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El Al Aircraft Orders  
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13238 times:

What ever happened with LY's cancelled 787 order? This article from a few years back indicates that they re-negotiated for deliveries from 2011-2015. As I recall from back then, it was unclear if they would go with more 777s or 787s:
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...ocview.asp?did=1000208163&fid=1725

LY currently has 5 747-400s and 6 777-200 E.R.s (and 8 767s, some of which are getting quite old). The 747s are ancient; only one of them has AVOD throughout and the others look like they have seen better days (in coach at least). Two of the 777s were delivered circa 2008 and are quite nice with AVOD throughout, mood lighting, and new premium cabins. These two 777s are used on the LAX flights and some of the EWR flights. The other 4 777s, as far as I know, don't have AVOD either.

So two questions: Were the new Business and First seats installed on the rest of the 747 & 777 fleet? And what do you expect LY to order going forward?

It seems like the 747s could be replaced with 747-8s or 777-300 E.R.s. But they could also use 787s to replace the 767 fleet. It will be interesting to see what they do with this.

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12861 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter):
So two questions: Were the new Business and First seats installed on the rest of the 747 & 777 fleet? And what do you expect LY to order going forward?

The entire 777 and 744 fleet are equipped with the "new" C and F seats



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User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12792 times:

El Al has a problem with it's fleet, someone fell asleep on duty over there since LY has no plan (that I know of) about replacing it's aging jets. El Al's orders for B777s and B787s were cancelled, and there is no new order that I know of.

El Al's worst problem is the B762s: they have 4 of them (EAC/D/E/F), all built in the 1980s - oldest was build in 1984 (26 years old now) and the airline is not replacing them. Those B762s have main screens and not PTV, yet they serve on some of the airline's longest routes like YYZ, JNB & LHR. Since 2004 El Al has been adding newer leased B763s (EAK/P/J/R) built in the 1990s (1991 to 1997, not new but newer then those B762s) but those are also fitted with main screen and not PTV. While those planes are fine for flying to Europe and even India (they serve FRA, CDG, FCO, BCN, SVO and LTN so as BOM) when it comes to long haul they are way behind El Al's other wide bodies - B744s and B772s. The result is the when a passenger fly to JFK, EWR, LAX & HKG he gets a PTV, in some planes also with AVOD, and lie-flat seat in JCL and full flat seat in FCL - while if he flies to YYZ, BKK, JNB, BOM or PEK he gets main screen, old fashion JCL seat and no FCL all that while flying the the same airline!

And it's not like LY is cheaper then other airlines so passengers are willing to take it as long as the price is low - El Al is usually more expensive then other airlines. For example, when I flew to BCN in april El Al offered flights for not less then 560 USD, while I flew Air Europa for 262 USD. The service is not the same, but it was less then half the price.

Back to the fleet - El Al also have a problem with it's B744s: they were built from 1994 to 1998, meaning the the oldest (ELA) is now 16 years old. El Al will need to replace them in 4-5 years, yet they have no order ins sight. Rumors in Israel say that El Al is negotiating Boeing for B748, and that due to it's low passenger version sales El Al will get it for good price, but I can't say anything for sure since nothing is official. Even today LY's B744s (ELA/B/C/D/E) show their age, and their PTV was state of the art in 1994, but today it's out of date. Yet, all seats on LY's B744s and B772s are new, including those on FCL & JCL.

About the B772s - oldest was built in 2001 - it seems that they are due to serve the airline for at least 10 more years. Out of LY's 6 B772s, 2 have AVOD (ECE/ECF) and the other 4 (ECA/B/C/D) have regular PTV.

El Al's short haul fleet is made entirely from B737NGs - 6 built in 1999 (EKA/B/C/D/E/F) and other 7 are newer (newest was built in 2009) and no change is in sight here. And on the same issue - El Al just bought another B738, ex Eurocypria, to be registered 4X-EKT, current registration 5B-DBZ



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12632 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 2):
And on the same issue - El Al just bought another B738, ex Eurocypria, to be registered 4X-EKT, current registration 5B-DBZ

I didn't know that. This plane was delivered new to Eurocypria in June 2006.

As for the 748I, I highly doubt, unfortunately, that LY will be them  
They will certainly buy 787s, but the question is WHEN!!!



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User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12338 times:

BTW, you forgot to mention the 2 757s that are still in service with LY mainline (plus the 3 other 757s that fly for Sun d'Or). As for the 762s, EAE and EAF are newer than EAC/EAD: they were built in 1991 whereas EAC and EAD were built in 1984.


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User currently offlinemanfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11604 times:

Ive written a few times that El Al is my first choice among the next wave of 748i customers. They have a great relationship with Boeing and they need the capacity from 744's.

I don't see whats wrong with "80's" 767 in your fleet. They are still efficient and no need to replace them as long as they are mechanically sound.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11376 times:

Quoting manfredj (Reply 5):
I don't see whats wrong with "80's" 767 in your fleet. They are still efficient and no need to replace them as long as they are mechanically sound.

But from a passenger point of view, a non refurbished 25+ year old a/c (at least in Y) is not great to fly on!



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User currently offlineNZ001 From UK - England, joined Nov 2010, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10938 times:

LY is my most frequent airline. I think this year I flew from LHR to TLV on LY316 and LY318 7 times!
They operate a mixture of 744, 772, and 767's for this route.
4X ECE and ECF are fantastic, but the others need to be fitter wit AVOD urgently.
The 762's are ancient and I think their time with LY/all together needs to end.
The 763's are a different story, but I recently flew from BKK to TLV on one, and 10 hours with only a main screen TV was dreadful.

As for the 744's, they need to be replaced. But with what?
The 787, 77W, and the 747--8i are all possibilities for LY

The question is when will they replace their ageing aircraft???


User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 987 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10662 times:

Is part of the problem the deck plating LY uses on the 767 and 744? These aircraft have reinforced floors (i.e. extra weight) to separate the passenger deck from the cargo/luggage area in the event of a device going off. Its not known how much extra weight or what penalty they pay as far as price/range/fuel burn but I would imagine the higher ticket fares have to reflect the extra fuel they consume vs. EasyJet or BA.

I don't know how or if newer airframes can accommodate the extra weight for the deck plating. I am pretty confident in saying that's part of the reason they have not retired these older air frames. They're unique compared to their peers and a plane like the 787 can't take what amounts to armor plating very easily. Its a composite frame so I would imagine not well. Does anyone know why they don't purchase Airbus planes? Is it repayment for US protection that they go with Boeing?


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
But from a passenger point of view, a non refurbished 25+ year old a/c (at least in Y) is not great to fly on!

Ppl seem happy on them into Luton 


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9471 times:
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Quoting SolarFlyer22 (Reply 8):
Is it repayment for US protection that they go with Boeing?

are you suggesting that Obama would sweeten the peace talks with a whole new fleet of commercial aircraft ???   


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8962 times:
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Since it will be quite sometime before LY will be able to take delivery of a 788 or 789, if they were to order them. I could see Boeing offering LY a good deal on some new 763ERs with blended winglets and perhaps some additional 77Es until they would be able to take delivery of a/c in this size range.

The 748 would be a nice a/c for LY but at the same time, I feel the 77W would be a much more efficient a/c for the routes they fly and if they are to eventually expand.

Is there a lot of "infighting" amongst those in upper management @ LY? It seems like something has gone off track for them to have markedly older fleet with nothing new and more efficient on the horizon.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8921 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
As for the 748I, I highly doubt, unfortunately, that LY will be them

I disagree. The old age of the 744 fleet and the need (by Boeing) to sell more 748i, I could easily see a 748 order be EL AL. Whether with, or without, an associated 772/787 order also. IMO.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8921 times:

I hope the airline will end its all Boeing fleet and operate some Airbus planes, the A330s to replace the 767s and perhaps the A350s to replace the 772s. The 747-8 seem to be a better fit for them than the A380.

Just my thoughts.



Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8739 times:

I can easily imagine them going with second hand RR powered 772ERs after all it would fit their fleet perfectly and much cheaper and quicker to get + they have a history of operating second hand equipment.

I think the 748, 789 and 788 combo fleet would be the most ideal for them, without any politics. They need something as close to the 762 as possible, and the 788 is as close as you can get, so then the 789 is the logical next step. If they need something to replace the 744s then it would be the 748 (if those routes can accept some capacity growth) or 773ER if they can use a little capacity drop. The A380 is definitely too much for LY.



Peet7G
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8524 times:

Quoting 9V-SVC (Reply 13):
I hope the airline will end its all Boeing fleet and operate some Airbus planes

Not in this life time!



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8415 times:

I suppose that the most surprising problem is that LY seems to have no cohesive or coherent strategy to modernize its fleet in the long run. This indicates that management seems preoccupied with the short-term, when it should focus instead on the long-term growth and development of the airline. This will doom LY to mediocrity or worse. Many passengers will more and more choose other airlines (especially on long-haul) routes that offer more modern and comfortable aircraft and better service.

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8359 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
I suppose that the most surprising problem is that LY seems to have no cohesive or coherent strategy to modernize its fleet in the long run. This indicates that management seems preoccupied with the short-term, when it should focus instead on the long-term growth and development of the airline. This will doom LY to mediocrity or worse. Many passengers will more and more choose other airlines (especially on long-haul) routes that offer more modern and comfortable aircraft and better service.

Dont they pretty much own ISRAEL in terms of flights.. I mean they are the major player no? I dont think on alot of routes there are many other choices they have to worry about or am i way off the mark?  


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 2):
El Al just bought another B738, ex Eurocypria, to be registered 4X-EKT, current registration 5B-DBZ

Do you know how much they paid for this plane?

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
I didn't know that. This plane was delivered new to Eurocypria in June 2006

Well Eurocypria went belly up some time ago  


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8309 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 17):
Dont they pretty much own ISRAEL in terms of flights.. I mean they are the major player no? I dont think on alot of routes there are many other choices they have to worry about or am i way off the mark?




They certainly are a major player, but I think that their market share is considerably below 50 percent. Like most flag carriers, they enjoy a strong market position in their home country. Passengers seem to have a lot of other choices to destinations in Europe and North America. In Africa, they code-share their flights to JNB with SA (which withdrew from TLV many years ago), but ET faces no competition to ADD. In Asia, LY has no competitors to BOM, BKK, HKG, and PEK, and KE has no competitor to ICN. LY offers the only nonstop flight from TLV to South America (GRU), but some of the European carriers such as IB or LH connect a significant share of the passengers through their hubs.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8306 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 14):
I can easily imagine them going with second hand RR powered 772ERs after all it would fit their fleet perfectly and much cheaper and quicker to get + they have a history of operating second hand equipment.

I do agree with you. LY is capable to buy 2nd hand 772s from SQ maybe?! I hope this won't happen and that they will buy new a/c for longhaul



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User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8288 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 19):
They certainly are a major player, but I think that their market share is considerably below 50 percent. Like most flag carriers, they enjoy a strong market position in their home country. Passengers seem to have a lot of other choices to destinations in Europe and North America. In Africa, they code-share their flights to JNB with SA (which withdrew from TLV many years ago), but ET faces no competition to ADD. In Asia, LY has no competitors to BOM, BKK, HKG, and PEK, and KE has no competitor to ICN. LY offers the only nonstop flight from TLV to South America (GRU), but some of the European carriers such as IB or LH connect a significant share of the passengers through their hubs.

Thanks for the info 


User currently offlineNZ001 From UK - England, joined Nov 2010, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Is LY every likely to enter the Australasia market?

User currently offlineMD95 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8133 times:

Quoting 9V-SVC (Reply 13):
I hope the airline will end its all Boeing fleet and operate some Airbus planes, the A330s to replace the 767s and perhaps the A350s to replace the 772s. The 747-8 seem to be a better fit for them than the A380

If I remember well, years ago ElAl wanted to order AB airplanes, but the deal fell because Boeing and the State Department complained. According to them, ElAl, as a government subsidized company, would have used money the US Gov gave them as aid to pay for the AB planes. Not politically correct.



dario
User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Is there a connection between the Jewish faith and flying LY? If it it, a market will always exist for them. Another thought which was presented here but not clearly stated as being a competitive advantage. Someone said that the LY a/c had a different approach to security than their competition, so if I take security seriously as well as my faith, do I have any other option in the market in which to fly? If those things are true, which I don't know, then LY can fly what they choose as long as my market thinks I offer the only option available. So an old worn a/c might suit their market very well, and it might be a way of keeping the undesirables away..

25 IAD380 : Although some people may choose LY for the reasons you mention, the majority probably do not. Most people consider price, schedule, and convenience w
26 LXA340 : As mentioned several times LY's fleet and inflight product management teams are pure failures. If you purvhase new aircraft you need to see the long t
27 ju068 : Sorry for being off topic, but how do they fly to India? They would have to avoid so many countries...no?
28 garpd : And why would the 787 and new 777s not do the job?
29 IAD380 : For a small airline like LY, which serves a relatively small market, wouldn't an all-Boeing fleet make more economical sense than a mixed fleet?
30 todaReisinger : To many destinations there are now code sharing agreements and if there's not an independant 3rd player, price differences tend to disappear. Comptet
31 washingtonian : Yes, they seem very much like the PTVs I remember seeing on Virgin Atlantic 747s circa 1997-1998. On my flight a few months ago, they still had backg
32 Flyingsottsman : No NZ001 I dont think you will ever see El AL down here and if they do decide to do a service it will be done by codeshare.
33 jfk777 : EL AL should get some of the slightly used Singapore Airlines 777-200ER's. EL AL should move to an all 777 long haul fleet, including 777-300ER, and c
34 LY777 : LY fleet age: 737NG (13): 6.7 year old 757 (2): 17 year old 744 (5): 15 year old 762(4): 23 year old 763(4): 16.5 year old 772 (6): 6.8 year old Fleet
35 NZ001 : Ye I agree, the 762's are in urgent need of replacing. But why are they getting new 763's which are already 16.5 years old?
36 LY777 : I can't understand that...I guess the 763s are an interim solution. I can see LY getting rid of all of its 762s and replacing them with used 763s. BT
37 NZ001 : I recently flew on 752 to LTN. You could see all the evidence fro, back in the old days when EL AL was on those turquoise colours. The plane was very
38 dennys : I would rather see LY flying 747-8i to NYC / CHI and even LON or CDG The 747 btwn TLV and the USA is the right plane . dennys
39 Post contains links IAD380 : El Al's profits have dramatically increased in the past year because of the sharp increase in tourism. globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=100
40 Post contains images LXA340 : yes they do, however those plans change every day
41 Post contains images todaReisinger : my BELOVED colors...... ! The situation in which El Al is operating is also changing every day. Of course this is true for any airline, but in the ME
42 328JET : As far as i know, Airbus is not offering aircrafts to El AL anymore since the A319/330 "deal" some years ago. They would really like to sell aircraft
43 Giancavia : Well I hope all the 767's arent gone too soon, Its the only heavy thing we get in Luton on a regular basis. Realize I dont have to fly on them though
44 NZ001 : Get what you mean, coz LTN is pretty dull for spotting heavies. But flying on those old LY 762's are depressing. Btw, do u know during the BA strikes
45 Post contains images Giancavia : Yeah I rely on that and the odd 767 that shows up for maintenance with Britannia (Thomson blah). Nawww I was out of the country for the 777. The 738
46 washingtonian : I think the worst thing is the inconsistency. A passenger could fly EWR-TLV on one of the new 777-200 E.R.s with AVOD, mood lighting and winged headr
47 IAD380 : This still does not explain why they do not have a strategic plan to modernize their fleet.
48 todaReisinger : Yes, but a 15 year old 744 is still a Maybach compared to a 30 year old 742...... I remember my own last flight on an LY 742; it was in 1990, the pla
49 LXA340 : not to forget that the flight to London on a B738 is up to 30 mins longer than on a B777 for instance.
50 LY777 : So, you must have been unlucky. I fly LY quite often. LY can improve a lot of things, but we can't say anything about their maintenance. Their a/c ar
51 NZ001 : Actually, I disagree. As a common LY flyer (6 times last year) I often find that my light doesn't work, and when i'm lucky enough to get a PTV, it is
52 todaReisinger : Sure, El Al maintenance is good. Regarding the condition of the cabins, I guess it depends on the plane's age... The cabins of the 737s I have seen w
53 Giancavia : How far in advance does ELAL choose what it is sending on a route. Last few months ive seen anything from a 738 to a 763 with 762 and 757 turning up.
54 LY777 : So, what is the problem now?The 742s and 732s are phased out now!
55 todaReisinger : the 762s are still in service, and the first ones are as old as the 732s would be today - they were ordered at the same time. And while the 732s were
56 LY777 : I agree with you. When I fly to TLV, I akways try to fly on a 772
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