marchie From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 21 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 16336 times:
So the Qantas PR machine wakes up and, along with advice form the investigation, airworthiness directives, higher management, engineers, RR and Airbus - decides to further ground the QF A380 fleet (perhaps longer than necessary) as a demonstration to the public that they are committed to safety. With the above in mind, does this mean the A380 cabin crew who, as far as I'm aware, are only trained for the A380 remain grounded also? Obviously this may be the case but does this have any significant impact on Qantas and their desire to get these A380's in the air asap?
Their wages are a drop in the ocean but it must be frustrating to have perfectly capable cabin crew hanging around waiting for the green light?
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16166 times:
Quoting marchie (Thread starter): So the Qantas PR machine wakes up and, along with advice form the investigation, airworthiness directives, higher management, engineers, RR and Airbus - decides to further ground the QF A380 fleet (perhaps longer than necessary) as a demonstration to the public that they are committed to safety.
Would you want QF to continue to fly their A-380s until the new engine parts are available? The damage to the aircraft was a lot more than just the engine. The entire green hydraulic system (the A-380 has two systems, a green and a yellow) was taken out. There is a significant hole in the wing. Also the crew could not control the #1 engine.
Quoting marchie (Thread starter): With the above in mind, does this mean the A380 cabin crew who, as far as I'm aware, are only trained for the A380 remain grounded also? Obviously this may be the case but does this have any significant impact on Qantas and their desire to get these A380's in the air asap?
Obviously their wages are a drop in the ocean but it must be frustrating to have perfectly capable cabin crew hanging around waiting for the green light?
marchie From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16061 times:
Whilst I completely agree no-one should be flying an aircraft with potential unaddressed serious safety concerns - it is interesting to know that SIA, in accordance with directives has checked all it's A380 aircraft, replaced some engines like QF is doing/have done, and is operating a majority of its A380 fleet, all of which have the same engines as QF.
QF has decided to ground these A380 indefinitely which is in my view a part genuine safety issue and part PR issue, considering their slamming in the media recently.
My question was centred more around the fact that QF made a decision to have A380 cabin crew only and whether this was impacting them.
Luftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 965 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16025 times:
The A380 hasn't been in service with QF for too long. So it is likely that the crew members who fly on the A380 have been trained to work on other aircraft types before the A380 came into service. However, the question is if the airline is overstaffed in terms of cabin crew at the moment due to the grounding, resulting in some of them having to "stay on the ground" for the time being.
[Edited 2010-11-14 08:33:11]
Et là tu montes encore plus haut et ça persiste, alors on vole
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4844 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15628 times:
Quoting marchie (Reply 2): it is interesting to know that SIA, in accordance with directives has checked all it's A380 aircraft, replaced some engines like QF is doing/have done, and is operating a majority of its A380 fleet, all of which have the same engines as QF.
In general, true. However, keep in mind that the engine thrust rating is higher in the Trents used by QF than the ones in SQ. This is signigicant, and part of the reason why SQ is not grounding the fleet.
BA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 718 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 15361 times:
Quoting marchie (Thread starter): So the Qantas PR machine wakes up and, along with advice form the investigation, airworthiness directives, higher management, engineers, RR and Airbus - decides to further ground the QF A380 fleet (perhaps longer than necessary) as a demonstration to the public that they are committed to safety. With the above in mind, does this mean the A380 cabin crew who, as far as I'm aware, are only trained for the A380 remain grounded also? Obviously this may be the case but does this have any significant impact on Qantas and their desire to get these A380's in the air asap?
Their wages are a drop in the ocean but it must be frustrating to have perfectly capable cabin crew hanging around waiting for the green light?
My understanding is that QF long-haul crew have A330/A380/744 licenses not just the A380.
ZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14937 times:
This June i talked to the crew of an A380 and from their words I understood that they do some flights on 380 while others on 744. So, at least dual rating. The layoff is evident: if 744 run flights that used to be run by 388, fewer people are required (say, 3 less per flight), consequently, some people are laid off. plain logic?!
hamad From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1157 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14809 times:
Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 5): I don't know any airlines that "type-rate" cabin crew for only a single machine type.
Emirates does that, you can be liscenced on two aircrafts only at one time. you have A380 crew, and the Main fleet.
flyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 978 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14269 times:
Quoting marchie (Thread starter): So the Qantas PR machine wakes up and, along with advice form the investigation, airworthiness directives, higher management, engineers, RR and Airbus - decides to further ground the QF A380 fleet (perhaps longer than necessary) as a demonstration to the public that they are committed to safety.
If you really think they are grounding the fleet for PR reasons, you are very naive. They would never forgo that much revenue and inconvenience that many passengers just for PR reasons. You can be sure that they ground the fleet for engineering reasons.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
"We are not going to take any risks whatsoever,Joyce said. We will not be operating the fleet until we are sure we can ensure safety." Alan Joyce
Of course they are not grounding it for PR reasons and one doesn't appreciate being called naive.
I appreciate it's a safety precaution and I'm not directly suggesting otherwise.
But considering the nature of the incident, and from memory 3 or 4 separate incidents that have occurred in the last year or two, Qantas' PR machine will be going full flight to help instill public confidence back into the brandand try to prevent further negative associations.
So there's no doubt that Qantas' reluctance to get the A380's back in the air until they can ensure 100% safety is a signal to the public from the BRAND that safety will not be compromised, ever. They are being ultra-conservative, which is a good thing, and this by it's nature, is a PR exercise in itself. Hopefully a positive one.
flyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 978 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13485 times:
True, it was harsh of me to say "naive." I suspect you are correct in saying that in a sense it can be construed as PR. I suspect it is in the sense that they can kill two birds with one stone. They can on the one hand fix the known issues and thus ground the fleet for a very real reason. However at the same time by doing so, they can convince the public (PR) that they take maintenance seriously.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
qfatwa From Australia, joined Jun 1999, 710 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13460 times:
The QANTAS A380 cabin crew work for a separate group within QANTAS cabin crew on a separate award/agreement/work practices. Similarly the London base is on a separate work agreement, however, London crew are dual rated for A380 and 744 as these are the only two aircraft types which travel to London.
The Sydney crew are isolated to the A380, only trained for A380 operations. CASA had expressed concern about the multiple types and sub fleet variations of aircraft operated by long haul crew, as potential for confusion in an emergency. Their previous 744/A330/767 ratings have been allowed to lapse. Most flight attendants are new hires [not from the long held and, according to management, negative old style corporate culture] with Managers and Supervisors transferring from the older award/aircraft types for a 2 year stint - lesser pay and more hours.
I believe that Cabin Crew Management requires an interview to transfer so that only those they favour [who won't rock the boat] will fly the A380. QANTAS Cabin Crew management has attempted to create a subfleet which is seen as the elite of crew to fly the most modern and customer friendly aircraft. They have attempted to distance the A380 crew from the long term and experienced crew on the [as they see it] more expensive and less appreciated [by management] long haul award.
It is a two tier system, with the A380 crew perceived as the "best" crew who comply with and are favoured by management. Wage costs are lower and flexibility in rostering is higher. Some new hires were initially trained for the older aircraft types, but as additional A380 aircraft have entered the fleet, forced transfers have moved some of these crew to the A380. There has been an upturn in training for the A380 with the expected/planned arrival of the next 3 aircraft in Dec-Feb period.
The A380 crew do not have a bid system - the rosters are allocated. This has removed the perceived negativity of seniority in a bid system, in which the seniors become selfish and the juniors are jealous!
So most A380 crew have not been trained in other aircraft types. The crew who transferred from other aircraft types can complete a conversion/refresher course for their previous aircraft types. The safety protocols remain the same for all aircraft in the QANTAS fleet, including the 737 fleet - such as evacuation commands, procedures and drills.
QANTAS still has to find safety trainers and facilitites within their current training plan [recurrent days] to be able to slot in any crew who they wish to requalify for the older aircraft types. There are no extra aircraft in those fleets, so it would not be a great advantage to retrain all crew, as these older aircraft types are close to fully crewed by the crew who are allocated to their divisions. There may possibly be some tightening of the operational grid of these types to allow them [particularly the 744] to cover for the A380.
BA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 718 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12265 times:
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): believe that Cabin Crew Management requires an interview to transfer so that only those they favour [who won't rock the boat] will fly the A380. QANTAS Cabin Crew management has attempted to create a subfleet which is seen as the elite of crew to fly the most modern and customer friendly aircraft. They have attempted to distance the A380 crew from the long term and experienced crew on the [as they see it] more expensive and less appreciated [by management] long haul award.
Actually I read somewere that the "elite" A380 fleet had to get some of the old contracts over to work with them as customer feedback was poor when the flights were operated soley by the new contracts........
This sounds practically the same as to what BA are doing now with the "mixed fleet" only they will still be employed direcly by BA.
Jackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 652 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11453 times:
Some SYD based A380 crew are currently being endorsed on 744's to cover the Boeing flying incase something like this arises again, and also probably for when the senior crew start to leave the company in time to come. They aren't expected to be regularly rostered onto 747 flying, they just simply will be able to do so if needs be. They will not be endorsed on the A330 and 767 as per the rest of the QAL crew.
bps3458 From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 521 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10432 times:
Does anybody want to take an educated guess when QF will have their A380 fleet back in service ? Has RR given any timeline when the replacement parts will be available ? Are we talking days, weeks or months ? Did see some newspaper headline saying "QF A380 will be grounded for the entire summer period" but can hardly imagine that QF will not do their utmost to get the whales back in the air by early December for the busy holiday season.
I am booked to fly to finally fly the A380 on QF 11 and QF 12 (Dec 11 and returning Dec 17) and just hope the A380 is back in service as I do not want to be stuck in the 744 business class.
TN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 816 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9624 times:
Quoting marchie (Thread starter): So the Qantas PR machine wakes up and, along with advice form the investigation, airworthiness directives, higher management, engineers, RR and Airbus - decides to further ground the QF A380 fleet (perhaps longer than necessary) as a demonstration to the public that they are committed to safety
I have read this statement numerous times just to ensure i am not taking it out of context. "QF PR, on advice from all the relevant auth have decided to ground the A380 fleet longer than necessary to demo to the public they are committed to safety".
Nah. IMHO no one can wear that assertion. Why?
1. Please read the source quoted in post 200 of the QF A380 SIN-SYD Engine failure part 4 thread.
2. QF have more business nous than what some appear to give them credit for.
3. QF safety record speaks for itself, they do not have to prove a thing to anyone ("demo to the public" ) etc.
4. If QF feel they need to keep the fleet grounded, they will, as you rightly pointed out in a subsequent post. Please remember, QF have shareholders they need to answer too, not just clients.
This post is not meant to be inflammatory, it is just a flat rejection of the said posters comments. cheers.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
bps3458 From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 521 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9508 times:
Quoting BRABAZON (Reply 19): Why do you not want to be stuck in the 744 Business Class?
Not a big fan of the 170 degrees business class seats on the 744 and "only" 60 inch pitch compared to 80 inches on the A380. Makes a big difference if you are 201 cms tall like myself. Finally, this trip has been booked for a long time and will hopefully be my first trip on the A380.
VH-BZF From Australia, joined Oct 1999, 781 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9487 times:
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): believe that Cabin Crew Management requires an interview to transfer so that only those they favour [who won't rock the boat] will fly the A380. QANTAS Cabin Crew management has attempted to create a subfleet which is seen as the elite of crew to fly the most modern and customer friendly aircraft. They have attempted to distance the A380 crew from the long term and experienced crew on the [as they see it] more expensive and less appreciated [by management] long haul award.
What a load of rubbish! - stop believing the union spin and unhappy crew who clearly don't want to change from old work practices and get up with the times. It's all about the CUSTOMER and looking after them. From what I understand the last lot of customer service managers and supervisors simply expressed their interest in going across to the aircraft and they were accepted.
Cheers BZF
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
ditzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 680 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8420 times:
Quoting BA174 (Reply 8): y understanding is that QF long-haul crew have A330/A380/744 licenses not just the A380.
As has been said, the London crew operate on the 747 and 380. Australian based crew are either 380 only OR 330/767/747.
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): The safety protocols remain the same for all aircraft in the QANTAS fleet, including the 737 fleet - such as evacuation commands, procedures and drills.
I like the fact the training and procedures are so consistent for cabin crew. This has extended to a certain degree into QantasLink (Dash fleet) and Jetstar.
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): The A380 crew do not have a bid system - the rosters are allocated.
380 crew have the ability to bid for days off.
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): Their previous 744/A330/767 ratings have been allowed to lapse.
For those who have previously been endorsed on these aircraft all that is required is a pass in the normal 747 practical and written exams, no?
I think I read that crew who have not been endorsed on the 747 previously would not participate in the program as to do the five day conversion would not be cost effective.
Quoting qfatwa (Reply 15): Most flight attendants are new hires [not from the long held and, according to management, negative old style corporate culture] with Managers and Supervisors transferring from the older award/aircraft types for a 2 year stint - lesser pay and more hours.
There is also QAL LH and SH crew who have gone over as flight attendants for the two years.
If I went to the 380 as a QAL employee I'd be earning more for the two years I was there at my year level.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4844 posts, RR: 28 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7102 times:
Quoting bps3458 (Reply 18): I am booked to fly to finally fly the A380 on QF 11 and QF 12 (Dec 11 and returning Dec 17) and just hope the A380 is back in service as I do not want to be stuck in the 744 business class.
Oh The horror!!!
MGGS
25 downtown273: EasyJet does that; you're either a A319/A320 crew, or a B737 crew. All crew were trained for B737 aircraft before; with the transition to A320 family
26 ozvirginuk: I'm totally with you there bps3458. I'm due to fly to LHR on the A380 in 1/1, and really really hope the fleet is not still grounded then (surely not
27 robo65: October 2008, so that is over two years.
28 robo65: Question for anyone who may know this. If I am reading the above posts and answers correctly the A380 SYD based flight crews most likely are only cert
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