Skydrol From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 969 posts, RR: 10 Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3476 times:
Has the time finally come for us to regain control of our air transportation system?
With recent topics about the TSA, body scanners, pat-downs (and related opt out protest), possible elimination of in-flight WiFi, liquid bans etc., has the time come for us to collectively tell those "in charge", who are trying to tell us how air travel should work, that they are wrong, and we demand civilized and logical security and a more time efficient and pleasant pre and inflight experience overall?
The disgust expressed by both passengers and crew members is unanimous. It seems that the TSA has finally gone too far this time. Consider 99.99999% of all passengers are no threat to anyone, but 100% of passengers must be subject to frustration, invasion and humiliation for the 0.00001% (or less) who might be a threat. The state of fear has simply become insane. Some logical and effective measures such as reinforced cockpit doors, profiling of passengers, and background checks of employees in critical airport operations have been implemented over the decade, but the smoke and mirrors facade of confiscating a bottle of orange juice or nail clippers is an incredible waste of time and resources.
I can state from my own experience, the hassle is simply no longer worth it. I have flown on more than 400 flights, but none to the US in the last 4 years. From reading other related topics on airliners.net and other sites, this seems to be an (unfortunate) growing trend.
In past years, when a debate would start on an airliners.net topic of some newly-imposed TSA security measure, about half of the postings would support the action for whatever reason, but I have noticed recently this support is dwindling. Even the supporters of the TSA, DHS and "big brother" control have come around to realize the system is destined to fail if continues on it's present course.
The Opt Out is a good start, but has the time come that we (passengers, crew, airlines) regain control of air travel from the government-imposed nonsense which is ruining it?
Glom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
Let's remember, this is an organisation that tried to ban the moving map because it might be used by terrorists on board to time their attack. The DHS don't know jack! And anyone who thinks that following there absurd rules will do anything to materially enhance safety are deluded.
If I take the train to Paris, the one without the fondling and nude-o-vision, am I more likely to be killed in a terrorist attack? I am 100% more likely to come out the other end without feeling violated.
Midex461 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3343 times:
Quoting Glom (Reply 1): And anyone who thinks that following there absurd rules will do anything to materially enhance safety are deluded.
I agree 100%. Most of us "road warriors" know that roughly 95% of what the TSA does is window dressing. The problem is profiling is a "four letter word" in the US - if one group feels that they're targeted more often than others, they can (and will) sue.
I do think the absurdity of the TSA is part of why Amtrak is gaining popularity here in the States.
(Edit to add quote)
[Edited 2010-11-18 00:49:22]
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
DUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
Quoting Skydrol (Thread starter): Has the time finally come for us to regain control of our air transportation system?
Who is us??? Last time I checked the laws and policies that were put in place were done by politicians and lawmakers ELECTED by WE the people....so if you are not happy with the current administration kick your own ass!
RamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3042 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2): At least 900 people (80% of all Americans) support these new measures.
Quoting Midex461 (Reply 3): I do think the absurdity of the TSA is part of why Amtrak is gaining popularity here in the States.
That's a great option for shorter routes, but it'll never replace air travel. I ain't riding a train all the way to Vegas or LA. The only real way to avoid the TSA bullsh-t is to not fly... and therefore never see my extended family again.
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 4): the laws and policies that were put in place were done by politicians and lawmakers ELECTED by WE the people
Yeah, keep telling yourself that...cause last I checked, at the polls we only get 2 realistic choices, and they mostly say the same things anyway. And people wonder why so few of us actually vote...honestly I wonder why anyone bothers.
The point is... we did NOT get to 'choose' anything about the TSA. All of it was forced on us.
spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2953 times:
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 7): That's too bad there is nothing you can do about that...but its your current administration that is making it more restrictive hmmmm...careful what you wish for.
The current administration has been a big disappointment to a lot of us that voted for it, but not really for the reasons that the media would have you think. I voted for Obama in part because he (and the Democrats in general) promised an end to the fear-mongering that the previous administration and their media lackeys like Fox News had been engaged in since 2001. That was part of the "change" that I wanted. Instead, we get nude-o-scopes and molestation at airports, among other continuations and expansions of policies from the previous administration that most people in this country wanted to get rid of.
I plan to write a letter to my congressmen and possibly even the president about this. It can't hurt. If enough people do it, maybe these officials will realize that the people who voted them into office in the first place are going to think twice about doing the same the next time. There may not be a better alternative for president (the Republicans are not going to argue for less invasive security, that's for sure, and anyway I don't vote based on only one issue), but there probably will be for the house and senate in 2012. Did you see the butt-kissing going on at that senate hearing for the TSA yesterday? Made me sick.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19584 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2856 times:
I think it's time for foreign governments to ban together and tell the U.S.: "We're not doing the screening that you want us to do. If that's not OK with you then we will be happy to break off all trade relations."
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17446 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2805 times:
Quoting Glom (Reply 1): Let's remember, this is an organisation that tried to ban the moving map because it might be used by terrorists on board to time their attack.
Quoting Midex461 (Reply 3): I agree 100%. Most of us "road warriors" know that roughly 95% of what the TSA does is window dressing.
Having worked for several years with both the DHS and TSA on airline security related issues in the years following 9/11, I can honestly say I've never met more mind-numbingly-incompetent people--not necessarily the ones at the checkpoint but the ones behind the scenes.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2): Not true. At least 900 people (80% of all Americans) support these new measures.
And even the ones that are raising a ruckus talk a big game, but the instant something goes wrong they'll turn their pitchforks 180 degrees and demand to know why the TSA didn't do more.
DUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2789 times:
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14): I think potential tourists and business travelers will. With their wallets.
they will still come here.... spend, and spend. They will keep visiting relatives taking vacations buying land, time shares clothes ect.....and will dance with glee through the TSA checkpoints both comming in and going out.
pylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
It will not go away. And it is not the reason to bring political issues here.
I used to do politics at washingtonpost.com and other forums.
Basically there is no difference between TSA requirements and those in other countries/airports.
I don't have any slightest problem at DME or SVO, with scanners or pat-downs, or liquids.
I just see tired security people all around the world who don't care of your body.
The pat-down takes 2 seconds. Same scanners.
What guys do you see here? What's up?
Another issue: TSA hired very young people. And I just see that they sometimes they try to enjoy their work.
And being young they try to look important.
That's what I see in many US airports: from SEA all the way to IAD.
Here in Russia, at DME and SVO they did the following: they took only females for this work. Most of them are between 30 and 50. Most used to work at airports.
So the whole process of taking off shoes and so on - it doesn't take time.
There are no lines there. Enough staff.
Here is the thing. I know that 2 aitcraft were exploded by terrorists. And those departed from this particular airport, DME.
And I see that these people don't wish it to happen again.
So I don't have any negative emotions in Bangkok or Bali or D.C. - wherever.
RamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2695 times:
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8): General aviation is an option. Unfortunately, it's not cheap.
As soon as I reach a level financially where I can afford it, believe me, I'll be going that route.
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 13): I don't think anyone will be telling the U.S. anything.
What else is new?
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15): And even the ones that are raising a ruckus talk a big game, but the instant something goes wrong they'll turn their pitchforks 180 degrees and demand to know why the TSA didn't do more.
Which leaves little hope that many would actually take a stand against the "freedom grope." I'm expecting nothing but the usual on the 24th. We love to scream and shout and wave big sticks, but when it's time to put up or shut up... we'll probably just shut up.
JHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2683 times:
The TSA is slowly take the joy and fun out of traveling. How far is too far? I think that the full body scans, pat down, and all the bans are just getting ridiculous. I mean whats next? Are they going to say that we can no longer carry any type of electronic devices on board?
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5222 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
There are two problems with TSA.
First, because of the nature of government work, you can't hire non-US citizens. So, the people who probably could make U.S. aviation security smart, effective, and efficient, namely people from countries where terrorism was problem long before 9/11, can't be hired. You can't get for a high-level position at TSA someone from the U.K., who did a methodical, orderly job of implementing baggage screening. You can't hire someone from Israel.
Second, because of the nature of TSA screening, you tend to hire people who may not be suitable to be a police officer or federal agent. I know people who feel that the people who are trying to secure an airport should be well educated, trained to deal with troublesome people (i.e., knowing how to subdue a person and handcuff him), and possible carrying a firearm.
If a city feels that every person responsible for law and order should be trained in self defense, trained to carry a firearm, and trained to diffuse serious situations (for instance, a domestic distrubance), then why does TSA have such low standards.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2447 times:
I would like to suggest that the reality of government agencies, especially those tasked with security issues, are loaded with serious problems that lead to the recently enacted increased security procedures at airports.
It took over 10 months after the crotch bomber did his unforgivable act to put in these procedures. In that time, it was still possible for someone else to do the same thing. Notice the new procedures went in about a week before nationwide elections in the USA?
As you can't have public hearings or commentary on proposed changes with details as to security procedures, those that create these policies work in a vacuum. There is not sufficient discussion with a diverse enough group of people to consider that certain parts of the procedures were going to be deeply offensive. What if some in the decision making group were Islamic, or very committed Christians or Jews, women, those with certain medical conditions, those that don't like to show themselves to strangers, and others who have presented sound objections and perhaps prevent the storm of hate toward the TSA/DHS we are seeing right now.
Excessive relying on technology presented by companies with huge interests who have bribed (with campaign contributions) key politicians that then encourage or fund these 'nude-o-matics'. Let us also not forget that TSA people have to stare at their screens to make decisions, a very boring situation and one that can lead to bad decisions to require the manual hand checks or missing a potential bomb. These machines will also not really catch internally contained bomb materials.
I hope EVERY Senator, Congress Member, Cabinet member, Military bigwig, all other government employees, media person, all their family members and other traveling with them gets the 'Full Monty' scope hands on check and the scope check. Already Rep. Ron Paul (TPR-TX) has put into the hopper in Congress a proposed bill to ban these procedures. The ACLU is also monitoring and recommending calling up Congress members to protest these procedures and may look for a situation to file a lawsuit on civil rights grounds.
devildog2222 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2417 times:
Since the other thread is locked, I'll bring it up here. Since basically all the airline pilots in the U.S. are in a Union, I wonder if they have anything planned to force the hands of TSA and the government. What I'm talking about is that all the airline pilots should strike until the TSA polices change. The TSA/GOV would be forced to change things. Also the airlines can't do anything to the pilots. I mean come on, they can't fire all the pilots.
764flyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
I remember telling me wife a few years ago after Richard Reid and the ridiculousness of taking off our shoes that it will only get worse when some joker puts a bomb in his pants. Well now we're seeing what happens. Just like our ineffective military, the TSA is fighting the last war and is always one step behind the bad guys.
So...what happens when someone tries to put explosives in his/her rectum? If we don't put a stop to this nonsense now, say hello to full cavity searches!
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21515 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2352 times:
Quoting devildog2222 (Reply 22): Since the other thread is locked, I'll bring it up here. Since basically all the airline pilots in the U.S. are in a Union, I wonder if they have anything planned to force the hands of TSA and the government. What I'm talking about is that all the airline pilots should strike until the TSA polices change. The TSA/GOV would be forced to change things. Also the airlines can't do anything to the pilots. I mean come on, they can't fire all the pilots.
The worst thing the pilots could do for this nation is to force their issue and selfishly demand an exemption. They should force the issue to demand REPEAL for all. Because if they get an exemption, it will mean that many other "classes" of travelers will get exemptions, including government workers, politicians, etc.
When politicians aren't forced to follow the same rules as the common man, they do not hesitate to impose new rules on the common man. Currently, congressmen and Senators are not exempt from these new rules, but if exemptions are granted for pilots, you can bet your butt that Congress will also get in on that. And then these rules are here to stay.
Just look at the way the congress runs their own health care, pensions, etc. They are not required to pay into or be part of the systems they are putting into law for the common man, and thus don't care how bad they are.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
: OK, my . To put flight crews through this is ludicrous. Why bother searching pilots when they can just use the aircraft as a WMD? Even if the intent w
: Ineffective military? ahh ok. why would they shake an industry that is super fragile right now?....things are just now starting to get better,I highl