cosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 648 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 60874 times:
usafdo From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 439 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 60248 times:
I wonder if Laredo airport has video survillence of the event that they will release to the press!
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 44 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 60223 times:
Perfect timing for Airbus and the A380. It takes the heat off those engine issues.
Bad press for airlines that have ordered both B787 and A380 (RR engined version). I just noticed, it has RR engines too! Wonder how long the media will take to link the incidents together?
It makes me wonder if there are issues relating to the Trent 1000 that RR are looking into but haven't been found yet while the 787 has been in testing..
Delimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 60054 times:
Flight test stuff. A bit different than having problems on a production plane.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 60021 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 6): Flight test stuff. A bit different than having problems on a production plane.
Bingo. I've seen an AEW&C and two 737NG test flights come back due to this very reason over the years. I've heard worse stories out of PAE with their heavies. It happens and that's why they test fly.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5962 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59941 times:
Quoting cosmofly (Reply 1): At least B gets the slide test done.
Well...kinda. The FAA wants it done with the maximum certified capacity on board with half of the exits disabled
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16943 posts, RR: 57 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59864 times:
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5962 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59794 times:
What if the problem lies in the test instrumentation wiring? Besides, how many scheduled flights a year get evacuated due to smoke in the cockpit? Maybe it was the captain's spilled coffee from two flights ago finally working its way down to where it could cause something to short...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16943 posts, RR: 57 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59636 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
What if the problem lies in the test instrumentation wiring?
Even if it was not a design fault, the investigation is likely to cause a delay, is it not?
N685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 450 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59579 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): Maybe it was the captain's spilled coffee from two flights ago finally working its way down to where it could cause something to short..
It wasn't the capt, it was the f/o. Stick to the story the way we rehearsed it.
cosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 648 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59503 times:
Per Jon's update, it looks B also tested the RAT and VFR in this incident.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4935 posts, RR: 9 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 59500 times:
I'll copy the last update from Jon's blog, it looks more serious than first thought :
Quote: Update 7:30 PM ET: A source familiar with the incident says ZA002 touched down in Laredo after a fire broke out in the aft electronics equipment bay causing the flight deck primary flight displays and auto throttle to fail, additionally the ram air turbine was deployed on landing. The aircraft landed in visual flight rules (VFR) conditions. This is a developing story and will be updated.
Aft electronics equipment bay : test equipment ? Let's hope so.
Dark primary flight displays, auto throttle failure and RAT deployed point to the aircraft's bay, however.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
N685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 450 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 59392 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 15): I'll copy the last update from Jon's blog, it looks more serious than first thought :
Quote:
Update 7:30 PM ET: A source familiar with the incident says ZA002 touched down in Laredo after a fire broke out in the aft electronics equipment bay causing the flight deck primary flight displays and auto throttle to fail, additionally the ram air turbine was deployed on landing. The aircraft landed in visual flight rules (VFR) conditions. This is a developing story and will be updated.
Aft electronics equipment bay : test equipment ? Let's hope so.
Dark primary flight displays, auto throttle failure and RAT deployed point to the aircraft's bay, however.
WOW!! That's pretty serious. Whether it was test equipment in the aft equip bay or not, it took out primary displays and a/t. It will probably be there at best a couple of days to repair all the wiring.
ADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1188 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 58824 times:
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 58759 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 10): 30-40 people on board, isn't that a lot ?
Not really.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 10): I thought Boeing was all about sensors and remote test crews ?
Telemetry is great for high risk flights, but it severely constrains your flight area (you have to maintain line-of-site to the ground station). You usually only use it for stuff like flutter.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): Even if it was not a design fault, the investigation is likely to cause a delay, is it not?
Depends...if the cause is obvious (e.g. faulty component) you can investigate the dead component offline while you replace it with a good one and get the aircraft back in the air.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 15): Aft electronics equipment bay : test equipment ? Let's hope so.
Dark primary flight displays, auto throttle failure and RAT deployed point to the aircraft's bay, however.
787 has both a fwd and aft EE bay, unlike most other Boeing's.
Quoting N685FE (Reply 16): Whether it was test equipment in the aft equip bay or not, it took out primary displays and a/t. It will probably be there at best a couple of days to repair all the wiring.
Depends on what died...a single failure can kill a bus, which can take down portions of most everything (which is why you have multiple displays and buses). Might just be R&R of a bad component...might be rebuilt an entire EE bay. Too early to tell. Obviously, continued safe flight and landing occurred, so that's a good thing.
N685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 450 posts, RR: 12 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 58439 times:
I read that quote as being all flight deck primary displays were lost. Not just one system. ie just the capt or f/o.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 56703 times:
a300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 56429 times:
Was this serious enough for NTSB to get involved in the investigation?
N685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 450 posts, RR: 12 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 56157 times:
Looks like the fd was ready. What would have happened if the airport fd got over zealous and poked a hole in the fuselage? We would have had our first field repair on the carbon composite. Hey, at least All Nippon is getting some free pr.
psp. lead by example
25 aeropiggot: Lets not lose sight that this is a test flight, they could have been testing how the more electric architecture shed load during an emergency, and so
26 klkla: Thanks for the link. This could be related to all the extra electonics on the aircraft and may not necessarily be a problem that would be encountered
27 cpd: The project would have been finished, absolutely finished - totally destroyed. And let's not lose sight of the fact that this is an incident, none-th
28 N685FE: Probably so, but it's still serious. How will this be listed? As an incident? There was definite damage with monetary value done to the a/c.
29 NIKV69: I think any time F&R is called to a landing they have to file a NTSB report and take pics but I doubt the NTSB went there.
30 vivekman2006: I wonder how ANA would react seeing footage of the plane in their livery broadcasted all over.
31 Mir: If all the displays (or more than half of them) went out, it would be. -Mir
32 soon7x7: While the photo is not clear...it almost appears as if the probe is penetrating above the cockpit...No...?
33 Wingscrubber: So much for the 'more electric' airplane! I will watch with interest the next saga of this 787 comedy The flying power substation principle was bound
34 DocLightning: You don't know the cause any more than we do.
35 tdscanuck: The quote I saw was "A source familiar with the incident says ZA002 touched down in Laredo after a fire broke out in the aft electronics equipment ba
36 DocLightning: Let's not lose sight that I'm pretty sure that a fire in the electronics bay was not on the morning's agenda.
37 cpd: I'm just interested in the movements of the GEnx ones at the moment, that's all. Yes, you are right in that respect, and I'd forgotten about the A320
38 kiwimex: Taking into consideration the fact that they've been sent out to the hardware store for a "long weight", I'd say pretty badly.
39 IndianicWorld: ANA must be happy to see their plane having issues already Pictures like that never look good for an airline, as people see the name and think it was
40 Stitch: It's not NH's plane. But since nobody was injured or died, it is likely already out of the News Cycle.
41 IndianicWorld: I well aware of that. The general public arent. That was my point.
42 Aesma: Might make Boeing think twice about painting a test plane with a customer livery, don't you think ? Airbus applied stickers of some customers on A380
43 KPDX: OMFG, really? I'm nevar gonna fly on one of those things now that I heard that!!!!1 /general public reaction off I trust Boeing will get this fixed,
44 PlaneHunter: Hard to believe they have ever been "reputable"... PH
45 rheinwaldner: Before EIS? But of course it would not end the program. Too many are sold. But it would have delayed the programs until the reason would have been in
46 Dizzy777: With the amount of problems and delays that the 787 has had, i think a list of "what went right" would be a shorter one. I fail to see how this is RR
47 cpd: Okay, fair enough. But the A330 certainly wasn't a sold to the airlines production model, was it? Was the PW version in service with airlines when it
49 slz396: Luckily they were able to land quickly as this sounds like this was a really serious event, not just 'some smoke from an undetermined source' but a re
50 brushpilot: the same fire during an ETOPS flight, the end of the story would be more scary... I guess they were not able to fly any longer.
51 UpperDeck: When asked to comment, the CEO of Qantas, who are due to receive 787s in, errm let's say 2015, said 'they found smoke where smoke shouldn't be...'
52 aviationweek: All 787s have been grounded today whilst Boeing examines the data from ZA002. Full story on Aviation Week: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...nded
54 keesje: I'm not aware of the 787 cockpit systems / display architecture. I assume a lot of redundancy is build in. Everything going black (as reported) + some
55 Lumberton: Guy Norris reporting. Boeing says primary flight displays were not lost. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
56 keesje: Reports said The fire affected the cockpit controls and the jet lost its primary flight displays and its auto-throttle, according to a person familiar
57 slz396: It can, and it may have provided back up power to the cockpit instruments, which would then explain why some say the 787 lost primary instruments, wh
58 b707forever: If this needed to happen to learn something and fix something it's good it was during a test flight and not after it went into service. No doubt a P.R
59 francoflier: I can't believe that after 60 posts I'm the first one congratulating the flight crew on another display of airmanship. I know they are test pilots and
60 Lumberton: So this could have been part of the safety protocols? As in "in case of fire...deploy RAT...just in case..." ?
62 UpperDeck: If the PFD was lost, would the HUD still function?
63 tdscanuck: Depends on what data they were up to collect...if you get the data you went out to get, it's a successful test (not necessarily a successful flight t
64 SEPilot: This is why they have such an extensive test program. Any predictions of more delays, dire consequences, and questioning whether it will kill the prog
65 Northwest727: Oh yes, the NTSB would have been immediately notified: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...LE=49&PART=830&SECTION=5&TYPE=TEXT
66 CM767: Not necessarily, The A330 program survived a crash during testing, and Boeing and Braniff lost a brand new 707 just 2 years after the program achieve
67 Northwest727: Not to mention that the BAC 1-11 had a crash that killed everyone on board due to deep stall problems during testing, yet it became highly successful
68 airtechy: The engineer in me has to ask......why not? Assuming the fire suppressant is not damaging to electronics of course. Do they still use Halon? You woul
69 KPDX: Argh....could you please stop using facts? It's starting to bother some people on here I am sure.
70 Aesma: Is an electronics bay accessible in flight ? There were 30-40 people on board, not PAX but technicians/engineers/specialists, maybe they could have do
71 Mir: Depends. If it was just the screen going out, then yes. But eventually the avionics driving the PFD and HUD go back to the same source, and if the fa
72 xaapb: According to flight aware flight was going to KHRL Harlingen Rio Grande Valley Airport can anyone confirm this please? thanks Jorge
73 PlanesNTrains: Even in Seattle, it was just a brief blurb. Hard to imagine too many future ANA passengers learning of the incident. The A320 crash was a big deal be
74 jreuschl: Boeing is grounding the ENTIRE 787 fleet (to focus on "ground tests") while they investigate this. Why? Wouldn't this cause more issues with the test
75 cosmofly: Is it a good idea to put the aft EE bay next to the center tank? Very good fire detection and suppression should be a default.
76 YULWinterSkies: Well, that 's a very unfortunate incident, and good it did not crash. However, if you look at the A330, it did have a crash during testing, killing a
77 xero9: I'm curious.. Why does Boeing/Airbus paint their test aircraft in an airlines livery long before it's delivered? Shouldn't it be in their own until t
78 Stitch: Sometimes the customer desires it for PR purposes. NH was the launch customer for the 787 and they were originally going to take delivery of ZA002.
79 rsomerfield: If I'm not mistaken, launch customers tend to get this treatment for promotional use.
80 Aesma: I agree that if anything the A320 crash was worse than the A330 one. But it was after delivery, the crash happened during a charter flight with an AF
81 flood: A rather bleak assessment from Leeham: http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2010...1/10/assessing-787-in-flight-fire/ The two main points - cascading failu
82 keesje: from the picture in reply 54 it could be concluded that the FW EE bay is powered via the aft EE bay, contrary to conventional aircraft. ( Probably has
83 mrskyguy: Sounds to me like the Thales ISFD finally got a serious workout.
84 DocLightning: Predictions of more delays (which Boeing has already hinted at) are not wildly exaggerated. Dire consequences and program-killers are wild, I agree.
85 pliersinsight: Sec. 830.5 Immediate notification. The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the [[Page 598]] Armed Forces or an int
86 EPA001: Of course, but they can not take the risk of losing an aircraft and test crew. Certainly not at this point in time. it is all very dissappointing, bu
87 Rabenschlag: It has made it to the NYT and a delay towards 2Q 2011 is predicted: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/business/11boeing.html?hpw
88 sankaps: Re the A320 and A330 crashes: both of those crashes occured during "non-standard" conditions or flight modes... the A320 was attempting a low fly-by t
89 Klaus: But that is exactly where redundant and defect-tolerant design comes in: Prevention of cascading failures through blocking of damage propagation is p
90 flood: I'm beginning to think even 2Q may be a little optimistic. If Jon and Leeham's sources are correct, there was a series of cascading failures which we
92 keesje: A year ago someone in the Seattletimes commented on posible risks of combining high electrical power / heat and composites. http://blogs.crikey.com.au
93 jreuschl: I obviously take back my previous statement of not understanding why they grounded the whole fleet. This isn't good for Boeing. At least it was in the
94 WarpSpeed: And, there is no way of knowing whether this Nostradamus of the electro-composite world should receive "credit" until we have conclusive findings fro
95 SEPilot: Delays from other problems, yes. Delays from this event, it is too early to tell. Although information posted since my original post indicates that t
96 flood: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be surprised if they carried out these electrical load tests in flight. Wouldn't it be far more practical and sa
97 Lumberton: I was wondering the same thing. It would seem to be that the prudent thing would have been to conduct these on the ground if the intent was to determ
98 Klaus: I don't know any details, but theoretically they could have multiple tests campaigns overlapping each other, particularly when testing longer-term st
99 PlanesNTrains: Well, the point being of course that 24 hours after the Airbus' accidents, there were many questions and few answers. That's the point that we are at
100 bikerthai: Overtaxing of the environmental system may be a valid statement. But saying that composite enclosure (whether it be a rack or the airframe) limit the
101 glideslope: Excellent post. Too bad it took so long. Not even do to an A vs B thing.
102 flood: Jon reported ZA002 has now been moved off the taxiway to a secure area on the airport. Laredo, Texas. Over 700,000 people in the metro area and zero a
103 keesje: I think both the early A320 and A330 crashes were pilot error..[Edited 2010-11-10 13:56:17]
104 nycbjr: Don't forget there was a inflight decompression followed by an emergency landing for the 777 during testing. This is is far more serious for sure, but
105 Viscount724: A second BAC-111 was also written off in a non-fatal landing accident during the test program.
106 wahdadli: Ahhh no, not good at all for the A380 and Airbus.. BIG difference... one is a TEST plane (B787) and inherently things will go wrong thats why its a T
107 Aither: At 3 months from the first delivery I would say the 787 status is more than just a "test plane". They should test the IFE and the toilets right now,
108 abba: Just wonder why they will do such tests in flight? Couldn't they have been done when grounded? Abba
109 Klaus: I don't say they definitely did in this case, but the whole reason for test flights is that you simply can't validate your planning and simulations e
111 Lumberton: Here's Boeing's press release on the incident: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1513
112 DocLightning: I'm going to guess that EIS will be 3Q2011, maybe 4Q.
113 N685FE: It seems like Boeing is playing with words to minimize their image. Initial reports said the primary flight display (pfd) failed. It did not say whic
114 PITingres: And Boeing said, quite definitively, that it didn't. So who was playing with words? Or was it simple mis-information? And your evidence for this beli
115 DocLightning: And Boeing specifically said that it was not true. I do hope that the damage was as minor as Boeing makes it sound. Jon's post made it sound worse th
116 kl671: Sorry about introducing more facts, but the Bristol type 175 Britannia is another example of a prototype crashing during development testing. Alas th
117 ikramerica: Initial reports had the A380 crashing, too. And had a missile hitting TWA800. And a bomb blowing up the AA A300 flight over Queens. Initial reports a
118 ER757: Latest from KING-TV in Seattle. Their aviation reporter interviewed Scott Fancher and here's a recap http://www.king5.com/news/local/Fire...87-Dreamli
119 ikramerica: Could have been an installation issue. For example, house fires aren't generally caused by design issues (poorly designed wires or switches). They ar
120 tdscanuck: The only really effective way to fight an electrical fire is to remove the power source. Suppression doesn't really work because it's not really a "f
121 kanban: electrical bonding and grounding has always been a high priority QA issue, and with the new fuselage materials probably more critical. I understand t
122 EstorilM: Hahaha grounding. Wow. I hadn't even thought about that issue in a composite airframe. That must be all kinds of fun.
123 tdscanuck: The first 9 slides of this presentation give an interesting view of the difficulty in modelling these types of systems: http://www2.laas.fr/IFIPWG/Wo
124 kanban: ... difficulty in a layman understanding engineering jargon you mean...
125 rsomerfield: Here's another GREAT example of the media's fact checking (or lack thereof) http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/sh...turbulence-hits-hightech-jets.html
126 scouseflyer: Didn't EK have that sort of issue in one of the A380s and a pair of EK pliers were found in the bay where they'd been causing arcing?
127 oldtimer: Most aircraft I worked on in my long career, DC10, L1011, Comet, BAe146 had access to the E & E bays during flight and the DC10 and L1011 had acc
128 Klaus: Certainly unpleasant. What were the typical failure scenarios and secondary damage in such cases?
129 sankaps: The Britannia, BAC 1-11 etc test flight accidents occured in another era, well before the introduction of CAD/CAM and all of the new design and testi
130 jreuschl: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...013400297_boeing11.html?cmpid=2727 Also concerning is the supplier issues, again...
131 Tristarsteve: But it is not a new idea. The Tristar had a large Mid Electrical Service Centre behind the lower galley. All the electrical system was in there. You
132 rheinwaldner: This link contains many statements from Boeing. In the light of past 787 PR I shudder when I read such things. To realize how twisty the propaganda i
133 keesje: It is true you have to almost reverse engineer official information and look for what is not adressed to get a feeling of what is really going on.. B
134 tdscanuck: It depends if you get a pneumatic duct rupture before or after the precooler. Before the precooler it's *hot* (could be over 400F), after it's down a
135 tom355uk: I tend to disagree with many of your points to be honest, and I'm sure I won't be the only one. Neither does it mean they ARE flawed, does it? Not if
136 oldtimer: On the DC10 it was carpetted but already cut out on a hatch that was on the LH side of the RH aisle in the forward cabin. I personally have used this
137 EstorilM: Cool! I'd probably ask if I could check it out too (hey, it's technically not interfering with a sterile cockpit haha) what'd you go down there for?
138 bikerthai: Well, if you want to consider military aircrafts like AWACs, AEW&C etc . . . as conventional, then they have electronic racks, power distribution
139 rheinwaldner: Please consider precisely what I have written. I wrote extremes that are not ruled out by Boeing communication. Boeing could have taken a firm stand
140 tom355uk: I've never, ever read a statement from a company, politician or even just one person that couldn't have been interpreted in more than one way. More o
141 kanban: Nice of you to point out (as I see it) that in today's instant communications age, frequently the questioners are demanding answers before the tech s
142 Klaus: Okay. But a self-propagating fire should still be a bit more critical in most cases, don't you think? The two are not necessarily exclusive.
143 airtechy: Thanks for the explanation Tom. I would still think if the arcing causing some adjacent material to ignite it might be useful to fill the volume with
144 Tristarsteve: Only problem is they are locked nowadays, and the key is in the flightdeck! Well ours are.
145 Aesma: I too am wary of Boeing PR and considered doubting some of the points they appear to make. Now rheinwaldner has done that quite well. Still, one thing
146 jreuschl: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...-closer-look-787-fire-investi.html "fire investigation points to P100 power panel" I suppose that could be a go
147 AirbusA370: Is it wise to have an electric compartement so close to the fuel tanks? BTW, aero.de mentions structural damages on ZA002 due to a hard touch down. An
148 ikramerica: It looks as if the problem is less to worry about than it might have seemed. After inspecting the panel, they could easily find that it wasn't wired c
149 Rheinbote: The aft E/E-bay is located in the lower deck aft of the main landing gear wheel well. No fuel tanks there at all.
150 bikerthai: Please stop this newly created A-net myth . . . see below. There are times when EE quipment may be close to a tank. In those times, fire barriers, va
151 Lumberton: It seems the hyperventilating by some in the blogosphere has subsided for now. This thread has been tame by comparison. For me the best post on this
152 BMI727: Especially considering that every fuel tank has wiring already in it.
153 wolbo: I think Boeing is extremely fortunate that this happened on approach to Laredo and not at a higher altitude or out over the ocean. A fire is one of th
154 Lumberton: Staying on the bright side, remember the Japanese saying "defects are treasures". If the accident discloses something that could have been potentiall
155 wahdadli: very true.. BUT its not yet in commercial service... thats the difference...
156 n234nw: The Seattle Times claims to have photos of the damage. I'm assuming they are Boeing internal confidential - They posted an article this afternoon with
158 reporter: A story on the official Boeing engineering report of the fire damage. Seattle Times http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2013409765_boeing
159 ikramerica: That's an interesting article. Things: 1. molten aluminum isn't as bad as molten steal or lead. Aluminum cools fast. 2. insulation blanket hopefully d
160 tdscanuck: I did consider what you said...that was the whole point. Boeing made statements that *could not be true* if some of your statements were true. For ex
161 JoeCanuck: I wonder how the ST got their mitts on the report...was it released to them or leaked? It will be very interesting to find out what actually overloade
162 Klaus: I'm not sure that Boeing finds anything about this whole affair convenient, exactly...! No, that would certainly be an oversimplification. In the end
163 tdscanuck: I'd go with leaked...the idea that Boeing would release photos, then immediately ask the paper not to publish them (they've updated the article since
164 JoeCanuck: That's what I was thinking. Perhaps they need another layer of protection...or better breakers. I would be willing to bet that Boeing was keeping tho
165 kmz: Am I right in the assumption that the supplier of that panel is also suppling the equipment for the A350 electrical system (ECE/Zodiac)? Then I would
166 nomadd22: I'll bet that it wasn't an overload. It can happen that the fire isn't caused by an overload, but by a bad connection or relay. Normal loads can caus
167 JoeCanuck: I've experience similar things. I guess it depends on what kind of protection they employ...I don't doubt they'll be looking for at least one more in
168 kmz: If you say "they" and mean B, how far into detail would they go when ordering such a system (electrical system from H.S.)? Would the define exact par
169 bikerthai: LOL, an aluminum drip pan to catch molten aluminum. That's a good one Now, if that panel was CFRP, it may have charged and burned but the carbon fibe
170 tdscanuck: The illustration on p.5 certainly looks like the picture keesje included in Reply 54. However, p.4 explicitly says "B787" on a picture caption, so th
171 keesje: From the SeatliPi Senior Boeing executives told The Times that the photos reveal specific innovations in the electrical panel's design that could bene
172 SEPilot: Actually, it should work. The molten aluminum will cool as it falls, and aluminum is one of the best heat conductors known. When the molten blob hits
173 bikerthai: Yes, I've done soldering and understand what you are talking about. It just looks funny on paper. bikerthai
174 ikramerica: Yeah, it sounds funny, but it would work. They would gage the pan based on the amount of AL that dripped this time, to make sure it would cool before
175 jreuschl: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...hotos-of-notes-dreamliner-two.html There are photos of it being worked on in Laredo.
176 Rheinbote: Thanks for the link, looks the part. Some people mixed P100 up with the large HVAC rack that Nabtesco had on display on their stand at Farnborough. Y
177 mdword1959: Here's an interesting scoop from Flightblogger: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...pilot-was-flying-za2.html#comments
178 bikerthai: Light and cheap. But if you make it out of glass/epoxy you won't have to worry about corrosion . . . since the pan would more likely see water conden
179 N685FE: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...a-at-controls-during-787-fire.html During the failure of the P100 power panel, which was first noticed as ZA002
180 N685FE: Drip pans like you are talking about are installed above the racks not below and yes they sometimes are made of a fiber, phenolic or aluminum.
181 tdscanuck: What possible reason would the Seattle Times have to bow to such pressure, assuming it was applied? The Times has a vested interesting in *showing* t
182 N685FE: I understand that Tom, but some are implying that the mass of the structure will dissipate the heat of the molten material before it will breach the
183 flood: Interesting link posted by someone on Jon's blog, pointing to previous incident(s) - albeit involving a P200 on the 777. From the UK's Air Accident In
184 tdscanuck: Depends on the structure and the material...CFRP tends to char, rather than melt, so I suspect it would resist the impact of contactor-sized blobs of
185 sphealey: Not to mention that no regulatory agency is going to certify a passenger airplane on which the electrical system bursts into flame so regularly that
186 EC777: Linked from a comment on an article on the internet, I do not remember which one, the following can be read http://wireupdate.com/wires/12304/fa...ngs
187 dynamicsguy: Why would that be so? The opposite is true of pretty much every potential failure mode on an airplane - it is a requirement to consider and provide m
188 PlanesNTrains: No offense, but how many "if it had been over the ocean" comments do we need to endure in this thread? -Dave[Edited 2010-11-13 09:31:23 by srbmod]
189 tdscanuck: How so? Boeing's latest release said the fire self-extinguished (as these things are designed to do) as soon as the fault cleared. Sounds like they w
190 kanban: I don't see this Boeing update posted, however I may have missed it in all the conspiracy theories.. http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&it
191 bmacleod: Guess this means more delays for 787 deliveries. Looks like AC which had 1st 787 deliveries pushed back to 2012, now will have to wait until at least
192 N685FE: Another "over the water" comment. How much will this effect the ETOPS for the a/c? It sounds like power was lost on all busses, standby power is usual
193 tdscanuck: Can't tell based on the available information. Power can't have been lost on all buses, otherwise the plane would have been uncontrollable, the radio
194 JoeCanuck: I haven't seen any report so far that the P200 panel failed. It looks to me like the backup systems kicked in just like they're supposed to. Speculat
195 wolbo: Actually they said that the 'insulation self-extinguished' which isn't necessarily the same thing. Not sure what is meant with 'fault cleared'. Is th
196 N685FE: Obviously all but the DC bus, that would have been understood since we are talking about standby power. Yes you would still have a radio on standby p
197 The Shadow: Sometime before Christmas Boeing will tell us the 787 EIS is delayed to 'mid 2011' or something like that. I would be on Autumn 2011 or later...
198 tdscanuck: True, although I don't know what else you'd have in an EE bay that's flammable...contactors and metal panels can melt and arc, but they don't burn. I
199 keesje: Did the electric driven air-conditioning system work when smoke entered the passenger cabin? Would be relevant in situations where the remianing fligh
200 747classic: A little nit picking, but Boeing has to use the correct ICAO phrases, when releasing an official media statement. This event is according ICAO, Annex
201 Revelation: I suspect the toilets have been tested extensively, especially right after the plane landed in Laredo! Nothing too convenient about it, but it does s
202 tdscanuck: Some systems on aircraft get incredibly rigorously tested as a matter of course, even if you don't have much dedicated testing for them. Coffee maker
203 BMI727: Almost certainly not more relevant than having a fire onboard. The plane should hold pressure for some length of time and then there is supplemental
204 wolbo: Any updates on the investigation? When is Boeing (FAA) planning to resume the testflights? Is it a matter of days, weeks or potentially longer?
205 nomadd22: Hopefully, they weren't dumb enough to use one of the common aluminum/magnesium alloys that many electrical connector bodies are made of. That stuff
206 BMI727: I don't think anyone would be dumb enough to use magnesium around where sparks might be. Of course I did here a story of a factory that was closed an
207 wolbo: It's now clear that the fire had in fact not self-extinguished like Boeing led you to believe and was still burning when the plane had landed (althou
208 PITingres: I think you misunderstand Boeing's statement. I took it to mean that the fire eventually went out when power was removed -- i.e. it did not require a
209 BoeingVista: It should also be clear that this investigation will take a very long time because even assuming the best case scenario, that it was a faulty part, t
210 nomadd22: The only thing that's clear is that the Laredo fire dept. spokesman is at odds with the Boeing release. Not everybody looks for the statement that su
211 ikramerica: The fire in the INSULATION self-extinguished when the source of the fire was removed (power turned off). This is very important. Insulation in planes
212 Lumberton: More info released. No word yet on when ZA002 will return to testing. http://www.stockwatch.com/News/Item....A-20101116&symbol=BA&news_region=
213 Laddie: Thanks, Lumberton, for the post. Here is the rest of the press release: The incident on ZA002 demonstrated many aspects of the safety and redundancy i
214 PlanesNTrains: Hopefully this puts to rest the "...if this had happened out over the ocean..." comments in relation to this event. Also, if the fire lasted less tha
215 jchaase: ZA001 is home. ZA005 is getting ready to go.
216 flood: As the P200 is part of this redundancy, I'd still like to understand why it went offline or the primary system was interrupted after the fire in the
217 BoeingVista: A typical 787 mission profile but what about ETOPS 330 which would not be considered a typical 787 mission. Boeing does not say that the aircraft wou
218 flood: Was thinking the same thing when reading their statement. I would also like to apply this to the backup power supplies, namely: "Backup systems, incl
219 PlanesNTrains: Just out of curiousity (because I don't know), but what would happen in a 330 ETOPS situation that would't have happened in an ETOPS 240 situation, f
220 BoeingVista: And why is the FAA approving 787 ferry flights?
221 Revelation: Why are you so sure melted parts provide no evidence? Because either: A) The FAA is a professional organization and has a lot more information at it'
222 SV777: isn't the smoke (toxic fumes) that was produced by the fire and what it could cause to passengers is the concern over here? and not the length of fir
223 mdword1959: Flightblogger reports Morgan Stanley analyst Heidi Woods' take on Boeing's statement: She also posits that as a result of recent events and consequent
224 WarpSpeed: I wonder if the "multiple redundancies" had already been tested, validated and submitted for certification prior to the fire? If so, having a real wo
225 Revelation: Boeing's statement says: So Heidi is hung up on the use of "many", then goes on to gloat "We're impressed by the honest admission"? All the statement
226 WarpSpeed: To be fair, she is interpreting the Boeing statement by way of information she's gathered from other sources (insiders?). Nonetheless, I hope she is
227 BoeingVista: No, my question is why the FAA had to approve the flights as far as I know the FAA have not withdrawn the 787's experimental aircraft certificate (or
228 ikramerica: Where are you reading that this actually happened? It was CLAIMED that this happened in early reports, but Boeing said it did NOT happen. P200 was al
229 Revelation: Then I question her use of the word "may". If insiders are telling her that there are problems with the safety and redundancy in the 787 design, then
230 keesje: One of the innovations on the 787 is that the airco packs are not powered by bleed air but electrical. I'm not sure how the air circulation was durin
231 XT6Wagon: clearly not all the safety devices were tested as, many of them are completely unrelated to the electrical system. Boeing can't claim they all worked
232 BoeingVista: I don't think that would be certifiable! It opens several cans of worms for single engine ops. Loss of engine after V1 lose some displays, RAT drops
233 PPVRA: Any time you try to read between the lines, you run the risk of being completely wrong. She didn't try to flip the meaning of any words, she's just t
234 JoeCanuck: That scenario isn't any different than what would happen to any other twin. Nothing in there is unique to the 787.
235 Revelation: In fact just said what "may" be the case, which clearly means it also "may not" be the case. So she didn't really tell us what she thinks happened, s
236 tdscanuck: Actually, Boeing's most recent release makes it completely unambiguous that the fire *did* self-extinguish, and rather quickly too. ZA002 doesn't hav
237 flood: I only recall claims involving the loss of the primary flight displays, which Boeing was quick to refute. I don't believe Boeing specifically address
238 mdword1959: This begs the question whether any aspect of flight-test campaign can resume before any necessary design changes are completed and iincorporated in t
239 ADent: You can't fully run the plane on one engine - 500kW on the 787? I understand the RAT dropping down for redundancy when one of the engines goes out of
240 rheinwaldner: She repeated my experiment of listing out what has not been excluded! It only shows how vague Boeing informs... Not exactly. I did not list conclusio
241 tdscanuck: Yes, it's 500 kW per engine on a 787, but you can fully run the plane on one engine. You can fully run it on just the APU, actually (that's how it ru
242 nomadd22: I doubt if pressurization needs that much power. Losing an engine or it's generator in icing conditions might be a different story. I believe the 787
243 Revelation: Or how desperate some are to try to make something out of nothing...
244 rheinwaldner: In case of a contradiction either side could be wrong.... E.g. flickering displays mean that for a short time (milliseconds) power supply has stopped
245 dl1011: I am confused by your post. The RAT on a 757 provides hydraulic power, not electrical power. If you are down to a HMG, you are in BIG trouble. The nb
246 tdscanuck: The document is wrong. It says "nominal 500 kW"...that's far too high for just pressurization. You could conceivably use that much power (via electri
247 PlanesNTrains: Thank you for taking the time to clarify. Some of the things being said in this thread seem like: Throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.
248 nomadd22: Sorry, but needing a 700hp motor for pressurization is absolutely absurd. You're only pumping enough air in to make up for what you leak out on purpo
249 ADent: Looks like the APU supplies only 450kVA - just a litle less than an engine. I was just questioning the above post that a 757 cabin is in the dark wit
250 ikramerica: So it reverts to 8000 feet pressure? That's what I was trying to make clear. You did it better. The plane will fly on one engine. The plane will get
251 tdscanuck: You typically don't need A/C at altitude. On a pneumatic ECS system, you do need to cool the hot bleed air down to cabin temperature, but that's usua
252 dl1011: Once again, the RAT on a 757 is a hydraulic pump, not an electrical source.
253 nomadd22: If the hydraulics use electric pumps, deploying the RAT could free up current for lighting and such.
254 Aesma: Thanks. Good point. But I wouldn't call that doing something about it Interesting. There is something unclear here. We know that most screens in the
255 ikramerica: Good point. Just as if you tried to use everything possible in your home at one time, you'd trip the main breaker. A 100 Amp panel serves individual
256 SA7700: This thread will be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please fee
Sponsor Message: 
From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, 
From United States of America, joined May 2009, 648 posts, 
From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 5704 posts, 
From France, joined Nov 2009, 4935 posts, 
Maybe it was the captain's spilled coffee from two flights ago finally working its way down to where it could cause something to short...
From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
