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Pic: Comac C919 Launches With Six Customers  
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 44
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22392 times:

Just breaking here in Zhuhai right now, an official announcement is expected at 10:30 AM. It's a little after 9 here at the moment on Tuesday morning.

China Southern, China Eastern, Air China, Hainan Airlines, CLC and GECAS are lined up for the launch. No word yet on how many, reports estimate the total to be in the "hundreds".

Pic of the customers lined up here at the show:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...omacs-c919-to-set-the-tone-fo.html

Onward,

IAD787


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4426 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22321 times:

I'm wondering if this is going to end up being the dark horse in the A320NEO/737NG+/CS300 race. But then I wonder, will US airlines treat Chinese airliners the way they do Russian airliners? Russia has a new jet that I'm also hoping catches on, but historical precedent strongly favors A/B. Will it be different this time if neither Airbus or Boeing act quickly enough?

User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22316 times:

China will make sure their strategic product gets off to a successful start. It domestic market is also large enough to provide a long runway to enable the industry to take off. Its government is so committed that it will do whatever it takes to make China into a major aviation player.

User currently offlineflybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 22141 times:

I wonder if some of the technical know-how garnered under the McDonnell-Douglas trunkliner program, along with any newer techniques gained on the assembly of A320s on the mainland will help push the C919 forward faster? I also feel that airbus and Boeing may be banking way too much on technical cooperation in exchange for orders. Given enough time, China will be satisfying its own demand for domestic jets... without the need for future Boeing or Airbus aircraft. Considering the political nature of these first few COMAC orders, this may happen sooner rather than later by Beijing decree... or perhaps less ominously, billion dollar grants for buying domestically produced aerospace products.


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4095 posts, RR: 90
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21891 times:
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Quoting IAD787 (Thread starter):
No word yet on how many

Bloomberg are reporting 100 though the statement they reference didn’t say how many aircraft each customer ordered.

Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China announced its first 100 C919 passenger-plane orders, breaking Airbus SAS and Boeing Co.’s stranglehold on the world’s second- largest market for new aircraft.

General Electric Co.’s leasing arm and China’s big three domestic airlines were among the customers for the 168-seat plane, state-controlled Comac said in a statement issued at the Zhuhai air show in southern China today. It didn’t say how many aircraft each customer ordered.


Source - Bloomberg

We should know more shortly as three of the major Chinese carriers will sign agreements on Tuesday, unless IAD787 updates us before then.



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4426 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21828 times:

What was the EIS on this plane again?

Not to be devil's advocate or anything, but we've seen quite a bit in the media lately about "poor quality, safety compromising" products from china. The latest being lead-lined grocery sacks and toys with lead paint.

An aircraft is an entirely different story, but with Chinese products having a negative connotation to them as of late, and potentially some political pressure that may or may not occur, are you sure the Chinese can pull this off in the western world? I worry that folks will associate chinese airliners with chinese grocery sacks. It's a stretch, but never underestimate politics and media.

[Edited 2010-11-15 20:06:20]

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4095 posts, RR: 90
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21752 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
What was the EIS on this plane again?

Here's a comment on EIS

Furthermore, given the two year delay in the entry-into-service of the ARJ-21, we believe the 2016 EIS for the C919 will likely slip to 2018, even with its currently planned eight-year launch-to-EIS timeline; we just don’t think the Chinese will make it.

Source



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29649 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21742 times:
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Well CAAC's AR-21 failed the wing bending test, so they're working to strengthen that.

Hopefully the models used for the C919 are more accurate...


User currently offlinetennis69 From Qatar, joined Apr 2007, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21722 times:
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Here are some photos of the full scale model:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/imqq/ch...na/2010-11/15/content_11552632.htm


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5318 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21624 times:

It was inevitable that the Chinese would be making their own airliners. It seems to be one of the steps a country takes in strengthening its place in the developed world. Heck, the Chinese have a viable space program...I don't see any reason they can't produce an airliner or two.

China has had access to western and Russian technology for decades. Just like Russia, the Chinese market will still have room for foreign airlines for the foreseeable future. They will just not be able to fill their own needs, and eventually they will also want to export them, which will further reduce the domestic supply.

There is at least 5 more years before either of their airliners enters service and many more years before they can produce them in significant numbers.

The Chinese market alone will be big enough so everybody can get a taste.



What the...?
User currently offlinetsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21564 times:

Color me dubious... if the Chinese make airplanes as well as they make cars, I'm never getting on one.

User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 21317 times:

Flight Global confirms its an order of 100 jets with half of them being firm.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...c919-order-for-up-to-100-jets.html

Camilo   



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4095 posts, RR: 90
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 21216 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 11):
Flight Global confirms its an order of 100 jets with half of them being firm.

Thanks for the update CamiloA380. The article also provides the first breakdown of some of the orders;

Air China, China Southern and China Eastern have ordered up to 20 C919s each, he adds. He did not give a detailed breakdown for the remaining orders.

GECAS says it has ordered up to 10 aircraft, half of which are firm orders

That could be 10+10 for Air China, China Eastern and China Southern plus 5+5 for GECAS, if that is the case then there are 15 firm left between Hainan and CLC. That is just my opinion and we should know more with the signings tomorrow.

Regards

Paul



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2579 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 21087 times:

Can't help but notice how the cockpit windows bear more than a passing resemblance to those of the 787.
But, as the saying goes "imitation is the best form of flattery".

In this case, the "similar job breeds similar design" rhetoric doesn't cut it.
The Airbus aircraft do the same job as Boeing aircraft, yet the cockpit windows are completely different.

Since the 787 project got underway for certain, I've always said, the 737 replacement will look like a smaller 787. I even drew this:




arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20787 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
What was the EIS on this plane again?

Not to be devil's advocate or anything, but we've seen quite a bit in the media lately about "poor quality, safety compromising" products from china. The latest being lead-lined grocery sacks and toys with lead paint.

An aircraft is an entirely different story, but with Chinese products having a negative connotation to them as of late, and potentially some political pressure that may or may not occur, are you sure the Chinese can pull this off in the western world? I worry that folks will associate chinese airliners with chinese grocery sacks. It's a stretch, but never underestimate politics and media.

All western planes have Chinese parts on them anyway, and 20 years ago if someone had said that the dominant player in the 90-100 seat market would be Brazilian you'd have been laughed at, indeed even now people associate Brazil with football, samba, beaches and skimpy bikinis rather than a successful aerospace industry, and it hasn't stopped airlines buying their products!

I can't imagine any exports of the C919 for several years after entry date, except to a few friendly countries in the 3rd world, so China has plenty of time to build up its service levels to A and B levels.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinekingfriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1294 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 20632 times:

Quoting tennis69 (Reply 8):
Here are some photos of the full scale model:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/imqq/ch...2.htm

Yikes. That nose looks very similar to the 787, and the cabin looks frighteningly close to Boeing's new Sky interior for the 737.

Okay maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but this is what came to my mind as soon as I saw the photos. Looks nice inside though  

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1079 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 20428 times:

I really hope that we'll see the C919 flying all around the planet in 2020, and perhaps as an updated version in 2025.
This segment is way too big to support only 2 manufacturers.


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19925 times:

I noticed that they released a few hard facts on the size of the aircraft (width/length/pax etc) does anyone know what Boeing or Airbus model does it most closely resemble . I am thinking it's the A320 would that be correct?

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19638 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Well CAAC's AR-21 failed the wing bending test, so they're working to strengthen that.

Hopefully the models used for the C919 are more accurate...

Funny enough, I seem to remember another aircraft failing the same thing!

Quoting garpd (Reply 13):
Can't help but notice how the cockpit windows bear more than a passing resemblance to those of the 787.
But, as the saying goes "imitation is the best form of flattery".

In this case, the "similar job breeds similar design" rhetoric doesn't cut it.
The Airbus aircraft do the same job as Boeing aircraft, yet the cockpit windows are completely different.

Sure, but how different can you infinitely make cockpit windows? I mean, are you seriously basing the quality of an aircraft on such intanglible matters or what difference does it really make?


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19189 times:
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How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.

User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18886 times:

Quoting tsugambler (Reply 10):

Color me dubious... if the Chinese make airplanes as well as they make cars, I'm never getting on one.

What do you think is increasingly occupying space under the skin of your western branded car ?

Quoting garpd (Reply 13):
Can't help but notice how the cockpit windows bear more than a passing resemblance to those of the 787.

New load carrying window technology enabled the number of windows to be reduced to 4 and it didn't start with the Dreamliner.

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=846744

It probably will be a metal cockpit anyway, reducing opportunities to "copy" anything.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 19):
How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.

All. The centralized undemocratic Chinese economy is taking large bites out of established businesses everywhere. And the amounts of money they have in the bank is scary (and they don't print it themselves..) We used to explain them how capitalism, free market and democracy are connected. All they give us is a friendly smile.

[Edited 2010-11-16 06:26:28]

User currently offlineFoxThree From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18030 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
I'm wondering if this is going to end up being the dark horse in the A320NEO/737NG+/CS300 race.

I read somewhere that most analysts believe the performance will lag even the current generation A320/737NG, not to mention any re-engined versions. This, and the ARJ 21, are seen more as opportunities to allow Chinese industry to gain experience designing and manufacturing commercial airliners vs. viable competitors to Airbus and Boeing. However, I don't think the Chinese airlines have much say about whether to buy them, and if the purchase price is low enough there may be some sales to third-world carriers, too.

The next generation of Chinese airliners, however, may well be much better direct competitors to Airbus and Boeing. I think anything that breaks-up the A/B duopoly, be it Chinese, Japanese, Canadian, or whatever is a good thing for the industry as a whole.

Quoting garpd (Reply 13):
Since the 787 project got underway for certain, I've always said, the 737 replacement will look like a smaller 787. I even drew this:

That's a mighty nice looking airliner ya' got there!


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29649 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17975 times:
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Quoting AirNZ (Reply 18):
Funny enough, I seem to remember another aircraft failing the same thing!

Yes, the A380 did fail her wing bending test.

Oh, wait. You probably meant the 787, but she actually passed.  

Anyway, back to the C919, since this is a C919 thread.

So a 50 firm frame launch order. Not bad, but not stunning.


User currently offlinetsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17512 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 20):
What do you think is increasingly occupying space under the skin of your western branded car ?

My car is a Hyundai, made in South Korea... I seriously doubt it has much (if any) Chinese content. There may in fact be some minor components of western cars that were manufactured in China, but they do not comprise any of the structure or major systems such as body, engine, or transmission. In addition, all of the purely Chinese cars I have seen safety-tested have performed well below standards in comparison to Japanese, European, Korean, and American cars. Some of the crash-test videos have been truly frightening.

However, you are probably right that I should amend my statement to be less absolute... How about this: I won't get on a Chinese plane until the Chinese planes have proved themselves reliable after many years of service.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16438 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 19):
How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.

Of course the same can be said about all the purchases of British aircraft by BEA/BOAC, and French aircraft by AF/AI, the early purchases of Airbuses by AF, IB and LH, MRJ being bought by NH and JL, the sales of RR powered 747s to QF and NZ etc
And the cancellation of the USAF A330 tankers 



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
25 garpd : Those windows are a completely different shape. The C919 has windows that are virtually identical to the 787.
26 HRC773 : I don't think the issue is whether or not China will create a high quality safe plane. I think they can. The issue is who will believe it. China has m
27 rikkus67 : Is the C919 not built off of A32X technology?
28 airfrnt : So much for Airbus's grand scheme to appease China by building A320s there.
29 SolarFlyer22 : People have to realize that in a nation of 1.2 billion, you're focus is on quantity not quality. There are just a lot of mouths to feed with limited r
30 Aloha717200 : Neither Boeing nor Airbus can claim to have 20 years of accident free use of their products. There will be accidents.
31 manfredj : Yes sir, you're quite correct. Perception is everything. This aircraft may be new, but our perception of Chinese craftmanship is not. Don't expect ma
32 iceberg210 : So here's my question. Beyond quality and all the other issues that people have brought up, this is a state owned company. So wouldn't if you were Boe
33 Post contains images mandala499 : Then stop getting on a 737NG... it has Chinese parts and Chinese assembled components (some of which are criticial)... Then stop getting on an LCC A3
34 tsugambler : They may have some components made in China (especially computer components), but the vast majority of the systems are not. More importantly, the des
35 kanban : the Chinese build or built (things may have changed in the last 10 years) the 737 vertical fin which was a better product both in quality, consistenc
36 Post contains images astral : COMAC is showing the C919 cockpit and cabin to selected medias at Air Show China. These are photos taken yesterday during pre-opening media tour. Inte
37 Post contains links and images Gipsy : Yep so smart (Managers hmm). And of those western supplied components all are 50/50 Joint Ventures with uhm let me guess...production in China and te
38 shankly : Rather reminiscent of the British sharing its crown jewels (jet engines and supersonic airframe technology) with the US post WW2 and letting the nice
39 JoeCanuck : If the Chinese use that technology, the C919 might come in a bit heavy.
40 keesje : I think you are underestimating the industrial power of the Chinese. They are attracting major production contracts from almost all major western bra
41 airbazar : I find it so ironic that so many people question the quality of Chinese airplanes (and products in general), when it's their own countries' quality ov
42 garpd : Now there is an interesting prospect. We all know how LH consistently order different engines and aircraft, so that Lufthansa Technik can gain experi
43 gipsy : Quality is not the issue here in IMHO, if they want they can and do produce quality goods for a higher price naturally. The problem is that the West s
44 Post contains links aviationweek : Slightly off-topic, but it was interesting to see Comac's handling of this press announcement. Aviation Week's Bradley Perrett doesn't mince his words
45 pylon101 : What can you expect? Chinese civilization is the oldest of all existing (along with Iran/Persia). When Zhou Enlai was asked about impact of the Frenc
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