lucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 460 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9508 times:
A fairly close vote....either way, it's time for both sides to move forward. It must be hard for PMNW employees to see their unions dismantled right before their very eyes.
Buddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 490 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9445 times:
Almost split. Hopefully the employees can move on and the company will treat everyone well. Good luck to all soon to be former union stewards/stewardesses, your work is under appreciated.
lucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 460 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9344 times:
Quoting nwaesc (Reply 3): Who are the 19%, and how could they not vote?
Much like with local and national elections, some people are simply too caught up with who got voted off Dancing with the Stars or the latest iphone app. to truly educate themselves. Truth be told, i would rather people like that not vote anyhow, be it for or against union representation as their vote rings hollow either way.
isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 26 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9217 times:
Educate me...
What is an "Customer Service Underwing Employee" as far as Delta Air Lines is concerned?
That is term I have never heard.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1307 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9133 times:
So if between 13,000 and 14,000 are eligible to vote and 19% don't vote, the IAM should've won right?
Someone who doesn't vote is a "yes" vote, correct?
5569 no
4909 yes
the "no show" votes, where are they?
Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
Exactly right. Just as a little history, when I started with DL, we were RSAs (ramp service agents).......the next level up was Station Agents (equivalent to lead agents).......then, in the mid 70s, the designations were changed......CSA (customer service agents), SCSA (senior customer service agent) and Lead Agents.
I think DL used the term Customer Service Agent for both above and below wing because, pay wise, etc., there was no difference between the two. In some small stations, they were one and the same.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
NWAdeicer From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 154 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9066 times:
Quoting peanuts (Reply 8): So if between 13,000 and 14,000 are eligible to vote and 19% don't vote, the IAM should've won right?
Someone who doesn't vote is a "yes" vote, correct?
5569 no
4909 yes
the "no show" votes, where are they?
No, the NMB ruled that not casting a vote means just that, no vote either way. You had to cast a "Yes" or "No" vote for it to be counted.
cokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1091 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8959 times:
And some thought Flight Attendants are apathetic.
19% not voting is sad.
However even with the new rules, they just couldn't swing it.
At least we had a 94% turnout!
I'm sure they have already filed for a re-vote like the AFA.
Lets move on, and fight the competition instead of one another.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8917 times:
So, it seems with the old and new rules, both the AFA and IAM would have lost anyway. ^% of the F/As didn't come out (all would have counted as no by the old rules) and a whopping 19% of the ACS below wing agents didn't come out. Yet, the outcome for both calls for no representation. Read on the Washington-AP wire that the IAM is "investigating allegations of interference on Delta's part". This will be quite sad if both of the largest groups is drug through a re-vote...
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
cokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1091 posts, RR: 9 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8760 times:
vote is based on who actually voted. 100 people vote and the IAM received 51 votes, then they win.
old rule was the union would have to get 50%+1 of total number of employees to vote for them, regardless on how many
actually voted. hope this clears it up
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9192 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8713 times:
Quoting peanuts (Reply 16): I am confused now. What are the new rules??? I thought if you did not bother to vote it would be in favor of the IAM.
The old rules were if you failed to vote, at all, that vote counted as a no vote. Now, if you want your vote to be counted, yes or no, you have to vote either yes or no.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8718 times:
Does the IAM pack up and go home now? What about if the vote is challenged?
Is the AFA still on the property?
I am 100% certain the vote will be challenged. They already mentioned they are investigating intimidation on Delta's part. Expect an interference call shorty...just like the AFA.
I don't know how to answer the question on whether the AFA is still on property. I would say no. As far as DL is concerned, they have been decertified and stopped union dues withholdings on the 5th of November. I would expect DL to take a similar course of action as far as the PMNW employees goes and stop the dues as of the 19th.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
KaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12027 posts, RR: 43 Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8665 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19): I don't know how to answer the question on whether the AFA is still on property.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9192 posts, RR: 14 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8656 times:
Here's the figures from a memo:
There were 10,593 votes cast – 5569 “no” votes, 4909 votes for IAM, and 115 write-in and silent votes, which means 53.6% voted against IAM representation. There were 13104 eligible voters, out of which only 37.5% voted for the IAM
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12559 posts, RR: 64 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8631 times:
Quoting peanuts (Reply 16): I thought if you did not bother to vote it would be in favor of the IAM.
No.
Under the old rules, not voting had the effect of counting as a "no" vote, as you had to have 50% plus 1 vote of ALL eligible voters to win.
Under the new rules, you need 50% plus 1 vote of only those who actually vote to win.
In this instance, the IAM got less than 50% of the vote from those who actually voted. So they lost.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8495 times:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22): Not as sad as seeing 19% not vote and a polarized workforce. There's just no winners among the employees in these situations.
The polarization I expected. Hence why the rules changed. They expected just enough to vote them in to keep the dues rolling. Well, they failed twice in the same month. The 19% not voting is pathetic, not sad. Now, they get what they get. If they wanted otherwise, they should have voted. With both being so close, it's very obviously that every vote does in fact count and getting as close to 100% turn-out is very important for both sides (union and DL). Hence the reason DL was letting everyone know that the rules are not the same and they have to vote to count.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
25 Coronado: Ok, so to summarize, is this correct understanding? under Old Rules, vote would have only been 37.5% in favor of keeping union. under New Rules, enact
26 nwaesc: No. They don;t count at all. The correct answer is "kinda." PMNW pay, benefits, etc. are still intact in order to maintain "laboratory" conditions un
27 peanuts: Ok. Thanks to all who posted above for clarifying my "confusion". So in essence: 19% are truly indifferent types. That is kind of sad. I hope DL will
28 airtechy: So, how many more voting groups are there. Gate agents?? Delta really needs to prove in the coming months and years that the majority voted correctly.
29 NWAdeicer: 2 quick questions of what i'm sure will be many more.... So now that we are technically under DL's work rules, those of us on the ramp can no longer d
30 nwaesc: And stock clerks. I believe it shows they won't; let's hope I'm wrong. You can still do both.
31 NWAdeicer: Thanks, way to many calls, questions being floated around, basically head spinning
32 NWAdeicer: I sincerely hope so, in my heart I don't believe they will. I really hope we don't see some stations in the near future turn back to DGS, REHS.
33 dlflynhayn: What a Happy day!! lets make it a landslide passenger svc!!!
34 hiflyer: I am sure, that just as there was in the recent AFA vote, that claims of interference by DL will be made. Vote is too close for there not to be. Stand
35 FlyASAGuy2005: ACS Above Wing (Gate Agents, Reservations Sales Agents, and Customer Facing Cargo Agents) and Stock Clerks.
36 rduddji: Congrats to DL. Delta employees continue to impress. Of course the Union will drag this out as long as possible (by claiming intimidation, voter fraud
37 alitalia744: Another great day for Delta's unique culture of direct relationship with management. Employees voting for or against have had their voices heard, whic
38 Prinair: Good Choice! Unfortunately the mob known as the IAM will probably challenge the election. I am an IAM member at my airline and I can tell you that the
39 nwaesc: The union itself won't "claim" anything. It will submit interference claims made by the membership to the NMB for investigation. Big difference.
40 cokepopper: If its anything like the AFA's "claims", then it's pretty sad. Delta got the word out, the the decades old rules have changed. That's it. No interfer
41 Aaron747: Glad to see another useless union rejected by the employees of Delta. This will keep the company on the track to further improvements in business and
42 NWAdeicer: I benefitted on more than one occasion from that "useless union" That "useless union" also saved my station when NWA wanted to outsource all stations
43 nwaesc: Same here. Actually, if you want to look at it that way, everyday I've clocked in since 2005 has been a direct result/benefit of the IAM advocating o
44 Surprise: I have to say the thing that absolutely staggers me about this vote is the 19% who didn't! I don't know what more Delta or the IAM could have done to
45 gonnagetbumpy: Although I strongly disagree with the union, it certainly wasn't 'useless'. I think that it was necessary at Northwest because of the hostile environ
46 rwy04lga: Shameful It seems that Delta will never be able to please you guys. Delta has/will halt/ed payroll deduction of union dues.
47 Aaron747: There was likely a business case to be made for doing so. Who knows what positive outcomes would have stemmed from doing so??
48 BMI727: Why is that sad? Maybe they really don't care, and as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong if they are indifferent. It seems obvious that neit
49 peanuts: As an employee you'd need to "be sold" on this? Mmm... My approach would be you're either "hot" or "cold". Being "lukewarm" in life over these crucia
50 EA CO AS: Considering they couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place, isn't it likely that the majority of those non-voters would have voted no anyway?
51 BMI727: Perhaps theirs isn't. The union was trying to convince people that they'd be better off with them, and the airline was trying to convince the employe
52 peachair: Yes - and the historical record will show that during the last effort to unionize the Delta "fleet service" folks back in 1999-2000, the union (I can
53 KingAir200: I think that would vary greatly depending on who you ask.[Edited 2010-11-18 19:34:40]
54 7673mech: Good. Those that voted no are smart! IAM does a horrendous job in representation. The former NWA people need to find their way without representation
55 mayor: It was the TWU..........as I recall, they only got 17% of the vote. The second time they tried to organize, they didn't even get enough cards to get
56 thegreatRDU: Good to see they were put down even with the new rules...The DL employees really don't need their "protection"....let's hope this isn't dragged on for
57 nwaesc: Thanks, and I agree. How someone could shrug this off is hard to wrap my head around. Maybe, maybe not. That's not the point, though. Regardless of w
58 b707forever: I hope DL is smart enough to work with the former shop stewards, etc to immediately show it's healthier for everyone for them to have voted against th
59 TR1: I couldn't agree more. Now the ball is in DL's court to earn the trust of those who truly wanted to keep representation in their respective work grou
60 nwaesc: They "lost" the morale of most people some time ago. The job at hand is to *prove* that what they've been promising for the last ~2 years wasn't just
61 goldenstate: Where and when did he say that? The results of the election make this point highly questionable at best. The lack of a landslide does not necessarily
62 bobnwa: You certainly seem to run with a different crowd that most of the NW/DL folks who belong to this forum as well as employees who do not belong to this
63 FlyASAGuy2005: Well then why, oh why, is the AFA and IAM (along with all the other unions save ALPA) not rejoicing? If people thought things were so bad they would
64 nwaesc: I knew someone would ask that the second I hit "send." LOL. I'll have to root through DLNet to find it again, but it was in an employee Q&A in (I
65 bobnwa: It is near impossible to prove something didn't happen. I am asking for proof that the intimidation did happen as claimed by yourself and other AFA a
66 nwaesc: Remind me again how is it that you're in a position qualifying you to make that statement? What part of the below from me did you miss the first time
67 ocracoke: Is it not true that the entire de-ice program, the entire bag scanning program, the entire frequent flyer program, and the entire behind the scenes p
68 Surprise: I think that is a reach. Maybe the people you come in contact with feel that way but it certainly isn't my experience and I think the vote justifies
69 NWAdeicer: You are assuming of course that NWAESC' station will still be M/L and he will still be on the payroll within that year My take on this. I have, and a
70 nwaesc: De-icing stayed, scanning did not. In fact, that is one of the things I'm most hoping will come back. Being able to "lock out" a flight planeside is/
71 FlyASAGuy2005: Here is a question im' sure one of 3 people currently posting can answer. What was the criteria set forth by DL/IAM/NMB to make an employee "active" a
72 ericaasen: I can't believe the 19% either, but some of it is made up of people who did not get their PIN/VIN from the NMB. I know of at least 2 people at my sta
73 Surprise: I didn't take it personal and I think it's a valid point. I also think it comes from the constant criticism of the company. I'm going to stand by my
74 nwaesc: You had to have been hired prior to 01. July. 2010. People out on any of the other criteria you listed are/were eligible as well. In my mind, those t
75 peachair: Yes, and this will not be an easy task. Thier secondary job is now gone, their leadership role (from an IAM perspective) now eliminated. There will n
76 FlyASAGuy2005: Well then I would bet a good chunk of that 19% includes the type of folks I listed.
77 rwy04lga: As would I Well I certainly am! However, I don't use darts...I close my eyes and spin a globe for a few seconds and stop it with my middle finger. Tr
78 mayor: I must have bad luck. I keep ending up in the middle of Siberia, Pacific Ocean or Cleveland. There must be a better way.
79 NWAdeicer: Would love to, however we have kids who are in competitive sports. We also would rather stay at home and enjoy our time together doing things around
80 nwaesc: ... Or they're in school... or you have a mortgage to pay... or... That's the difference; for a lot of us, this is our livelihood, and not some fun w
81 bobnwa: I think you will find that being non union will improve your quality of life as well as improving your self esteem. This is has been experiance from
82 swa4life: You DL guys are already getting taken advantage of and you don't even realize it. That "ready reserve" crap would never fly under representation. Ther
83 nwaesc: WTF? My self esteem is just fine, thank you. What a patronizing thing to write. Get over yourself. Best. Post. Ever. The worst part for me are the ac
84 bobnwa: You don't think being responsible for your own success at Delta and not having to be grouped together is not a good feeling? You are obviously a smar
85 swa4life: With all due respect, what on earth are you talking about? There's nothing preventing people from going up in the company with or without a union. Pl
86 BMI727: How can so many employees of companies be under the impression that the company exists and is run for their benefit?
87 nwaesc: How am I being held back any more/less than before? All ACS pay rates at DL are scale based, just like at NW. All performance bonuses are standardize
88 swa4life: In a way it does.. Think about what you're saying.. Ask youself, "what exactly is the point for a company to exist"? We live in a society.. It's a re
89 BMI727: Simple: To generate a return on investment for the shareholders. Everything had better justify that cost. The airlines that met that demand from the
90 swa4life: Your ignorance is laughable. Are you really not capable of viewing things outside of your "21st century capitalist" box? Companies exist for share ho
91 BMI727: So in your world the best way to run a company is to give the employees whatever they want since the happier they are the more money you'll make righ
93 FlyASAGuy2005: You guys don't cease to amaze me. You chastise those that were/are against the union but its ok for you to push your agent and be "for" the union bec
94 swa4life: This is the silly type of rebuttal that always surfaces in these types of threads.. I'm making, points, examples, observations, etc. You guys however
95 FlyASAGuy2005: Why does one have to defend that they have a right to have a different view? THIS, is what I don't. It always seemed to be an all or nothing. Us agai
96 swa4life: You're absolutely right,.. You're free to bury your head in the sand. That's your right.. Unfortunately you've stumbled into a place of conversation,
97 nwaesc: My stance on people having a collective voice in the workplace hasn't changed since I joined this site. Workers across America have been snowed into
98 mayor: Well, you're wrong and I'm afraid you'll never see the difference, either. Remember all you know of the DL culture, in practical terms, is what the I
99 b707forever: It's pretty clear from reading the thread there's still the pro and anti union presence at the "new" Delta. For full disclosure, my brother is a 35+ y
100 nwaesc: Working for DL for the last 2 years doesn't count? Those "people" aren't the ones closing stations or unilaterally altering pay/benefits. And, yeah,
101 BMI727: Well, the employees were just about the only winners in that deal.
102 tugger: Wrong. A company, in whatever form, exists to provide a service, whatever service it may be, to society, the community, someone. In return for the se
103 nwaesc: Of course there is. Look how close both of the recent votes were. Won't happen. The "threat of a union" ship has sailed...
104 cokepopper: The situation that you are talking about. ONE TRIP ? or tripS as you pointed out? Ask yourself, Didn't NW do the same thing when they were in danger
105 nwaesc: One trip... For now... What's stopping them from making it a practice?
106 BMI727: The only reason they offer that service is because they can derive a profit from it. The only reason investors are going to put their money into a ve
107 cokepopper: Yes, only ONE. if true. Not TRIP(S) NOW, how many times did NW do this?
108 swa4life: For the record, I'm the one who posed the question, not the answer... It was a quoting snafu in Tugger's reply.. I think that's a completely silly at
109 FlyASAGuy2005: I see you don't get it. I understand this is a place to post your views. You posted yours as I did mine. And you are doing the EXACT same thing to me
110 airtechy: Well, next year Delta will distribute a lot of profit sharing bucks to the employees. A least part of the availability of these bucks will be the resu
111 tugger: I quoted correctly, just looks odd with the double quote (quote of a post with a quote). I understand, and hopefully most here do too, that you did n
112 dlflynhayn: To many cry babies on here! maybe if you didn't work so much and take a vacation once in awhile(cause you do work for an AIRLINE )you guys would be mo
113 BMI727: Well, duh. You don't go into business to provide a service that fills a need. You go into business to provide a service that people will pay for. If
114 swa4life: Actually, I'm a completely unaffected party to this. At the end of the day, DL's employees being union or not does not affect my life. It just litera
116 MSPNWA: I'm jumping in here to give you credit for being better at putting thoughts into words than I am.
117 skyguyB727: She was sadly misinformed if she thought she could just call a telephone number and get her voting info. All requests for a duplicate VIN/PIN had to
118 b707forever: And based on your logic I'm sure you agree the multi-millionaire bonus maker employees on Wall Street should surrender their multi-million dollar bon
119 adtall: Why do you say that the threat of a union isn't viable anymore? Looking at it from a pre-merger DL view, the unions have always returned before this,
120 swa4life: What can I say? I just really feel bad for the long term employees of NW who've had to sit by and watch everything unravel at the hands of a bunch of
121 HarleyDriver: Just going back to why 19% of the eligible voters might not have voted. I am curious as to how long of a window employees had to vote and what methods
122 BMI727: I think that it's fine as long as the shareholders don't have a problem with it. If you think that your CEO is good enough at his job to justify that
123 dlflynhayn: Blah blah blah blah blah! There have definitly been some ups and downs but overall ive been happy at DL for 16yrs and not once have i EVER felt like
124 b707forever: I guess you didn't understand the American Tax Payers are the shareholders and had no say in anything. Sorry, unbridled capitalism with no controls i
125 dlflynhayn: I've paid off two cars working on the third one,me and my wife own a house in L.A. and Hawaii,i got one son in college and another in a private high
126 BMI727: Well, that is a whole different thread. Who gave you the power to determine who is making too much money?
127 b707forever: I'm assuming you're making more than the minimum wages say a ticket agent earns?
128 dlflynhayn: Yeah you couldn't't even afford to live in my garage in Hawaii!! And something must be wrong with your rah rah company cause he is broke probably lik
129 swa4life: DLflyn, let me assure you that I do at least as good as you do, probably better. I'm topped out at Southwest and work a healthy amount of overtime. Le
130 b707forever: So the only way to get near 6 figures is to work overtime. How much overtime a week, on average? That does wonders for family life, no doubt.
131 dlflynhayn: Well i get paid a little extra for my duties as a aircraft load agent plus with OT here and there im sure im making just as much as you.But i admit a
132 FlyASAGuy2005: Last time I checked, these "part timers" and "ready reservists" were and still are full, active employees and are a part of the team. What in the hec
133 b707forever: DL ramp agents with over 10.5 yrs of seniority make $3,669.58 per month. Not sure what that means on an hourly basis.
134 swa4life: Well it's a choice. You can be satisfied with straight time and earn around 55k, or you can choose to take advantage of almost limitless earning pote
135 adtall: It's so nice to know that, from the outside, you know exactly why we as rampers voted the way we did. I am a full-time ramper in ATL for DL and voted
136 NWAdeicer: There's that saying again, for the love of.. Would someone PLEASE tell me what I should be feeling? It's been roughly 2 years, i'm sure i should have
137 EA CO AS: Look up "profit motive" and re-think your post, keeping in mind that it's the primary reason businesses are begun.
138 swa4life: Perhaps in the short term that might be true, and I understand why that would be a tough pill to swallow. However, you would only inherit the incumbe
139 FlyASAGuy2005: Please notice I did say not everyone feels the same way. There are those that come and do the job. Not only that but do it well and respect the place
140 dlflynhayn: You know what's real funny my friend has been working over at the Ritz-Carlton for years as a bellman and he always leaves the hotel with an average
141 adtall: That may be true that in a future joint contract my benefits may have gone up. However, since I have been at Delta and I'll even exclude post-merger f
142 mayor: Don't know where you heard that, bubba, but it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Delta was (and is) a family since '71, when I hired on and I'm sure long before
143 panamair: All the current FN FAs at Delta came over from NW. NW FAs had a union and the FNs still came onto the property. DL had FN FAs before, but they were a
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