the question remains : how safe is further operation of the current Trent 900 engines.

During my (limited)encounter with borescoping engines (CF6-50 and JT9D, not on RR) a few years ago, I always found it very difficult to notice small dis-colourings due high temperature spots or oil leak spots in the gas path. The location of the borescope plug holes is never optimal, you never can check all (hidden) spots. Probably the suspected spot cannot been seen during borescope inspections, otherwise RR didn't demand prolonged, complicated ground tests.
So, I am very curious how you can check a local internal high temperature spot properly, without tearing down the complete (intermediate) turbine section of the engine.
Oil checks (filter checks) don't reveal much, if the oil is trapped inside the engine and is not scavaged back. Seen the few temperature measuring points in normal (non test) engines it's also very demanding to trace a local temperature increase, while trending the engine or making a test run. Also delta EGT and/or RPM indications will probably be minimal and not detectable, before the fatal failure occurs.

Especially worrying is the continued SQ operation* in this respect. Singapore has the highest cycle/hours engines in their inventory, luckily for them they only operate the lower thrust version. But statistically, with higher cycles/hours, the probability of this kind of failure increases.
The first ground checks didn't reveal any (impending) failures, but now (after new and hopefully better checks) suddenly three more suspected engines are spotted.
I was surprised over the very fast press release of SQ that everything was normal with their engines, after the first ground checks, knowing how difficult these failures are to trace.


I hope safety prevails above economics and wish the authorities wisdom in these difficult circumstances.

* = LH operates relative low cycle/hours, lower rated engines.

[Edited 2010-11-10 00:50:30]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
25 QFFlyer : I agree, I was aware that SQ had a few suspect engines and that at least one engine change was required, on Saturday. Four days later we have this ne
26 ua777222 : Sorry if already answered--I haven't poured through the madness yet--but is each airline doing the 8 hour-per-engine inspection or has Rolls-Royce sen
27 BOEING747400 : Aren't the EA 7000 series engines immune from the same problems as RR Trent 900 series on the A380 fleet because of a different design and make?
28 VHHYI : Anyone know many hours the RR powered A380's were up in the air during the test program, and the thrust they ran at? Did any reach around ~8000hrs on
29 musicrab : I'm going to be polite here (I hope!) What's wrong with the above statement. Let's see. 1. do we know what the exact problem is? No. 2. Comparing the
30 Post contains links musicrab : I know its early days in the engine investigations but, as has already been mentioned, oil is one of the current theories being floated around. Rolls-
31 tepidhalibut : Personally, I don't know, but what number would you like to see? For comparison, the GE90 must have achieved 10 million hours in service, and individ
32 readytotaxi : What would Qantas be doing with their A380 pilots at the moment, are they flying other aircraft types or sat by the pool with a cold one waiting for t
33 Post contains links RubberJungle : Looks like Lufthansa is joining the A380 engine change, although this might be unrelated to QF. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-precautionary
34 Post contains links and images NAV20 : If I'm allowed a joke, and speaking as one who mainly flew sailplanes, my own opinion is that the only certain way to achieve true 'immunity' from en
35 jetlife2 : Others might respectfully disagree with this assertion.....
36 Post contains links musicrab : Blimey, there are some terrible "news" articles appearing at the moment. Look at http://www.ausbt.com.au/unknown-a380-concerns-mean-more-delays Phrase
37 SEPilot : Isn't RR the only Western manufacturer who makes three spool engines? Aren't all the others two spool? And if so, how can you say that they are follo
38 jupiter2 : Does anybody know if the camera installed on the belly has it's images recorded and stored ? If the images are stored they may have recorded some of t
39 Aesma : They could do some training, at least.
40 Post contains images Starlionblue : On how to handle engine failures.
41 Post contains links cosmofly : PPRUNE has the following. Latest EASA emergency AD: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...contained-2-engine-failure-38.html ...." Analysis of the pr
42 Post contains images comorin : Man, that is some scary stuff . Hats off to the QF pilots for an amazing job. Modern day unsung heroes.[Edited 2010-11-10 18:36:31]
43 thegeek : Ouch!! Thanks for that list. Sounds like the media weren't scaremongering when they reported that the damage was serious.
44 BoeingVista : Not good at all, crew obviously did a fantastic job. In practical terms though what can you do if an engine comes apart like that? There is going to
45 Post contains links gemuser : Now that's scarey! Latest ATSB at: http://www.atsb.gov.au/newsroom/news.../qantas-airbus-a380-singapore.aspx released at 10:15 11 Nov 2010 EADST (UTC
46 thegeek : They were my first thoughts on reading about the fuel being trapped in the tail tank. Most likely it would be just like every landing in the MD11 with
47 tdscanuck : That was another three-piece split. Once piece went up and punctured the wing, starting the fire that eventually wrote off the aircraft. One piece we
48 SSTsomeday : So a fire in that area of the engine is not detectable? Or was fire for a VERY brief prior to causing the catsotphic failure? Wow. I had NO idea it w
49 gemuser : Discussed above or earlier part. She has a third system that is electric/hydraulic (if I understood what poster were saying) Gemuser
50 kanban : would be nice to see some pictures under the wing... The hole in the upper could condemn the wing to scrap, however it looked like an exit hole...whe
51 thegeek : Sort of. There is a current thread in Tech/Ops about this. There are two ship-wide systems, as well as local systems called EHAs and EBHAs, so it is
52 Aesma : The list is scary however a lot of things are linked. For example if for whatever reason you shut down an engine, you're gonna lose a generator, it co
53 BoeingVista : UA232 faulty maintenance, engine left wing but did not suffer uncontained failure as such, EL AL (from memory) engine also departed the airplane, did
54 thegeek : Actually in UA232 the centre engine was the problem. What is your definition of an uncontained failure? I would have thought that any failure which ca
55 Aesma : There is no need for a container vessel, there is an A380 ship (two, in fact, but I don't know if the second is in service yet) that can handle the j
56 Post contains images EstorilM : Well, they didn't NEED to worry about dumping fuel on the left side, due TO the massive fuel leaks/damages that caused it in the first place. Wow so..
57 kanban : Nice ship, however could the production line stand it being on a special run for a month? even if they have two available. I suggested the conatiner
58 thegeek : You've lost me here. I thought it was safe-life?
59 tdscanuck : The discs are usually safe life (they might all be, but I'm not positive about that). That's on the engine design side...there's no economic way to b
60 Starlionblue : There were pics of the plume. As tdscanuck said way back the plume was nowhere near as thick as what you get when you dump fuel. Yes, but you still h
61 Aesma : That's what I'm not sure I understand. Sure, you have two tanks leaking, but at what rate ? You also only have one engine left on that side, and lost
62 eggync : If I remember correctly, to-day......... only RR uses 3 spool engine design. GE and PW still uses 2 spool HP/LP design! US manufacturers' design path
63 mbj2000 : That was also my thought. Thank god for that "over-designed" wing...
64 Klaus : That may effectively have been one of the most critical issues - particularly since redundant control lines / buses should be feasible with all-digit
65 747classic : Reading this thread I find it curious that a fair amount of repliers think that this "only an uncontained engine failure". My thought are that Qantas
66 vfw614 : Slightly OT, but I cannot help thininking about the coincidence that after Airbus screwed up the A380 delivery schedule thanks to wiring issues, Boein
67 musicrab : Don't think so. It was clear from Day1 :- wing damage; fluid leak(s); hydraulic failure(s); engine control issue.
68 N14AZ : After all we know now, I find it quit amazing how "cool" the pilot talked during his announcement (see youtube videos). He must have seen the damage f
69 Post contains links Lumberton : The LH engine change out will exhaust the supply of spare engines. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...0Airline%20Operations&channel=comm
70 Post contains links gemuser : To see the actual EASA AD, see: http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2010-0236-E I image the Australian & SIN AD went out this afternoon. Gemuser
71 ltbewr : Assuming that oil leaks are the main cause of failure, I am unsure as to where the alleged oil leaks are located. I am presuming that it is in the mai
72 Post contains images Klaus : In the 12 o'clock position the fragment would only have impacted the pylon of the #2 engine itself (and during disintegration that may well have been
73 Post contains links trent1000 : Here's a summary of damage and general updates in today's news: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...wreck/story-e6frfq80-1225952363505 With that (k
74 Post contains images Klaus : More a distorted, at least partially inaccurate and throughly sensationalized tabloid writeup in the usual "Oh my god! We're all going to die" style.
75 EstorilM : Okay so that simply means that the leak could be anywhere south of a few thousand pounds per minute haha, well in that case everything is peachy!
76 EstorilM : Ugh, that's disgusting. I got through one sentence and closed the tab. I have NO idea how that individual is in the journalism business when he's obv
77 tdscanuck : -The wing damage didn't hurt the aircraft's ability to fly, as it's designed to do. -The hydraulic system redundancy worked, as it's designed to do.
78 Post contains images EstorilM : Well said, and to a certain extent I'd imagine it's somewhat vindicating for the engineers as well. Figure the 777 has been flying for AGES without a
79 747classic : My statement was AROUND the 12 o'clock position. The large disc fragment could just pass the pylon and could be thrown with full centrifugal forces u
80 frmrCapCadet : Wonder how long this plane could have continued to fly, were the failure have happened hours into the flight.
81 Post contains links readytotaxi : An interesting video clip from the BBC about RR. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11714095
82 EstorilM : Interesting thought! AKA in the middle of the ocean? I wonder if the #1 engine was pulling fuel from a tank which was totally isolated from the leaki
83 Post contains images Klaus : Yes, but right next to the enging the IPT would not have hit the wing at all on the outboard side and at most the leading edge device on the inboard
84 Aesma : Well, now we know they had a spare, unlike other airlines. I don't really understand that sentence, the spare is there exactly for that reason. It di
85 Post contains images EstorilM : Well first of all, that quote was in response to the hypothetical failure over water in ETOPS rules (don't worry people, I know discussions over the
86 Aesma : The A380 is not an ETOPS plane. And LROPS is not a done deal yet. So you might wanna say "if that happened hours away from any suitable landing strip"
87 Post contains images EstorilM : Oh. Right. Four engines. Yikesss excuse me while I go delete my anet account haha, I've failed at life. No idea how that went over my head lol. Yes,
88 Klaus : That's explicitly one of the functions of the rudder. The issue would certainly be the additional drag of windmilling defective engines and of the ru
89 max550 : Thanks to everyone providing their technical knowledge, I really like learning about how it all works. What kind of spares inventory do the airlines a
90 747classic : That's exactly the crux (point) of my entire statement in my two replies about the extra ground inspections : "hope" is in my perception of a safe, s
91 Post contains links and images readytotaxi : from the Rolls Royce web site. http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/pro.../largeaircraft/trent_900/index.jsp As part of the Trent family of engines, it pr
92 Aesma : My statement was somewhat misleading anyway, the rules aren't there to prevent any crash to ever happen. For example ETOPS allows 2 IFSD per 100 000
93 pliersinsight : What does ETOPS have to do with an A380 which has 4 engines. The T in ETOPS stands for twin folks.
94 litz : This has happened twice (that I know of) on 767s ... one in Pittsburgh (?), and one at LAX. the LAX incident wrote off the aircraft ... it was seriou
95 Post contains links tdscanuck : That hasn't true for 3 years now. The FAA revised FAR 121.161 back in 2007...ETOPS is now "ExTended OPerationS" and applies to all aircraft. The only
96 tepidhalibut : And applies to all NEW aircraft from that point. Not being retrospectively applied. I wonder if the 748 will have to meet them... No comparable chang
97 pliersinsight : Me and my outdated memory stand corrected. Thank you.
98 SEPilot : Yes; it is (as I have gathered) just behind the combustion section, but not where combustion is supposed to take place. UA232 is the only case I am a
99 Post contains images kiwimex : The ultimate redundancy would be cockpit mounted lasers sending encrypted instructions directly to engines/control surfaces when the cables are all s
100 Post contains links tayser : http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...er-peak-period-20101111-17pec.html A380s out for summer peak period Matt O'Sullivan and Andrew Heasley November
101 BOEING747400 : What will happen to that Qantas A380 aircraft with a damaged engine & wing? Will it have to be retired completely or it'll come back into service
102 litz : This is as-of-yet, an unknown. However ... (Holiday Inn Express "expert opinion" time) Considering the cost of a replacement airplane (considerable)
103 Post contains links LTC8K6 : Left wing forward spar huh? http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/qan...holes/story-e6frf7jo-1225952336279 Damage to the A380: MASSIVE fuel leak in the lef
104 Post contains images Klaus : No doubt – the root cause of the incident must be identified so it becomes possible to actually quantify the risks involved. Actually, that would b
105 Post contains links and images ULMFlyer : Oil fire suspected in Trent 1000 failure: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...01_2010_p0-251440.xml&channel=comm Rolls-Royce says failure of Tr
106 Post contains images PITingres : I find it intriguing that the Herald Sun list is almost identical to the PPRUNE list reported by user cosmofly in reply 41, even down to the wording
107 Post contains links cpd : News.com.au is mounting a heavy attack on the A380 and Airbus: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...wreck/story-e6frfq80-1225952363505 I've never re
108 trent1000 : Link already posted: see reply 73 - and subsequently flamed at reply 74 & 76... Note, I didn't say it was a good/accurate article. I simply poste
109 tayser : It's a News Corp Tabloid, what do you expect?
110 Starlionblue : Well, I wasn't there. But that is what has been reported
111 cpd : Too many replies here, too hard to keep track of everything. I posted a comment to that article, heavily criticising it. I doubt it'll be published.
112 ozglobal : Correction: News Corp is Murdoch tabloid: think Fox News, Fleet street tabloid, etc. What does Murdoch hate more than liberals and Democrats? - The E
113 thegeek : By your criteria you may be correct. It happened to some Il-62s, but they are not Western. I guess if the El Al one was a failure of the pylon rather
114 Post contains links timpdx : another interesting read http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40139560/ns/travel-news/
115 gasturbineengr : I thought it might be interesting to analyze and interpret a little from here, now that official information is available in the form of the EASA AD
116 Post contains links gemuser : New info on ATSB site including maps of engine debris recovery locations & aircraft flight path: http://www.atsb.gov.au/newsroom/news.../qantas-ai
117 Post contains links NAV20 : Finally some unalloyed good news! "ROLLS-Royce will tonight announce that it has worked out solutions to the engine problem that has grounded Qantas's
118 DocLightning : I was wondering when that was going to happen... Now what?
119 GBan : If they have already modified engines in the production line - does this mean the problem was already known and fixed before the Qantas event?
120 Post contains links Flying Belgian : Nice feature from Great Circle Mapper: http://bit.ly/9fastC A map with the 9 stuck airplanes. Is it up to date by the way ? FB.
121 Burkhard : 4 are on D-AIMD . 10 or 20 cycles. 4 on D-AIME, have flown it to Hamburg. 4 on D-AIMF have flown it to Hamburg, not needed for a while. So there as m
122 Post contains links mdword1959 : Here are some further details: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ntas-a380s-engine-rolls-royce.html
123 hawker : Channel 10 Australia news reported that the A380 wing can only be changed in the factory. Wonder if this is based on industry advice.
124 QFFlyer : The wing will not be changed, if needed it is cheaper to build a new plane. Currently OQA is under ATSB control, so full repair assessment can't star
125 musicrab : So what component will that likely equate too? Any ideas?
126 Aesma : I doubt they're already modified, I'm thinking they mean they'll do some swapping because the already used engine might need some more work.
127 kiwimex : The lawyers will be rubbing their hands with glee, if that's the case. Hopefully what it really means is that they're working 24/7 right now modding
128 Soyuz : Ouch, what a shame if such a shiny, relatively new aircraft would be written off due to what superficially appears to be relatively minor damage. Of
129 747classic : Thanks for your professional written background article about the emergency AD consequences. I noticed however a few items that are in my perception
130 XT6Wagon : I don't know how you can call this "relatively minor damage" Its severe by any standards I know of. Even if the structure is completely intact, there
131 Burkhard : I'm sure the aircraft will be fixed as much as needed to ferry it to TLS, and reappear in the skies 6 months later with a new wing. Only the shares of
132 NAV20 : Only a guess - but pretty well all bearings require lubrication, whereas jet engine turbines run at such high temperatures that any oil that leaks in
133 Post contains links musicrab : From http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/bu...ss/global/13air.html?_r=1&src=tptw "investigators have isolated a problem in the air-transfer tube in
134 AustrianZRH : Damn aliens. Probably bribed by the US to sabotage the European aviation industry. I heard Elvis is in command... On topic, could someone familiar wi
135 Post contains links Lumberton : Faulty bearing box per John Leahy. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101112/ap_on_bi_ge/superjumbo_woes
136 Post contains links eugegall : Just in case any of you high flyers have a trent 900 in your PA 28 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20101110EASAEAD20100236E.pdf
137 Post contains links fxramper : Rolls Royce says my bad and will fix the problem on the Trent 900. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40146414/ns/travel/[Edited 2010-11-12 06:18:06]
138 SEPilot : Probably because of jigs that they use to get the wing in exactly the right orientation to the rest of the plane. There is likely only one set in exi
139 NAV20 : May LOOK like that, kiwimex, but the real-life problem is more complex. Under the 'power by the hour' deal that Qantas/RR operate on, the engines rem
140 mham001 : They can't possibly do that if they are required by contract to supply (good) engines to Qantas.
141 Post contains images NAV20 : The contract will undoubtedly include a 'best endeavours' clause. To 'succeed,' Qantas would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that RR did not ju
142 musicrab : That's the 60 million dollar question.
143 cosmofly : Glad to see that RR already has a solution in production prior to this incident. Presumably RR knew it is a potential issue but did not expect the ear
144 musicrab : It's already been stated that engines would be swapped with "already modified ones from the production line", so I think the answer is yes.
145 747classic : I wouldn't be amused to hear your statement, if I had been a passenger on that Qantas aircraft. Especially the last part. If one fragment of engine #
146 musicrab : And, amongst 1 or 2 other things, No1 could not be shut off by using the fire switch...
147 SEPilot : It sounds to me that RR did not realize the potential for the disc to rupture until it actually did. If they had, they would have undoubtedly had a r
148 musicrab : That didn't come out right! But I know what you mean.
149 AustrianZRH : How's the workload on RR's production line? After all, A claimed to deliver something like 45 A380s a year in 2010, so maybe they (RR) can increase t
150 SEPilot : This has not received as much attention as other problems, but I do think this is a serious oversight in the A380 design. I would think that the wire
151 NAV20 : VERY fair comment and I sincerely hope that Airbus are already giving that point serious attention.
152 777236ER : In your vast engineering experience, what is the safety case for 'inability to shut down engine'? The A380 uses two routes to control spar valves and
153 Bongodog1964 : Their analysis probably marked this part down as one which would probably require replacing at overhaul, and deserving of a rethink in order to produ
154 Post contains links Lumberton : Another one, Qantas? Allegedly 767 this time. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...ngine-problem-the-age-reports.html True? False? Edit: CNBC report
155 Post contains images NAV20 : Just meant in fun, 777236ER - but, basically, if the bloody thing won't shut down when it's told to, it just might blow up..... Relatively simple eng
156 777236ER : Not in combination with another failure it won't. Basic safety engineering. Please read what I wrote, there ARE two independent routes, to both the l
157 kanban : patching is one thing, ensuring there is no fatigue stress cracking, and limiting potenetial crack growth is a problem (not insurmountable, but a pro
158 SEPilot : As I said, if you were at takeoff power and lost control of the engine, especially with the A380 which has only two thrust reversers, I can easily im
159 777236ER : Nonsense. Without control of the FADEC the engine would remain at t/o power. The inability to control it or shut it down is not a catastrophic or haz
160 Klaus : The engine continuing to operate normally as it did after losing communication seems quite a bit less severe than the loss of hydraulic lines to me,
161 litz : Except, in the case of this incident ... the flying bits o' turbine knocked out the ability to transfer fuel ... - litz
162 LTC8K6 : So what do you want the engine to do if it loses it's control signaling? Do you want it to shut down, or keep doing what it was last told to do? I thi
163 777236ER : I doubt it, I can't see how 'loss of ability to control engine' will be any worse than a 'major' safety classification, as defined by the FAA and EAS
164 Klaus : Well, if it is considered to have infinite energy, it will depart the engine in a straight radial path from its mounting position. and as far as I'm
165 777236ER : It's considered to have infinite energy in the sense that it will take out everything it hits, it can depart the engine out of plane. No. 'Extremely
166 Klaus : My point is more about the conceptual design of the redundant systems. I don't have reason to actually assume that in this case, but the cost and eff
167 SEPilot : But apparently the ability to transfer fuel was compromised as well. I can easily imagine that landing with an outboard engine at TO power could be d
168 Post contains images astuteman : I wonder just how much "oversight" you think the design of the A380 had.... It is certified to the very highest and latest standards. So Airbus are i
169 Klaus : Absolute immunity has never been the point of redundancy - not least because it would be an illusion anyway. It's about an investment in redundancy a
170 SEPilot : Perhaps I worded it a bit strongly, but when the first significant malfunction in the type takes out both wiring bundles that were supposed to be red
171 Post contains links JamBrain : To understand the modules in a Trent:- http://www.rolls-royce.com/Images/gasturbines_tcm92-4977.pdf quote Module 05 intermediate pressure (IP) turbin
172 Post contains links and images N14AZ : I wonder if this issue does also affect MSN 001. View Large View MediumPhoto © Christoph Meyer RC-Spotter F-WWOW is now flying since 2005, although n
173 Post contains links Lumberton : More on Leahy's comments and their potential impact on RR. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/RollsR...brink-apf-1072709782.html?x=0&.v=1
174 dl1011 : JamBrain, Great link! Thx.
175 kiwimex : Someone with parachute experience, perhaps?
176 BOEING747400 : Are people still feeling safe flying RR powered A380s as of right now? Or they're all switching to using EA powered A380s until they regain confidence
177 tdscanuck : You have to take a position...in the event of loss of command, the engine needs to have a definite behavior. "Do what you were last told to do" has b
178 Starlionblue : I agree with NAV20 on this one. This is not the movies where company executives act like squabbling children. Having lawyers shouting at each other i
179 prebennorholm : Personally I would prefer an RR powered A380. Reason: The Trent 900 is - and will for the next couple of years be - the most closely monitored piece
180 thegeek : I'm confused about the status of engine #1 now. If it was completely isolated from cockpit control, and continued to do what it had previously been to
181 LTC8K6 : Well, it had to be stopped by the fire department with foam/water. Take from that what you will. Nothing is totally redundant.
182 comorin : As pointed out before, engine #1 was quite controllable in flight, it just couldn't be shutoff, as that's a different system.
183 Starlionblue : I think there's a diagram above. The engine can be throttled but since the fuel is gravity fed it cannot be shut off. Presumably it was at ground idle
184 thegeek : To my way of thinking, that implies that the throttle is redundant, but the fire switch isn't. I would hope I am incorrect on that one. It is also po
185 rottenray : One must ask, "proven to be safer than WHAT?" At this point it's very apparent that RR missed a bit in their original design - but it's also extremel
186 thegeek : So these controls do not have redundancy? Not sure what bottle-discharge is. Sorry, I didn't read all thread from part 1, but I don't think I'm going
187 Starlionblue : First off, the fire switch and the fuel shutoff are not the same. I don't know about the redundancy about those components. It would seem odd that on
188 BA319-131 : - I expect most passengers are quite intelligent and have figured out if pilots and crew work these things, they have nothing to worry about. - Silly
189 Starlionblue : On the contrary, I find most passengers fall into the category of "sheeple" and haven't the slightest idea what kind of plane they are getting on. To
190 hawker : An option no one has yet mentioned would be to take the fuselage back to France on the flat deck of a container ship. However I imagine delaying new p
191 JoeCanuck : The plane flew around for quite some time after the engine blew and landed without incident. I have no doubt it could be patched up well enough to mak
192 Post contains links art : Airbus now unsure of delivering 20 A380's in 2010 due to uncertainties over Trent-engined aircraft: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-incident-
193 Post contains links 747classic : Did the EASA relaxed a previous inspection order (AD) for the Trent 900 engine ? First AD about IP turbine section was released in January 2010, inspe
194 kanban : I think they were referring to the fire extinguisher bottle... and re: not reading the previous posts is like stepping into an elevator and saying "y
195 tdscanuck : Fire switch, throttle, and fuel cutoff (aka shutdown) are totally separate control circuits. You can kill any one of the three independently of all t
196 Post contains links and images rottenray : Very Monty Pythonesque! Here is a better photo of the top of the wing, I don't recall seeing it posted here: http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb41
197 Post contains links musicrab : Latest ATSB update. Not much news. Shame they don't have recorded cockpit audio from the orignal engine failure. Would have been interesting to hear.
198 Tristarsteve : Normal engine shut down is acheived from the engine master switch on the pedestal. Operating this switch to off sends a signal via the FADEC to the H
199 thegeek : Thanks for that TriStarSteve. That was exactly the sort of answer I was looking for. Presumably the four wires follow at least two separate paths to t
200 Post contains links and images Lumberton : I posted an earlier report that the pool of spares for the Trent 900 had been exhausted with the replacement of one an the LH A380. This article state
201 Post contains images Aquila3 : Hi everybody, this is my first post on A.net! Thanks for the hospitality! I am no aircraft expert, but I love them .... I am reading the forum from a
202 Post contains links musicrab : I'm very confused about the engine modification that RollsRoyce have stated will prevent future oil fires. It's been implied in a couple of posts (sam
203 tdscanuck : There is...the valve actuator itself. Unfortunately, a lot of other design trades mean you end up with a single valve actuator that's very close to t
204 2175301 : Am I the only person who has visions of some terrorist organization building a "wireless" gun that they could aim at an airplane during takeoff or la
205 Panman : 1. BP Turbo Oil 2197 2. Qantas approved AMEs and LAMEs. This also includeds certain non-routine items and defect rectifications also. pAnmAn.[Edited
206 Post contains images Aquila3 : Quoting tdscanuck: 1) providing that it will never accidentally shut down an engine I was thinking to a backup system that can work *ONLY* if the two
207 readytotaxi : How is the backlog at LAX for passengers who were stuck, has QF managed to clear it now?
208 Klaus : No, not really. The current WPA2 encryption is still considered uncracked. It only has certain vulnerabilities to participants who are already in pos
209 ikramerica : Are all four engines on any A380 the same, swappable? If so, QF should be able to keep 3 A380s in the air by swapping around so the 7 are replaced wit
210 tdscanuck : Yes. Although it's a lot of work to drop and ship an engine, so it would take them some time to move all of them around. Tom.
211 2175301 : You are already admitting that it has problems now with people who have the network keys - with the current state of technology; and I love how you s
212 Klaus : Each engine would have its own set of keys, so an attack on a specific engine would be far more unlikely than crashing and burning with the plane eve
213 Starlionblue : Apart from the security, issues, there is currently no economic justification to developing a wireless backup system because you only need it for one
214 Post contains images garynor : I can imagine a chip sending a byte or two amongst all the other gazillion bytes, just to say "I'm alive and well". It's not a bad idea for backup sy
215 Post contains images Klaus : Not any more once you've racked up all the development, validation and certification costs...! Pure manufacturing cost would probably be almost negli
216 Starlionblue : And I wouldn't disagree with your reasoning.
217 Post contains images Klaus : I see we're in the blissful absence of disagreement, then...!
218 2175301 : I am only going to respond to part of your post: I do know what reality is. Reality is that the system will have to be tested regularly - which gives
219 VHHYI : I hear it is now in the hands of the ATSB (and other investigators). Presumably no parts will come off it yet, apart from investigative reasons. The
220 Klaus : Sure, the issues you describe are relevant, the big question in the end is what the relative risks, costs and benefits are. A plane is not a stationa
221 DH2Beaver : It was a delight to see Singapore 747-400 9V SPO leaving Sydney yesterday morning - presumably operating SQ212 which is usually an A380. It's a little
222 PITrules : It would have been a huge safety issue if this flight needed to evacuate after landing, not to mention a hazard to ARFF personnel. I disagree, I'd ra
223 Starlionblue : Evacuation with half the doors operational in 90 seconds or less must be demonstrated for certification. It is an expected scenario. ARFF personnel a
224 PITrules : If the wheel brakes caught fire, now the ARFF has to deal with that, plus an engine which won't shut down. Why increase their workload and decrease s
225 aussie747 : Seems like Rolls Royce is going to be quite busy with the below. No mention yet as to where these adjustments will need to take place as yet. 14 QF A3
226 Post contains links cerecl : Only tangentially related, but boy, doesn't it pour when it rains... http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/...antas-flight-turns-back-to-sydney/ QF 17 (
227 nomadd22 : You mean half of 80 engines by any chance?
228 Starlionblue : Sorry I was talking about this specific case with the 380.
229 thegeek : If the #1 engine had been shut down, would this aircraft have been able to land? It had troubles with its fuel dump system, so may not have been ligh
230 Post contains images PITrules : No worries I dunno (gonna have to ask the A-380 experts on that one); but again I was responding to a hypothetical situation where an engine is not r
231 aussie747 : Only quoting the article, however those numbers do not add up QF only operate 6 aircraft so 14 out 26 need replacing, whilst for SQ they only operate
232 tdscanuck : It's already implemented. Most aircraft systems run on on-condition maintenance...that only works if they provide regular status so you know what the
233 Post contains links remcor : Aviation week has a nice update, although I'm not sure if it's already been posted, I haven't seen it as one of the links. http://www.aviationweek.com
234 Post contains links Asiaflyer : SQ has brought two of the three grounded A380 back into traffic. SINGAPORE: Singapore Airlines (SIA) has resumed flying two of three grounded Airbus
235 PITrules : I guess it depends on what you consider a huge safety issue. Valujet had a fire while taxiing out in ATL, which resulted in an evacuation and subsequ
236 Burkhard : If 40 need to be replaced or 80 in service and approx. 160 built, this should be sortable, but of course it costs many millions. The question is of c
237 Post contains links Lumberton : I posted this yesterday and now Reuters is picking up the story. Here's the Reuters article: Another 29 Airbus A380 engines may be replaced: report An
238 Post contains links 747classic : On all aircraft within the companies I have worked it was SOP to use only the (emergency) exits on the side, with the engines stopped. So, if after t
239 Revelation : Even if RR sends out a new bearing box, I can imagine it's going to be very manpower intense to install it. Something tells me the replacement campai
240 Post contains images NAV20 : Seems almost to be "Management by Objectives, Lecture 001," Revelation. In PR/marketing terms the priority for Airbus, RR, AND the affected airlines
241 astuteman : Although the A380 achieved 873 people evacuated out of the 8 slides on 1 side in 73 seconds. I would have thought 1 slide failing on the evacuation s
242 Lumberton : Couldn't agree more, NAV20. What Trent900 customers are scheduled for delivery next year? Any new ones, or QF, SQ, and LH?
243 Revelation : Indeed. I don't have an MBA, but I'd guess there's no sense in taking the new ones: all the parking places are being taken up by the old ones, sigh.
244 Post contains links Lumberton : NYT reports on the concern over spare engines. Airlines Worry Over Possible Shortage of A380 Engine Spares Did the QF replacement number just go up?
245 Bongodog1964 : QF's "much prized reputation" is that they have never had a fatal crash, nor lost an aircraft, how has this altered ? To the average passenger this i
246 Bongodog1964 : Two questions: It has been stated that RR already have an upgrade to the Trent900 which solves this problem, and that the engines at Tououse and Hambu
247 Post contains images Lumberton : Those are good questions but AFAIK RR or EADS haven't been forthcoming with all the answers. If I'm wrong, will someone oblige with the links? I beli
248 Revelation : Are you trying to say QF's reputation hasn't taken a hit after photos of pieces of its exploded engine being picked up by locals on an Indonesian isl
249 747classic : Maybe, but certification tests are performed in ideal circumstances, with pre-informed passengers, in a "not real" emergency. I had the privilege to
250 kellmark : I worked at Eastern Airlines, the first carrier to fly the Lockheed L1011 which had RR RB211 engines. This was the engine that basically bankrupted R
251 Post contains links moderators : This thread will be locked for further contributions. If you would like to continue your discussion on this topic, please feel free to contribute in p
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