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Will The New United Be The Next 739ER Operator?  
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13778 times:

I know this topic was discussed a lot before, but that was long before the merger of UA/CO happened. I was looking at the new UA fleet and noticed the numbers of 737NG outweighs A32Xs and most of the 737NG are far newer than UA's A32X fleet, not to mention CO has(d) plenty more on order. With UA not currently operating the A321 at all, will the new UA take on more 739ERs to replace domestic 752s? It seems like the logical move as there are already over 30 739ER in the fleet and CO seems to really love them. Plus with the 2% drop in fuel burn coming, it just makes the 739ER more attractive to add right in.

On the flip side, with the A321 w/sharklets just around the corner, that can also be added to the fleet quite easily, and would be an excellent domestic 752 replacement. It's a win win either way, but I think the 739ER would seem to be a more natural fit since they're already in service.




We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2689 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13738 times:

Not be a jerk...but once the merger is totally done with a single SOC, since CO already operates the 739ER, the new UA will be the next 739ER operator... Are you asking if they will order more?

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13681 times:

I'm not sure what your point is. CO has more 737-800s and 737-900s slated for delivery. They are getting them on the order of one a month or so and are switching between 738s and 739s. The 900ER has essentially already replaced domestic 752 flying for CO since they converted all 752s to international configuration.

In the near future will UA's domestic 757s be retired with an increased 900ER order? I don't think the 757s have a retirement date planned yet. The 767s and 747s are scheduled to be gone by the end of the next decade, but the 757s keep going on. UA was soliciting narrowbodies before the merger, but that changed once they merged.

Most UA 757s were delivered 1989 ~1993 with a few more in the late 90s. CO has a few 757s delivered in 1994, but most were delivered after 1997, so they are newer birds. However the 900ER can't replace the flying that they do.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineUA933 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13618 times:

I guess that the decision will be made along the lines if there is a need to carry cargo or not. if the answer is yes then UA will prefer the 321 if no I could see them going for 739ERs


united - It's time to fly!
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13531 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
Are you asking if they will order more?

Yes, sorry I should have been more specific. I meant would UA be the next 'new' airline so to speak to order the 739ER?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I'm not sure what your point is.

Well you answered it well, thank you. I wasn't sure if CO had anymore 739ERs coming, but knew they had plenty of 738s on the way. I'd like to see DL, AS, and AA order some 739ERs, but that ain't gonna happen probably anytime soon.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13451 times:

Take a close look at the 737-900ER orders and deliveries. Lion Air from Indonesia is a problematic airline.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/737-900Erordersaugust2010.jpg

The A321 will likely outsell the 757 and will be significantly improved within a few years.

In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13449 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
I'd like to see DL, AS, and AA order some 739ERs, but that ain't gonna happen probably anytime soon.

Let's wait after the test flights of the improved 737NG are completed and the proposed goals of the fuel burn are validated. If the results are positive, there is a chance that AA and AS, maybe Delta and some other 757 shorthaul/mid-haul operators will order the improved 739ER.


User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13366 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
Take a close look at the 737-900ER orders and deliveries. Lion Air from Indonesia is a problematic airline.

That is completely irrelevant other than the simple fact that the second largest orders for the 737-900ER belong to half of the company we are discussing. UA very well may order the A321, I dont pretend to know. But if they order them based on US sales versus the 737-900ER, then I will fall over in shock.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13314 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..


Who ordered 227 A321s in the U.S.? US has a lot but not even close. NK had only 3 or 4 IIRC. Who else?



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13113 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):

Take a close look at the 737-900ER orders and deliveries. Lion Air from Indonesia is a problematic airline.

And this has what to do with the topic Keesje???

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..

I think Keesje is conveniently saying "US" when it's "US Leasing" vs "US airlines". And he wonders why we question his motives sometimes.  

Taking out the "US Leasing", we have 36 vs 40 739ER's for US airlines (also conveniently not including straight 739's operated by AS and CO) vs ... how many A321's operated by "US airlines" Keesje?

Which - again - has absolutely zero to do with the topic, and everything to do with an agenda.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13061 times:

Just to clarify, by year-end 2010 Continental (United) and Alaska will together be operating 56 737-900/900ER's. I don't offhand know of any other US operators.

US Airways has 51 A321's at this time with I believe zero on order. Spirit has I believe 2 A321's. Off-hand I can't think of any other American operators, though I'm sure there might be one or more.

56 739's
53 A321's

Keesje, can you help us out here?  

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13016 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything.

Even if this weren't a false statement (although it appears that it is), It is not relevant to UA's decision at all.

If UA's NB's are mostly 737's, and they have more on order, then it is a big indication that the 739 will be replacing the 757's

-A321's wouldn't be a bad choice by any means, but I think the fleet commonality would take priority over small economic gains they might see w/ the sharklets. As for the cargo, UA still has plenty of newer 753's that will be around for many more years, so that probably won't be the deciding factor.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12945 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 11):
If UA's NB's are mostly 737's, and they have more on order, then it is a big indication that the 739 will be replacing the 757's

I don't know the exact fleet size, but there are quite a few Airbus NB's in the new United's fleet. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that the A321 - particularly a NEO - could join the fleet. However, with the 739/ER already in the fleet, it would seem to make more sense to stick with them -IF- the 737NG is the future of the combined carrier's fleet.

If...

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12931 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
And this has what to do with the topic Keesje???

That the 737-900ER is not so hot PlanesNTrains. Therefor it is not guaranteed United sees something in the 900ER the rest of the US industry missed, apart from launch customer Continental (ex Boeing Bethune that also bought 757-300, 767-200ER and 400ER) that signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..

I think Keesje is conveniently saying "US" when it's "US Leasing" vs "US airlines".

I said nothing incorrect.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 11):
Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything.

Even if this weren't a false statement (although it appears that it is), It is not relevant to UA's decision at all.

What is false at this statement? Did you check the facts or simply copy what PlanesNTrains is suggesting?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
US Airways has 51 A321's at this time with I believe zero on order.

Nope, 27 on order  .
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/back...ents/od/Airbus_OD_October_2010.xls


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12847 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..

Please elaborate?


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12849 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 13):
That the 737-900ER is not so hot PlanesNTrains. Therefor it is not guaranteed United sees something in the 900ER the rest of the US industry missed, apart from launch customer Continental (ex Boeing Bethune that also bought 757-300, 767-200ER and 400ER) that signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing.

And aside from the US A321's (and Spirit's 2), I guess the rest of the US industry missed it as well. LOL!

Quoting keesje (Reply 13):
I said nothing incorrect.

This isn't a courtroom Keesje. When someone spins the facts to suit their agenda, there's nothing to prove. It's pretty much up to each person to make their own mind up. If you think that a US leasing company buying A321's and leasing them to foreign operators indicates the level of US carrier acceptance of the A321, then I'm not sure what else that you call that?

In regards to US having more A321's on order, thank you for clarifying. It really has little bearing on the bigger picture, which is that neither aircraft has had any broad traction with US carriers, both have been ordered by 2 US carriers totaling double-digits, the new United has 48 739/739ER's in service or on order, with many more NG options (and I believe zero Airbus NB commitments, IINM) and the thread was whether the new United (the one I just referenced in this sentence) would [continue to] order the 739ER.

Do I prefer the 739ER or reject the A321? Absolutely not. Thank you for clarifying your position as otherwise.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12757 times:
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Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
US Airways has 51 A321's at this time with I believe zero on order. Spirit has I believe 2 A321's. Off-hand I can't think of any other American operators, though I'm sure there might be one or more.

56 739's
53 A321's

Could the 10 A321 frames that Air Canada currently operates possibly have gotten counted?


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12738 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 16):
Could the 10 A321 frames that Air Canada currently operates possibly have gotten counted?

I have no idea what Keesje counted. I'm guessing, though, that when he referred to "US" he was including leasing company purchasers who happen to be US companies but who have delivered the frames overseas (and probably bought them specifically for overseas operations).

More important than the actual numbers is the fact that he even puts "227 vs 40" out there when we are discussing a US operator and not a worldwide leasing company. But it is just par for the course...

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12717 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 13):
That the 737-900ER is not so hot PlanesNTrains. Therefor it is not guaranteed United sees something in the 900ER the rest of the US industry missed, apart from launch customer Continental (ex Boeing Bethune that also bought 757-300, 767-200ER and 400ER) that signed an exclusivity agreement with Boeing.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..

I think Keesje is conveniently saying "US" when it's "US Leasing" vs "US airlines".
I said nothing incorrect.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 11):Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything.

Even if this weren't a false statement (although it appears that it is), It is not relevant to UA's decision at all.
What is false at this statement? Did you check the facts or simply copy what PlanesNTrains is suggesting?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):US Airways has 51 A321's at this time with I believe zero on order.
Nope, 27 on order  .
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/back...0.xls

And yet you still say nothing to back up your claim of 227 A321s in the USA....... which is quite clearly not true.


User currently offlinemanfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12668 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 5):
The A321 will likely outsell the 757 and will be significantly improved within a few years.

In the US 227 A321 were ordered vs 40 737-900ER. If past successes say anything..

Referring specifically to UA, there will be no more Airbus orders. The 320 will gradually be replaced by more 737's. It's just CO's business plan and always has been. As disappointing as Smisek has been, I think we can rely on him to continue his successful relationship with Boeing.

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprsied if UA cancelled their 350 order. It would make the most sense in terms of CO's fleet development pre UA merger and makes the most sense financially for the future. Sorry if no one likes my opinion, but this scenario is the most likely outcome.

Not every airline has to have a mixed fleet. CO/Delta/AA/Southewst/Alaska have all been successful doing this...as an American, I'm proud we are keeping the family solely Boeing.

Technically United will be the newest 739 customer but they are losing one with CO. The 739ER is not the perfect airplane for everyone but neitherr is the 321 or 757.

I will admit, however, the 757 appears to be the most flexible aircraft for airlines here in the United States. Long live the 757. Perhaps the 737-900ER should have been stretched a bit more, given new engines and wing and landing gear. It would have sold a bit more and been a great replacement for ageing 757's.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 12642 times:

Quoting manfredj (Reply 19):
The 320 will gradually be replaced by more 737's. It's just CO's business plan and always has been. As disappointing as Smisek has been, I think we can rely on him to continue his successful relationship with Boeing.

Has this been said, or are we assuming. I'm not saying that it would be a surprise or a mistake, but rather that I'm not sure I've heard that said before.

Quoting manfredj (Reply 19):
Not every airline has to have a mixed fleet.

No, but plenty of successful ones do, so it can be done. This is the worlds largest airline now.

Quoting manfredj (Reply 19):
Perhaps the 737-900ER should have been stretched a bit more, given new engines and wing and landing gear.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.  

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinemanfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12386 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
Has this been said, or are we assuming

Pure speculation on my part. I think the likelyhood of an all Boeing business plan for UA is a good one. I know many many airlines have mixed fleets and they work well. It's just that CO and its long ties with Boeing tied with the fact that upper management is now handling the new UA, the possibility of more Airbus orders is lessened.



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
Quoting manfredj (Reply 19):
Perhaps the 737-900ER should have been stretched a bit more, given new engines and wing and landing gear.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

All the previous threads about 739ER's crossing the Atlantic were so complicated I couldn't uderstand if it's capable of doing so all season, without fuel stops and with any profitability.

The 739ER is somewhat a fish out of water. I never understood its purpose. It's missions are not significantly longer than the -800 nor does it carry that many more passengers. Strange.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12241 times:
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Quoting manfredj (Reply 19):
Referring specifically to UA, there will be no more Airbus orders. The 320 will gradually be replaced by more 737's. It's just CO's business plan and always has been. As disappointing as Smisek has been, I think we can rely on him to continue his successful relationship with Boeing.

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprsied if UA cancelled their 350 order. It would make the most sense in terms of CO's fleet development pre UA merger and makes the most sense financially for the future. Sorry if no one likes my opinion, but this scenario is the most likely outcome.

There have been a dozen threads with this logic accompanied by the assumption that Continental is taking over United.

In fact, nobody is taking over anybody. The United-Continental Holding Company is exactly that -- pretty even-Stephen management with neither company in charge of the other.


User currently offlinemanfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12164 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 22):
In fact, nobody is taking over anybody. The United-Continental Holding Company is exactly that -- pretty even-Stephen management with neither company in charge of the other.

Jeff Smisek: President and Chief Executive, United Airlines (previously of Continental)

Jim Compton: Executive Vice President (previously of Continental)

Nene Foxhall: Executve Vice President Communications (previously of Continental since 1995)

Zane Rowe: Executive Vice President (previously Continental airlines)

Mark Bergsrud: Senior Vice President, Marketing (previously Continental)


It think it's pretty simple who is running things at United Continental Holdings. The list goes on and on. Why even paint the airplanes with United titles? Why keep the Continental colors? This airline is run by the best and brightest from Continental.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11689 times:

Quoting manfredj (Reply 23):
Jeff Smisek: President and Chief Executive, United Airlines (previously of Continental)

Jim Compton: Executive Vice President (previously of Continental)

Nene Foxhall: Executve Vice President Communications (previously of Continental since 1995)

Zane Rowe: Executive Vice President (previously Continental airlines)

Mark Bergsrud: Senior Vice President, Marketing (previously Continental)

You conveniently left out the EVP's that came from United.

All in all, the management group is fairly evenly mixed between Continental & United, and, hopefully, consists
of the best and brightest of both carriers.


25 MCOflyer : Per airfleets, CO has 12 737-924's and the rest are 924ER's with one on order for a total of 32 924ER. US Airways has 51 A321 with none on order. I re
26 Antoniemey : Keeping in mind that CO can convert any of their current 737 orders to 739ERs up until assembly is begun on that frame... CO's 737 orders are always
27 PlanesNTrains : It's sort of the 748i to the 773ER. A niche upgrade. Looking at the spreadsheet that Keesje linked to, it says the following: US Airways: 78 ordered
28 MCOflyer : PNT, US does need that much A321's as they are able to fill them. They are money makers on routes such as PHX-SAN, CLT-LAS, PHL-MCO, CLT-MCO, PHX-CLT.
29 PlanesNTrains : Awesome. I have never flown on the A321 (or A318 or A319 or 736 or 739) but to me the A321 seems like an ideal medium-haul people mover. If US can us
30 PacificClipper : That is a loaded statement. I think many would beg to differ on that presumed brilliance.
31 Post contains images keesje : If United want to replace the 757s, a A321NEO has a higher payload, would be bigger, longer ranged, more fuel efficient and silent then a 737-900ER Pl
32 kgaiflyer : This appears to be a red herring perpetuated by Continental fanboys as there are equal numbers of bot UA and CO executives at United-Continental Hold
33 2travel2know2 : The new UA is already a B737-900ER operator since it includes all former CO B737-900ER. Question might be "Will the new UA reamain a B737-900ER opeara
34 RoseFlyer : Rather than looking far off into the future, I think based on Continental's current delivery plans and the trends of the whole 737NG program that the
35 KC135TopBoom : That is just the 2010 Airbus order book. I don't see any US based airline on that spreadsheet. What I do see is 35 2010 orders for the A-321; Finnair
36 RoseFlyer : To a degree I understand your logic. The 738 to 739 seating difference is about 15 seats in standard configuration (alaska airlines for example). The
37 EA772LR : Well the 739ER is capable of carrying an additional 26 pax against the 738/739(nonER). That's a big difference, and it has an extra 100-200nm of rang
38 UAL777UK : I would not bet on that, there is a very good arguement as has been mentioned on may threads why the 350 was ordered, not least one suspects with the
39 Post contains links keesje : KLM wet leases 737-700s for scheduled AMS-IAH flights, 5000mi. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-IAH They will be bigger longer ranged aircraft for UA
40 Viscount724 : You are referring to a PrivatAir BBJ1 with several additional fuel tanks reducing cargo/baggage capacity drastically, not a standard 737-700 which CM
41 EA772LR : I should hope so. It also has 11,400lbs of additional thrust and 17,000lbs heavier at MTOW. When you look at what the 739ER accomplishes with it's mu
42 RoseFlyer : UA has publicly pointed out that the A359s are slated to replace 747s and not 777s. UA has no scheduled replacement or even a point when they will ma
43 PacificClipper : Thanks for making these statements. I normally stay silent on this and don't want to turn this into an A vs B war but I'll say this. My dad worked on
44 kgaiflyer : The original premise of this thread, "Will the new United be the next 739ER operator," was asked *and* answered by the OP. Given that fact, it's amaz
45 Post contains images keesje :
46 Post contains images KGRB : RFPs are kinda like dating. You aren't necessarily looking to get married; sometimes you just want to check out who's on the market. I think that's w
47 PlanesNTrains : If the combined system doesn't need as many 757-sized aircraft as before, then you're right. But if the combined airline has a continuing need for al
48 KGRB : I agree. I think that the new UA will end up replacing the oldest 757s with more 739ERs and keep the newer ones on the routes where the 757's capabil
49 PacificClipper : Of course, how could we forget that you are on the inside track having been Glenn and Jeff's personal assistant.
50 kgaiflyer : C'mon. That's silly. The new UAL is a business rather than a private club. Unless price is no object (and who does that?) good business practice will
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