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Ron Paul: TSA, "Enough Is Enough" & Opt Out Day  
User currently offlinetxkf2010 From Bermuda, joined Nov 2005, 208 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9632 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G57nqxSPkc

Not much needs to be said by me.


...Rastafari Stands Alone...
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

I guess it's a pain until you're sitting next to a guy who blows himself up!!! I'd say, if we can live with a few planes going boom then let's end the process. If we can't, line up for the thrill of the search!!! Personally, if they will hire some nice looking women TSA agents I'll be more than happy to be searched. Done right, a good search might be a good pick me up for the early morning flights!!!

User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9320 times:

I can just imagine conversations about "happy endings" and "expanding devices" in my pants.

User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9277 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 1):
I'd say, if we can live with a few planes going boom then let's end the process.

No planes have gone boom in this country in the last 10 years. And the ones that did in 2001 did so because of box cutters, not bombs, and those would be detected by standard metal detectors.

What we've seen over the last ten years are two things:

1. It is extraordinarily difficult to detonate a bomb on board a plane even under the best conditions.

2. Terrorists will stop at nothing to try anyway.

Given both of those points, these new security measures are worthless.

Lest we forget, Pan Am 103 happened because of a bomb in checked baggage. Are all checked bags being given as much scrutiny as the passengers are these days?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 2):
1. It is extraordinarily difficult to detonate a bomb on board a plane even under the best conditions.

...So? Does that mean we should just forget about it and hope that it never happens? There are millions of these lunatics just waiting for Osama to send them on missions like this and they'll keep trying until they succeed. Sooner or later, the "successful" one is going to happen, and hundreds will die as a result.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
Given both of those points, these new security measures are worthless.

Pretty sure the Christmas Day guy had a bomb in his crotch, so I don't know how searches meant to find such bombs are worthless...


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9150 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 1):
I'd say, if we can live with a few planes going boom then let's end the process. If we can't, line up for the thrill of the search!!!

I understand your point, however, TSA is doing things wrong way.

I said it before, I'll say it again: fire every single TSA agent and hire Israelis. Best airline security in the world, without the need for a patdown and x-ray body screeners.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinecygnuschicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9070 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 5):
without the need for a patdown and x-ray body screeners.

Both times I flew through TLV (2006, 2009) I had a patdown, including the groin.

I just don't get the fuss. For those complaining about the TSA, when last have you tried -
- Transiting through the nightmare that counts for security at LHRs new T5?
- Checking in at GRU, and experiencing crazy send-around check-in procedures, long "exit immigration" lines and random searches by military types?

I travel a lot, and ORD is my home airport. While security lines can be long, they are quick, relatively efficient and work. TSA is definitely one of the less annoying parts of my trip.



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8999 times:

The whole point of government is that it can do things that individuals can't. It's got a monopoly on using force for example. This whole idea that the government can't do anything that individuals can't do is false in every way.

User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8939 times:

If you give up your rights when buying an airline ticket, then those rights are not in fact rights. That they're rights means you can't give them up as a law abiding citizen. You have the right to refuse to be photographed naked and to refuse having your naughty bits touched. It should be illegal to refuse carriage because you're exercising these rights. Those who are too afraid to fly without these infringements in place should drive to where they want to go.

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8920 times:

How I wish George Carlin was still alive to make a mockery of all this BS.. His opinions on 'rights' was bang on the mark...

User currently offlinerwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 1):
I guess it's a pain until you're sitting next to a guy who blows himself up!!! I'd say, if we can live with a few planes going boom then let's end the process. If we can't, line up for the thrill of the search!!! Personally, if they will hire some nice looking women TSA agents I'll be more than happy to be searched. Done right, a good search might be a good pick me up for the early morning flights!!!

It's just insane how warped our perspectives have come over the last several years.

Since 9/11, tens of thousands of Americans have died in car accidents. Yet, there's no hysterical response. There's no mandatory interlock devices to make sure you aren't drunk. There's no annual driving test to make sure you still have the necessary cognitive skills. Nothing.

Since 9/11, thousands of Americans have died due to gun related violence. Yet, we've seen no movement to reduce gun violence, no federal mandate, no intrusion into our every day lives.

So I guess I just don't understand all the hysteria about flying by the TSA. Why do we accept such invasive measures when we fly, but would never accept them when we drive, carry a gun, or do just about any other thing? Why are certain deaths okay, yet others lead to this massive level of intrusion by the federal government?

CFBFrame, would you accept an interlock device on your car every time you drive? Would you accept metal detectors everywhere you go, because there's a risk of gun violence? Why are you so willing to give up your rights when you fly?

Let's keep some perspective people.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 8830 times:

Go Ron Paul. He said exactly what I would have said. Couldn't agree more.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7914 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8638 times:

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 11):

No car crash I've ever seen killed 3,000 people, nor any gunman has killed 3,000. Neither have caused such emotional pain on the country. And how many car crashes are because of foreign terrorists trying to kill us? Gun violence, while there, has been hyped by the media to some extent, and for the most part, is not used by Al Qaeda in the US.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 11):
Let's keep some perspective people.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8533 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 1):
If we can't, line up for the thrill of the search!!! Personally, if they will hire some nice looking women TSA agents I'll be more than happy to be searched. Done right, a good search might be a good pick me up for the early morning flights!!!

For those who think it's funny or trivial, here's what actually happens:

Imagine your sister or daughter having her breasts cupped and felt to determine whether she's wearing a padded bra. Then the screener runs a hand up the inside of her leg until it "meets resistance" - i.e. touches her vulva. Then she is asked to unfasten her belt and the screener runs a hand over her body inside the waistband, touching her butt and upper pelvic area.

Next, it's your son's turn. The screener runs a hand up the inside of his leg until he encounters "resistance" which may be your son's penis (if he's wearing shorts) or his testicles (if he's wearing briefs). The screener is expected to determine if it's really a penis or testicles, or a "package" of some kind that may require further examination. Then, if he's wearing pants with back pockets, his butt will be felt to ensure there's nothing in the pockets. And finally, the waistband check.

That's the reality!

And meantime, the bad guys have moved on to the next tactic anyway.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 4):
Pretty sure the Christmas Day guy had a bomb in his crotch, so I don't know how searches meant to find such bombs are worthless...

- How will a grope distinguish between Depends and underwear stuffed with explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a sanitary pad and a package of explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a thick penis and a penis wrapped with a layer of plastic explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a thickly padded bra and one padded with explosive?
- Will people with colostemy bags have to show them to TSA?

After every attempt to bring down a plane, security measures are introduced to address that attempt - and guess what? Terrorists move on to another method. I'm sure it hasn't escaped their attention that drug mules have been using body cavities for years and if they're caught, it's as a result of good criminal intelligence and/or profiling, not random cavity searches of the travelling public.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 4):
..So? Does that mean we should just forget about it and hope that it never happens? There are millions of these lunatics just waiting for Osama to send them on missions like this and they'll keep trying until they succeed. Sooner or later, the "successful" one is going to happen, and hundreds will die as a result.

Yeah, MILLIONS. That's why basically nothing ever happens. Name me more than five events where these MILLIONS have done anything in the last ten years regarding non-political / self defense issues in Iraq or Afghanistan. Or more precisely targetting Westerners exclusively.
Anyway, I am glad that you are still scared of the CIA boogeyman. Haven't heard much from him lately, I wonder why.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8425 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 14):
Imagine your sister or daughter having her breasts cupped and felt to determine whether she's wearing a padded bra.



In many countries around the world a person is entitled to be searched by a person of the same sex. I know that whenever I have been patted down in PER it has been a male officer doing it, while when I have travelled with my elderly mother she has always been checked by a female officer. In places like DXB they even have special enclosures with female officers and my mother has been checked in one of these because she was in a wheelchair. The only time my mother has been approached by a male officer is when they are using a hand scanning device and that doesn't involve physical contact.

Do passengers in the US not have the right to be searched by a person of the same sex?


User currently offlinemarkalot From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8415 times:

I think the question is fairly simple.

Did the terrorists win? Are we terrorized?



M a r k
User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8385 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 14):
How will a grope distinguish between Depends and underwear stuffed with explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a sanitary pad and a package of explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a thick penis and a penis wrapped with a layer of plastic explosive?
- How will a grope distinguish between a thickly padded bra and one padded with explosive?
- Will people with colostemy bags have to show them to TSA?

I've had the grope, but have a question...Hoping someone can answer....
If after they grope and touch your junk, they determine you may have something on your person, and it is some thing they can't identify, do they they ask you to bear all? or how do they handle that? Deny you access to the boarding area cause your junk doesn't match their standard, or do they physically inspect by looking at the skin?

Would be quite hillarious if most men on 11-24 decided to wear a sports cup.

[Edited 2010-11-19 05:29:38]

User currently offlinecygnuschicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 14):
For those who think it's funny or trivial, here's what actually happens:

Those who try to appeal to emotion and install a sense of guilt generally do so because they don't have any rational argument to stand on.

If you don't like it, don't fly. Get over it. Many countries have airport security that makes the TSA look like summer camp.



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8322 times:

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 7):
Both times I flew through TLV (2006, 2009) I had a patdown, including the groin.

I just don't get the fuss. For those complaining about the TSA, when last have you tried -
- Transiting through the nightmare that counts for security at LHRs new T5?
- Checking in at GRU, and experiencing crazy send-around check-in procedures, long "exit immigration" lines and random searches by military types?

I travel a lot, and ORD is my home airport. While security lines can be long, they are quick, relatively efficient and work. TSA is definitely one of the less annoying parts of my trip.

I personally agree with you 100% here. I travel all around the world for business and have seen just about anything you can imagine, airport security wise...from zero security in small African regional airports, to Israeli "hardcore" security in TLV, and none of it has really bothered me. Yes, I know some people argue that I may be giving up my civil liberties, but in some cases like this I am OK with it...call me crazy, that's my personal opinion.

I am traveling on November 24th, and the biggest thing that pisses me off is knowing I may have to arrive earlier than normal just because some people might try to make a statement that does nothing more than delay my getting to see my family in Chicago for Thanksgiving.


User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8301 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 14):
For those who think it's funny or trivial, here's what actually happens:


I never said that, and I think this entire issue is driven more by fear than logic, But we as people have to be willing to make the tough choices and accept the consequences. No way is any of this funny but;

Quoting markalot (Reply 17):
Did the terrorists win? Are we terrorized?


In the end they took our freedom because we chose to fight fire with fire!!!!!!


User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8237 times:

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 19):
If you don't like it, don't fly. Get over it. Many countries have airport security that makes the TSA look like summer camp.

Yeah, it will probably get to that at airports with hoards of 200-500 people waiting outside the TSA checkpoint. The suicide bombers will just enter the crowd, and get as much attention or more than the downing of a 767.


User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 19):
If you don't like it, don't fly. Get over it. Many countries have airport security that makes the TSA look like summer camp.

And many countries don't enjoy the protection of the Bill of Rights. What's your point?

Will a screener patting down someone do a better job of detecting explosives than a trained explosive sniffing dog?

Would the dog do better than the strip search scanner would?

Of course, highly trained dogs wouldn't need expensive lobbyists that used to work at TSA....



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8249 times:

So interesting that the TSA has placed all these back scatter machines out and about, and they have avoided the very airport Atta, boarded the aircraft for his connection in BOS. PWM is not on their list.

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 24):
Will a screener patting down someone do a better job of detecting explosives than a trained explosive sniffing dog?

Would the dog do better than the strip search scanner would?

I'll take a person running his hands over my "personal areas" rather than a dog with sharp teeth!

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 25):
So interesting that the TSA has placed all these back scatter machines out and about, and they have avoided the very airport Atta, boarded the aircraft for his connection in BOS. PWM is not on their list.

Because PWM could have been any airport. It could have been PVD...MHT...BTV.


25 EricR : I think the issue here is that the government is going to be criticized for what ever route they decide to take. If they take a relaxed position on se
26 Santi319 : Is that even a question, this histeria is amazing, never seen anything like it anywhere in the world...I think some Americans should start travelling
27 Post contains images Coronado990 : Haha. Remember Pirates. They were terrorists at one time. None we ride the Pirates of the Caribbean at Disney World. Remember Indians (Native America
28 cygnuschicago : Again, I just don't get the fantasy of multi-hour screenings and 100s of people waiting to be screened. In the week after the parcel bombs, I flew mu
29 Glom : So 3000 deaths require no response providing they are caused by a great many low profile events rather than a single high profile event? 3000 deaths
30 Post contains links starrion : That was what they used to do. This is what they are doing now: See this link: http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13534628 and this one: http://w
31 Indy : And what people seem to forget is that those box cutters were perfectly legal to be carried on a plane. It wasn't a lack of detection. Airport securi
32 SolarFlyer22 : They're frankly extremely overrated. They have a much easier target (Palestinians) who don't travel much in their system and are easy to single out.
33 SolarFlyer22 : I love the comparison to cattle. lol
34 starrion : Most of the dogs I have seen used by CBP for tasks like this are Beagles. Find a less threatening dog (that isn't a puppy) than a Beagle, and you win
35 ckfred : You wouldn't need to check his crotch, if someone had asked some good questions, such as: Where is you baggage? Why don't you have a winter coat for
36 davs5032 : Self defense? You've got to be kidding me. Are you that naive? Or do you have so much political correctness brainwashed into your mind that you can't
37 ridgid727 : Just goes to show you, the sterility of their thinking is really compromised. So if you're a penis bomber, get the explosives in your strap on, buy a
38 Frostbite : Honestly, is this how you recall the state of affairs at airport security checkpoints prior to 2001, when security WAS handled by private contractors
39 DocLightning : You assume that these scans are going to protect us. They won't. So if AQ does it that makes you more dead than you would be from a drunk driver?
40 bwphoto : I got a kick out of this, too. Before 9/11, the "screeners" in BOS barely spoke English, were routinely rude, and to the best of my knowledge were pa
41 IMissPiedmont : Not much of a worry there. It's a risk I'd accept, especially since it wouldn't happen. They don't need to do anything but sit back and wait while ci
42 Post contains images Markam : Nope, it is in fact exactly the opposite. If you don't like that flying implies a slight safety risk even after every constitutional safety measure i
43 DUALRATED : Beagles are used for agriculture only...other types are used for detecting money, people, firearms ect. not accurate at all they have many sworn enem
44 jfklucky777 : It is still the airport operator's responsibility to make sure that the private company who they're paying are meeting and should be exceeding their
45 blobusus : People take one of several sides on this issue: Safety above all. I'm perfectly willing to give up my 'rights' if that's what it takes to make things
46 DocLightning : You're right. Here's what matters:
47 Access-Air : I have to agree.. These things WERE allowed.....This could NOT be blamed on Airport Security, but the failure of our Govt. to adequately follow up on
48 WildcatYXU : Could someone be so kind and explain to me how will all this that's going on in US airports prevent someone from copying the NW253 attack?
49 srbmod : A reminder: Please keep the political comments out this thread, as the only forum such posts are allowed is in Non-Av. If you post Ron Paul 2012" (or
50 United1 : It has been found, by the courts, that it is reasonable for a person to be screened/searched prior to boarding a flight via a pat down/frisk...you ha
51 DUALRATED : And for the last time the above does not apply when you CONSENT to be searched when entering the checkpoint area at an airport. Furthermore as stated
52 spartanmjf : There is no case law on the 'enhanced' groping that is now being used. Case law on travel into and out of the US is one thing - the challenge on dome
53 starrion : Exactly. Complain loudly to your elected officials. If you have plans that you can cancel and don't want to put up with these processes then cancel t
54 Kaiarahi : Really? Supreme Court decisions are irrelevant? The boarder search exception was established by case law, which you've just said is irrelevant! And f
55 EricR : The examples you provided were both escalated levels of search. They are not examples of the pat down that people go through if the opt out of the bo
56 Geezer : Quote: jfklucky777 Reply 6 Go Ron Paul, and Go privatization of our airline security; Wait a minute.......for those who think "private firms" can do a
57 Post contains images DUALRATED : Hmmm lets see if you do not give your consent to be screened then.... (see below) its really quite simple
58 Post contains images Markam : The new screening procedures have not been brought in front of the judiciary yet, and they are substantially more invasive than the previous ones, so
59 Post contains images Markam : You are not addressing Kaiahari's point... He is referring to the fact that while it is true that a court has ruled in favor of the whole screening c
60 Frostbite : Well put. Although I take issue with some of your later statements - I think it is very dangerous to assume that future militants will fit one narrow
61 DUALRATED : There is NO invasive search, the traveler contents to the screen. OK..thats fine..In meantime its the LAW and must be complied with period. I detaile
62 Markam : In that case the traveler might be subject to harmful radiation, and be seen all but naked by TSA. I wouldn't be surprised if a judge is not very hap
63 DUALRATED : No the TSA is not to blame especially if the "opt out" is an organized event which by now everyone knows it is. furthermore i would not be suprised t
64 markalot : I don't blame the TSA employees for anything, they are doing their job as best as they know how. May primary complaint is that we've gotten so scared
65 starrion : Security at any large facility has to be managed in all areas to be effective. If you build a huge fence around three sides of a facility, it's effec
66 aerorobnz : excellent call. Anyone that scared and paranoid about terrorist attacks while flying should not take a calculated risk to fly, and that is far less d
67 EricR : In reply 34 you said "A lot of people who fly know that the TSA checkpoint offers little real security". I mentioned the TSA checkpoints do offer a l
68 coopdogyo : Finally a like minded person. This is the perfect solution. As a 16 year old boy I love this idea.
69 iairallie : They are worthless because the AIT machines would not have been able to detect it.
70 DocLightning : The problem is that you cannot withdraw your consent and walk back out. Also, there are not supposed to be "exceptions" to the 4th Amendment. These a
71 starrion : Let me be more clear: Systemwide, there are greater security holes that mean that -overall- security does not really protect the traveller very well.
72 DUALRATED : TSA Week At A Glance: 11/08/10 Through 11/14/10 6 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints 11 firearms found at checkpoints 6 passeng
73 Threepoint : I'm afraid it's the vocal people like yourselves that have contributed to the new American reputation of being a nation of frightened little sheeple
74 DocLightning : Hyperbole is gross exaggeration. While their protocol is not to cup the testicles, their protocol is to touch them. So it's not hyperbole at all.
75 Jonathan L : An average of 12 million people fly in the USA a week, and out of those they found a negligible amount of bad things. It seems to me that a firearm c
76 lewis : Does it specify what they were? >100ml contact lens fluid or something? I'm guessing that if it was something important, like an explosive device,
77 ltbewr : It appears that the TSA will soon not require pilots to go through the 'full Monty' checks as they have been cleared 12 different ways as to their bac
78 DUALRATED : I posted what I did because of what was writtin below ...nothing to do with scans or patdowns. Which is why I said it works for me.
79 Jonathan L : Where does it stop? If somebody conceals a bomb inside of their rectum, should we start giving cavity searches to board a plane?
80 lewis : Ah ok I just read the full post you were replying. But, if 6 artfully concealed prohibited items were found, in the whole of the US, in a week, how m
81 odysseus9001 : Crazy season has started. Look. People can choose to fly or not. Thats right--they have a CHOICE. If they don't like the security, they don't have to
82 Markam : Why is that? If the TSA gives people the option to choose the scanner or a pat down, they cannot then blame people for opting out, no matter whether
83 Post contains images Markam : Sure, but why should people who care about safety prevail over people who are worried about safety, but are not willing to give up their fundamental
84 Indy : I think that we as a people need to decide what the limits will be. We are the ones flying and we are the ones subject to danger. Collectively we shou
85 Post contains images DUALRATED : Please... I know that administration up there in DC is useless, but they are accountable. its been done. Its starting to catch on... And as many time
86 SA7700 : This thread has run its course with no constructive or positive content being added anymore. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for
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