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Skyteam To Meet Garuda In Jakarta 11/23 To Sign MOA  
User currently offlineseamefly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9266 times:

Here's the article from The Jakarta Post:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...garuda-indonesia-join-skyteam.html

Also in the local news in Jakarta, Garuda Indonesia & Jakarta International Airport will dedicate terminal 2E & 2F for Garuda & ST passengers (sorry, news is in Indonesian):

http://industri.kontan.co.id/v2/read...inal-Soetta-untuk-SkyTeam-Alliance

[Edited 2010-11-19 12:43:18]

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroMexiBoi From Mexico, joined Aug 2007, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9079 times:
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Here's a source in English:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...k-skyteam-agreement-next-week.html



Since 2010: CO 739/CRJ, AM 737/E190, EK 772/332, QR 320, KL 332/738, AF 380/320, LH 744/346, US 320, AS 737, DL 763/752
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7613 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Yes, this was expected after AF-KL's informed a few days ago that GA would be accepted as a member.

I think this is very good for GA, but I wonder if SkyTeam will get bad press because of its decision to enroll an airline with a not-so-great reputation. I also wonder why GA is more attractive to SkyTeam than MH, and if GA's entry actually cancels all possibility for MH to join.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
decision to enroll an airline with a not-so-great reputation.

Garuda has a stellar reputation in terms of safety. It was the indonesian safety standard that was in question. EU wouldn't have banned Garuda had it not been for the idiocy of indonesian department of transportation.



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineseamefly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8847 times:

The question is, with the dedicated ST terminal, who will be next to touch down in Jakarta ? DL ? AF ?

User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6952 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

2E and 2F dedicated to SkyTeam will not be a big deal. How "dedicated" is dedicated is probably going to be "relative" after a brief discussion with the airport guys.

Quoting seamefly (Reply 4):
The question is, with the dedicated ST terminal, who will be next to touch down in Jakarta ? DL ? AF ?

AF closed Jakarta after the merger with KLM and I doubt we'll see them back here for a while. China Eastern could end up landing here before they join ST. China Airlines already does.

Who from ST will add CGK? I reckon Aeroflot and Vietnam...

No one outside Garuda expects any jumps in pax volume on ST carriers into Jakarta after Garuda joins. However the airport seems to "demand" a 10% pax flow increase from ST in exchange for "facilities improvements."

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7613 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8814 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 3):
Garuda has a stellar reputation in terms of safety. It was the indonesian safety standard that was in question. EU wouldn't have banned Garuda had it not been for the idiocy of indonesian department of transportation.

Thanks for the explanation, but, see, that is exactly what people don't know... travel agents and travelers alike will have many reservations in connection with GA because they won't know these details that you eloquently explained... that is after all bad reputation. Perception, when negative, can be very damaging to a company; whether it is rightly deserved or not is an altogether different matter.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6952 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6):
travel agents and travelers alike will have many reservations in connection with GA because they won't know these details that you eloquently explained.

At least Garuda is no longer banned by the EU... Getting the ban exemption if I remember correctly was a condition required by ST on GA's application.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7298 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 7):
At least Garuda is no longer banned by the EU... Getting the ban exemption if I remember correctly was a condition required by ST on GA's application.

Mandala499

I believe it was also, the question now is, are they still banned by the US?



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6952 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 8):
I believe it was also, the question now is, are they still banned by the US?

Both the US FAA Category II country rating and the EUETC (did I type that right?) are sanctioning our regulator... the DGCA. Now once the regulator gets hit... the airlines regulated under it are hit.
Both sanctions are on inadequate regulatory oversight.
The EU allows exemptions to be given provided the airline argues that their own safety oversight is adequate and that the regulator has performed adequate oversight on that airline.

The EU sanction means "stop all flights to EU airspace" whilst the FAA means "status quo on your flights to the US." Unfortunately there are no status quo flights into the US by Indonesian airlines in 2007 when the "sentence" was handed out. Now both the FAA and the EU sanction allows exemptions to be given if our airlines fly there on aircraft wet leased from an airline from a country with no restrictions/sanctions given to it... this extends to codeshared flights.

So... we can start flights using wet leased aircraft (given no hiccups in the other formalities).

As far as I know an airline cannot get an exemption from the FAA Category II like the EU does. The entry into SkyTeam is mainly aimed at the European and Asian market and not the Indonesia-US market (as long as the FAA Country Category II on Indonesia is in place).

But yes... This is one heck of a PR challenge regarding "perceptions"... I don't think it will affect SkyTeam members (other than Garuda when it joins)...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
I also wonder why GA is more attractive to SkyTeam than MH, and if GA's entry actually cancels all possibility for MH to join.

my thoughts exactly! why ST is so reluctant to add the last first rate Asian airline available is beyond my understanding!


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

Quoting MOW (Reply 10):
my thoughts exactly! why ST is so reluctant to add the last first rate Asian airline available is beyond my understanding!




Well there the fiction A net story out there that AF is blocking the MH entry into ST, but no one has ever produced a single bit of info to back up that claim.


User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6733 times:

I wonder if DL will consider restarting the old NRT-CGK or will they depend on KE and Garuda to fill this gap to the US?

With all the Asian members coming on board, when will Skyteam look more at Africa and South America?

New Asian Members
China Airlines
China Eastern
Vietnam
Garuda
possibly Malaysian
Courting Jet Airways



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1854 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Well there the fiction A net story out there that AF is blocking the MH entry into ST, but no one has ever produced a single bit of info to back up that claim.

Agreed. I 'm still waiting also for the slightest evidence of this  


User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6267 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Well there the fiction A net story out there that AF is blocking the MH entry into ST, but no one has ever produced a single bit of info to back up that claim.

But still it is the only theory existing, isn't it?


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

[quote=centrair,reply=12]when will Skyteam look more at Africa and South America?

Well, as for S America there is the prospect that AR will join in 2012:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...as-argentinas-to-join-skyteam.html


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1854 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5984 times:

Quoting MOW (Reply 14):
But still it is the only theory existing, isn't it?

Why not simply that MH do not want to join an alliance and/or is not ready and/or is under political influence, etc etc
Because, if it was true that Skyteam do not want them, they could have joined OW (star has already too much carriers from SE Asia with TG and SQ while OW has "only" CX + which is not exactly in SE Asia)


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7613 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 16):
Why not simply that MH do not want to join an alliance and/or is not ready and/or is under political influence, etc etc
Because, if it was true that Skyteam do not want them, they could have joined OW (star has already too much carriers from SE Asia with TG and SQ while OW has "only" CX + which is not exactly in SE Asia)

Well, considering that MH has made substantial changes to its European routemap reinforcing CDG, FCO and AMS (LHR and FRA are the only airports in Europe served by MH that are not SkyTeam hubs), it would appear that MH does want to join. Anyway, I guess this will remain as one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of the aviation industry haha.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5831 times:

yeah don't understand why MH hasn't been picked, but best of luck to Garuda. I hope this helps them build up. Indonesia is a big aviation market and CGK is well located for regional connections, but I do think that Malaysian would be a better airline to take on star in the region who have TG and the mighty SQ.

[Edited 2010-11-22 17:37:09]

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 12):

With all the Asian members coming on board, when will Skyteam look more at Africa and South America?

Africa is well covered with KQ and the Africa - Europe services af both AF and KL. Maybe an airline in Western Africa, but none are interesting at the moment (or Arik maybe?).


User currently offlinelychemsa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1237 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

I suppose it is because of the Dutch / KLM connection. It's a shame because Skyteam / DELTA is the worst of the US programs.

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5348 times:

Just for the record, the MOA has been signed (see press release http://www.skyteam.com/news/headlines/20101123.html)

GA will be in Skyteam by 2012 if everything goes according to plan.


User currently offline9MMAR From Malaysia, joined Jul 2006, 2110 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

If the 'fiction' about MH and AF are not true, it won't emerge in the first place. This theory has been around for many years now. MH recently yet again stressed out about wanting to be part of SkyTeam:

Quote:
Some news from MH CEO:

Malaysian Airline System Bhd, the national carrier, is open to joining a global airline alliance and believes closer cooperation with SkyTeam members would be “beneficial,” Chief Executive Officer Tengku Azmil Zahruddin said in an email to Bloomberg today.

Members of the Skyteam aviation alliance include Delta Air Lines Inc. and Air France-KLM. “We are able to offer SkyTeam a major hub in Asia,” Tengku Azmil said. -- Bloomberg

.

Quote:
In a recent conference, Pillars of Aviation, MH's CEO said alliances are good for the customer, it offers choices. Want to get in, but with a position of strength.

.
.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 16):
Because, if it was true that Skyteam do not want them, they could have joined OW (star has already too much carriers from SE Asia with TG and SQ while OW has "only" CX + which is not exactly in SE Asia)

MH dismissed OW invitation to be one of the few founding members in the early 2000s. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._m0CWU/is_2000_June_6/ai_62527183/

MH put a condition to QF and BA to relocate their Kangaroo hubs from SIN to KUL, to which both airlines disagreed and subsequently pulled out entirely from Malaysian soil until this very day. MH did not want to only act as a feeder to QF and BA at SIN.
.

Quote:
It was the attitude that MH is one of the best airline in the world, need not bend backward to meet partners interior standard and MH should joint at preferential terms that MH didn’t join any Alliance in the 90’s. OW invited MH to be a founding members but was rejected by the then PM for OW is dominated by colonialists. Unless MH can build a cordial working relationship with BA, QF and CX, it is unlikely OW will negotiate with MH on terms of joining.

.
There is no way MH is going to pursue OneWorld. It's like licking one's own spit.
.
.
As for SkyTeam, everyone knows MH submitted a formal inquest to join SkyTeam in 2006, to which it was turned down by AF citing various reasons (one of which that I can remember is that MH's financial performance was then billed as unfit for SkyTeam's requirement). MH had its Enrich FFP to mirror AF/KL's Flying Blue, focussed its European destinations to SkyTeam hubs, codeshare with AZ, CZ, DL, KL, KE and (the then) CO all of which are SkyTeam members, having a special FFP partnership with KL, AF and DL et al since 2006. But MH was left in the dark seeing its inferior neighboring rivals - VN, CI and now GA - one after another cutting its queue for the elusive appointment. Why is this so?

The rumour mills are saying that the reasons being:

- AF and QF have a lucrative codeshare agreement on the Kangaroo route via SIN and HKG. MH's inclusion into SkyTeam is said will jeopardies this agreement.
-

Quote:
It started years ago over slots that MH wanted at CDG. AF used their power there to block MH getting them initially but MH then cleverly used the fact that at the time the French were attempting to sell some Scorpene Submarines to the Royal Malaysian Navy, and asked the Malaysian Government to insist MH got the slots at CDG as part of the deal. MH succeed, which left AF fuming and they still don't seem to have got over it.

-

Quote:
There seems to be no sign of a thawing in the relationship between MH and AF (who have been against them joining) any time soon.

*Some of the facts quoted above are copied from the replies by forumers in MalaysianWings and SQTalk forums.


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3339 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 22):
If the 'fiction' about MH and AF are not true, it won't emerge in the first place. This theory has been around for many years now. MH recently yet again stressed out about wanting to be part of SkyTeam:

Senior Delta executives have alluded to MH joining SkyTeam in recent weeks. The world is evolving rapidly and the AF/MH history is going to be just that soon...history.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6952 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5296 times:

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 22):
- AF and QF have a lucrative codeshare agreement on the Kangaroo route via SIN and HKG. MH's inclusion into SkyTeam is said will jeopardies this agreement.

Let's not forget AF interlines pax on SQ to get to CGK from SIN after it pulled out to put KLM's CGK flight in a better position.

MH also has a history of cooperative agreements with GA. The code-share agreements between GA and MH in 2002 is still in place and that during the GA's pull out of Europe... MH carried significant numbers of GA pax... (albeit on MH tickets since it ended up cheaper). Since the AF/KLM merger there has been discussion between GA and MH regarding SkyTeam... at what level those discussions happened... I don't know for sure.

The rumours amongst a small number of analysts regarding AF's apparent "unapproval" of MH's application to SkyTeam goes beyond the lucrative codeshare SIN/HKG to Australia.

Now still on the rumours... if MH was rejected because of the Kangaroo route codeshares with QF... why does AF not oppose GA's entry?
Simple... GA's European strategy is from CGK and Australia is predominantly from DPS. So if GA flies CGK-Europe nonstop... going to Australia means an extra stop/transfer @DPS... so... AF's codeshare with QF can continue.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
25 9MMAR : Well those who are in favour of MH are actually hoping that DL to be more vocal rather than letting the French to run the show. MH used to have a ver
26 HiJazzey : Interesting debate. I don't quite get why AF would hang on so dearly to their codeshare with QF, though. I can understand that it's a lucrative route,
27 ryanair!!! : There are significantly more premium passengers to / from / via SIN than KUL. That alone would be reason enough to keep the agreement with QF in plac
28 Post contains images SKY1 : It's true sometimes it has been told on this board AF is not apparently happy about seeing MH as a new SkyTeam partner. Following the facts from 2006,
29 HiJazzey : True. SIN-CDG is a higher yielding O&D market than KUL-CDG. However, how big a component is O&D for AF on the route? I get the impression tha
30 EddieDude : Could AF live with MH in the alliance, not codeshare with MH on KUL-Australia flights, and continue its relationship with QF? I mean, perhaps this is
31 skyhigh : Garuda is currently going through a major overhaul of it's aircraft, product and image. It was awarded the "Most Improved Airline" at the prestigious
32 mandala499 : Quite big... Ongoing connections are mainly to Aussie... hence does not justify going further down south... (CGK was dumped and the flight ended up a
33 davescj : I think Garuda is an important addition to ST for several reasons. Is it going to be SQ anytime quick? No. But ST is expanding (GOL in South America,
34 LJ : I reckon you mean Aerolineas Argentinas as GOL won't be part of Skyteam I think you miss the former ties between Indonesia (Holland) and Vietnam (Fra
35 EnviroTO : If MH is run as a business what happened in 1999 when they put forward conditions unilaterally and were denied is irrelevant. If MH sees value in joi
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