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AA 747s And MD-11s-How Long And What Routes?  
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15484 times:

I know that AA had the 747 for some time and also the MD-11 for a while as well, although neither of them stuck around for a real extended period of time. For tri-jets, it seemed AA stuck with the DC-10 for the long term and didn't seem to go bigger than the 777 once they did away with the 747.

My questions are how long did they have both types, what kind of routes they flew since AA really had little or no presence in Asia in the '80s when they had the 747 when other carriers would send their 747s to Asia. Finally, why did they get rid of both types and since they had the stint with the 747, why didn't AA go with the 743 or 744 later on?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15436 times:

Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
inally, why did they get rid of both types and since they had the stint with the 747, why didn't AA go with the 743 or 744 later on?

The 747 was far too big for AA routes when they acquired their 741s. When they put the 741s in service I don't think AA had any international routes other than YYZ/MEX/ACA. But like several other U.S. carriers, they all thought they should have at least a few 747s whether they made economic sense or not. The DC-10 was much more appropriate to the AA network.

AA converted about half of their 16 741s to freighters during their last few years of AA service.

When AA was awarded the DFW-NRT route they had nothing with the range and purchased 2 of TWA's 3 747SPs for that route, which were later replaced by MD-11s which were replaced by 772s.


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

I believe the 747 were used frequently on the Hawaii routes and the HNL-SYD and guam, American Samoa. Overall I do not think that the 747 was really a major component of their fleet, correct me if I am wrong on that. The MD-11's and DC-10s were the 772 precursor. Thinking of today about the only route that I think could really use a 747 is the ORD-DEL, that is always overbooked in all 3 cabins. If AA started LAX-PEK maybe could use a 747, I would say if UA is not starting LAX-PVG then that could be another. The LHR routes are all about frequency over size, and quite honestly, AA is not all that strong in the rest of Europe.

As for how long they had them, I believe AA got the 747's in the early 70's, they were all gone by '95. I am not sure when they got the MD-11, but those were gone by the 90's, maybe up untill 9/11


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15294 times:
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Quoting ordjoe (Reply 2):
I believe the 747 were used frequently on the Hawaii routes and the HNL-SYD

I thought the Australia routes were operated by 707s the first time around , and by DC-10-30s on the second attempt , as far as I am aware the AA 747s did not operate to Australia .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15223 times:

747-123s were used on:

JFK-LAX
JFK-SFO
JFK-BDA
JFK-SJU

Until about 1976.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

AA purchased 16 747-123s from Boeing in 1970. All sixteen were used on high density routes within North America. As mentioned above, they were not used on AA's flights to Hawaii, Australia, and New Zealand, which began in July, 1970; 707-323s were used on these routes.

Some of the routes AA used 747s on between 1970 and 1974 were:

JFK-SJU / LAX / SFO
JFK-DAL-LAX
LAX - BOS / IAD / DTW / ORD
DTW-ORD

In 1974, after the first energy crisis, AA grounded seven of their sixteen 747s. One of the grounded aircraft was sold to NASA for the space shuttle program. The other six were converted to freighters; two for AA, three for Flying Tigers, and one for Trans Mediterranean of Lebanon.

The remaining nine passenger aircraft were used mainly on JFK-LAX / SJU. One was converted to all coach, for charter flights.

In 1978-79, one of the aircraft was leased to Braniff.

After deregulation, the 747s were used on HNL-LAX / DFW and LAX-ORD / DFW, in addition to JFK-LAX / SJU. After Braniff's collapse, the 747s were also used on DFW-LGW, pending the arrival of ex-NZ DC-10-30s.

The four 747Fs that had been sold to Flying Tigers and Trans Mediterranean were repurchased by AA in the late 1970s, to replace 707-323Fs.

All of AA's 747s were sold in 1984 / 85.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15174 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 2):
As for how long they had them, I believe AA got the 747's in the early 70's, they were all gone by '95.

All 16 AA 741s were delivered between June 1970 and June 1971. Several were disposed of as early as 1974 and the rest later in the '70s and early '80s. I think they were almost all gone by 1984, a couple possibly a year or two later.

The 2 ex-TWA 747SPs were with AA from 1986 to 1994.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 15060 times:

I recall that some AA 747SPs were flown on JFK-BRU in the very early 1990s.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineAA B777-200 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2001, 505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14730 times:

The MD11 was ofcourse purchased for replacing the 74Ls on DFW-NRT. Eventually the MD11s also flew SJC-NRT and SEA-NRT.
Later on AA deployed them on routes linking the US (JFK/DFW/ORD/MIA) with Gatwick, Heathrow, Buenos Aires, Santiago de Chile, Frankfurt, Manchester, Paris, San Juan and Santo Domingo.
A few domestic routes were MIA-DFW and MIA-JFK.


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14620 times:

I recall AA ran the MD-11 on a SJC-CDG for a short time in the 90's

User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14566 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 9):
I recall AA ran the MD-11 on a SJC-CDG for a short time in the 90's

That flight always ran as a 763 and didn't start service until April 2000.

They did run SJC-OAK-NRT on the DC-10 on some days before the runway was extended in San Jose. They also sent the MD-11 on the SJC-NRT route.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13057 times:

AA was not very happy with the performance of the MD-11, and leased 2 or 3 to South Africa in the late 1990s to early 2000s. Often the DFW-NRT routing in the winter months had to make a fuel stop in SEA or Portland, OR. The B-777-200ER easily made this route year round. AA only kept the MD-11 for 5-6 years, and the DC-10-30s outlasted them by about 1-2 years. IIRC, AA canceled the contract with MD for the MD-11 after they had received about 14-15 of them.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12840 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
AA was not very happy with the performance of the MD-11, and leased 2 or 3 to South Africa in the late 1990s to early 2000s. Often the DFW-NRT routing in the winter months had to make a fuel stop in SEA or Portland, OR. The B-777-200ER easily made this route year round. AA only kept the MD-11 for 5-6 years, and the DC-10-30s outlasted them by about 1-2 years. IIRC, AA canceled the contract with MD for the MD-11 after they had received about 14-15 of them

AA used MD-11 on a wide spectrum of routes, they were used to LHR from JFK, MIA and ORD. DFW to LGW was atleast onw daily MD-11. MIA to EZE was also flown by MD-11 before the 777 arrived on the AA property.


User currently offlineb707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12473 times:

My fondest memories of my time with AA (1974-1978) were riding up front on a 747 to LAX or SJU. Upper Deck was still a lounge and the FA would bring a table for dining if you were seated in the middle of the second F cabin. The table clipped on to a smaller table and you'd have a full table for 4 as the F seats swivled. To think this was on a trans con where today you're lucky to get a decent meal says something, but I'm not sure what. Of course the 'flat' seats today are better in F than the well reclining and wide fabric seats of old, but there was a certain elegance and class about the two F cabins on those 747s, even without the flat beds, maybe it was the spaciousness, that feels missing today on AA. Maybe I'm just closer to becoming a 'senior!'

User currently offlinedab1778q From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11332 times:

Why's about the 747 in AA's fleet and some of the MD-11 items I don't know about. But it is interesting to note that AA was the airline that prompted Douglas to build the DC-10. AA wanted a wide body airplane to service high density domestic routes. The original DC-10 was a wide body twin angine airplane. Douglas tried to sell it to other operators and other operators would buy it only if they could use a big airplane like that overwater. ETOPS had not been "invented" yet so AA compromised with Douglas and agreed to a three engine airplane. So the DC-10 we all know was born. Ref: "McDonnel Douglas, A Tale of Two Giants".

User currently offlineWindowFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

AA DC-10s were used for POS service back in the 80's. Not sure if they came from JFK or MIA though.


Flown: A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ-200,Dash-8,HS-748,Concorde
User currently offlineAirFrance744 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10978 times:

From a previous thread:
BOS-NRT: Has Anyone Flown This Non-stop? (by PavlovsDog Sep 29 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
AA applied for, and received approval for, the route back in 1999. They wanted to fly a daily MD11 BOS-NRT-BOS. However, while the route authority was granted, AA could never secure the slots at NRT. By the time slots became available, the tech bubble had collapsed, thus evaporating much of the demand that would have made this market profitable. AA still holds the route authority.



Flown over 115,000 miles and I'm only 19!
User currently offlinePagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10869 times:

AA did not use 747's on their South Pacific runs, at least into or out of Pago.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10430 times:

Quoting dab1778q (Reply 14):
But it is interesting to note that AA was the airline that prompted Douglas to build the DC-10.

They (AA) also encouraged Lockheed to build the L-1011, but never placed an order. I wonder if the L-1011 series would have been more successful if AA had bought them instead of the DC-10.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39834 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10408 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 5):
LAX - BOS / IAD / DTW / ORD

I flew ORD-LAX American 747-100 wearing a clamp-on tie when I was 4 years old back in 1977.

Quoting b707forever (Reply 13):
My fondest memories of my time with AA (1974-1978) were riding up front on a 747 to LAX or SJU. Upper Deck was still a lounge and the FA would bring a table for dining if you were seated in the middle of the second F cabin. The table clipped on to a smaller table and you'd have a full table for 4 as the F seats swivled. To think this was on a trans con where today you're lucky to get a decent meal says something, but I'm not sure what. Of course the 'flat' seats today are better in F than the well reclining and wide fabric seats of old, but there was a certain elegance and class about the two F cabins on those 747s, even without the flat beds, maybe it was the spaciousness, that feels missing today on AA. Maybe I'm just closer to becoming a 'senior!'

All this talk about American Airlines 747s and TWA, I just had to include a clip from the move 'Hell Up In Harlem' from 1974.
Check out the AA 747-100 upper deck scene starting at 1:09.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gytFXuwhaxQ&feature=related


The American Airlines 747-100 has to be the most beautiful airliner/livery combination to ever grace the sky.  


BTW, the American Airlines 747-100 used in both Airport 1975 and Airport 1977 were sold to UPS.
Right?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineJalap From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 355 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9562 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
I recall that some AA 747SPs were flown on JFK-BRU in the very early 1990s.

Indeed, after they were no longer needed for the route to Japan they used the SP's to BRU for about one year. I was told back then that a very low dollar rate played a part in their decision to use the SP's to Europe (LHR and BRU).
In any case, for a while in 1991 and/or 1992 BRU saw a daily 747SP and a daily DC10-30 (from ORD, I suppose). Those really were the days! Before 1991 and after 1992 we only saw 767's, it would take till 2000-something before we witnessed the next switch in equipment.

This shot has both the SP and DC10 in it:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © J.Laporte



User currently offlinekwidenka From Poland, joined May 2007, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9546 times:

I remember seeing a few MD-11s at LHR in the late 90's


time to ride the sky
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6179 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9525 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
When AA was awarded the DFW-NRT route they had nothing with the range and purchased 2 of TWA's 3 747SPs for that route, which were later replaced by MD-11s which were replaced by 772s.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Often the DFW-NRT routing in the winter months had to make a fuel stop in SEA or Portland, OR.

That happened with the SP too, to the point Crandall was very pissed with the performance of the route. It worked because at the time there was not much competition for AA from that part of the US. But the diversions into SEA were pretty high.

I flew the MD-11 DFW-ORY in 1992 and ORD-DFW in 1999

[Edited 2010-11-21 13:03:22]


MGGS
User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1644 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9421 times:
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Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 5):
AA purchased 16 747-123s from Boeing in 1970. All sixteen were used on high density routes within North America. As mentioned above, they were not used on AA's flights to Hawaii, Australia, and New Zealand, which began in July, 1970; 707-323s were used on these routes.

AA did fly their 747’s to Hawaii

In 1981, I flew on an AA B-747 from JFK to LAX, and the airplane was continuing on to HNL.

I heard the FA announce that the passengers continuing on to Hawaii who decide to leave the airplane and go into the terminal during the layover, to take their boarding passes with them for reboarding,

I think the flight number was AA 1.

JetStar


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4006 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9390 times:

I believe the first route for AA's MD11s was BOS-SJC-NRT. They noticed right away about the performance problems of the MD11 when they started the service. SJC had to extend the runway beyond what the airport thought and were told they would need for the MD11 to take off and fly to NRT without any restrictions. So they brought the D10-30ERs in for a period of time until they could get the runway extended. The flight made an immediate stop in OAK to finish fueling as they were not able to get off the ground.
Once AA had gotten some of the kinks worked out in the MD11 program, the BOS-SJC portion of the flight was flown with the same aircraft so they had a "true" one stop flight on BOS-NRT. Of course this later to changed to a 762 and in the end when they stopped flying SJC-BOS-SJC, a 752 was used.

AA couldn't get the MD11 out of SJC soon enough as soon as they received the first few 77Es, they placed it on SJC-NRT-SJC right away which of course we know they were very happy.

In regardst o SJC-CDG-SJC, this flight was always flown with a 763. MD11 service was never planned nor was it for their SJC-TPE-SJC flights. A 77E was used . It was sad CDG & TPE were very short lived.

I don't think LAX ever saw the MD11. I believe they flew DFW-LGW frequently.


25 N62NA : Hehehe... and then at 2:04 they cut to an outside view of the wing.... of a 707!
26 mikesairways : Yeah, and it's even more sad to see whats left here at SJC.
27 planeguy727 : My first MD11 flight was LHR-ORD on AA. Had exit row window in Y. Was a pleasant flight as I recall.
28 TOMMY767 : AA did some interesting routings with widebody aircraft in the 1990s. I think the most interesting were the A306 deployments to LHR from 1999 through
29 laca773 : You hit it on the bullseye, Tommy767. In addition to these cutbacks and hub eliminations, SJC saw their first hub with the Air Cal merger develop nic
30 contrails : Some more AA MD11 routes, all RT: ORD-MXP DFW-ORD DFW-MIA (IIRC)
31 Frostbite : Thanks for that - fantasitc vintage airport footage!
32 Post contains images lemonkitty : The proof is in the schedule... LK
33 Viscount724 : In the April 1, 1981 OAG AA had 3 daily LAX-HNL flights -- 1 747 and 2 DC-10s.
34 Post contains images Superfly : I scanned in an awesome AA 747 Hawaii ad from 1981 from a National Geographic magazine. When I get home, I'll upload it to my Photobucket account. Gl
35 PZ : I remember taking the MD-11 on a GRU-DFW flight in August 2000
36 jetstar : Was the 747 to HNL AA1 Jetstar
37 The777Man : AA flew MD-11s on LAX-NRT, MIA-LAX and sometimes even DFW-LAX, all routes RT Some of them ended up with UA. They actually endded up with 20 of them.
38 American 767 : Yes, from ORD. 1989 and 1990. American started flying to BRU in 1989. I remember when they flew the 767 to BRU from Hamburg, with continuing service
39 milesrich : AA operated their 747's initially JFK-LAX, JFK-SFO, DAL-LAX, ORD-LAX. One of them was sold to NASA as the Shuttle Lifter airplane and still sports the
40 Hirnie : AA also flew ORD-FRA and DFW-FRA with the MD11. I´m not sure about JFK-FRA but I think they did that as well. In the early 2000s we used to have thre
41 Post contains links and images Superfly : Here is that American Airlines 747 Hawaiian ad from 1981.
42 jfk777 : LAX-NRT was not flown by MD-11, they had left the fleet when AA started the route. AA didn't fly from LAX to Tokyo until after 9/11 when DL dropped t
43 WA707atMSP : Please read my entire message!
44 aacun : 747 also flew between JFK and SDQ back in the 70´s.
45 WA707atMSP : Yes. On June 17, 1982 I flew AA 41 (727-200) DTW-LAX, then connected to AA 1 LAX-HNL. AA 1 had originated in JFK. When the 747 pulled into the gate a
46 CairnterriAIR : For a period of time in the early 70's....AA flew the 747 into BDL........from JFK as a final leg of a trans-con service.
47 Post contains images tymnbalewne : I came across some old photos from the late '70s. Can anyone tell if either or both of these pics are from AA's 747s?
48 pliersinsight : That was epic. And people would say the food would kill you.
49 laca773 : I remember the MD-11s flying to DFW. Was that mainly for utiliization purposes? Didn't the LAX-MIA flight continue onto South America (GRU or SCL)? I
50 timz : I'm guessing it wasn't a substitution-- the MD11 went thru, NRT-SJC-DFW both ways for ... dunno how long.
51 United_fan : I have a magazine ad from the 70's promoting AA's 747's to Hawaii. I can post it when I get home.
52 IndyWA : I know for a fact the MD-11 flew ORD-FRA in Summer 1993, I was on one and was thrilled at the time. Then flew back on a DC-10 FRA-DFW
53 WA707atMSP : Another AA 747 ad promoting Hawaii from 1981 / 82 got them in trouble. The ad showed an AA 747 over an island, but the island was surrounded by a cor
54 Post contains images Viscount724 : That only lasted briefly. It's had the same single blue cheatline as the other ex-JL NASA shuttle carrier aircraft since the early 1980s. Photos of t
55 Tan Flyr : On Dec.04, 1993 I flew on AA 900, MD11 from EZE-MIA...that was my first MD-11 flight as I recall.
56 Post contains images United_fan : Here ya go;
57 tymnbalewne : I don't think that's AA upperdeck. To me it seems either to be a Hollywood mock-up or, perhaps IB? If you go to the 1:40 mark you'll see what appears
58 Viscount724 : That video also shows him boarding a 707, immediately followed by a 747 takeoff, then the upper deck scene. Typical movie inconsistencies.
59 MakeMinesLAX : Not directly, though. According to my JP Airline Fleets, Pan Am was in possession of two 747-123s (N670PA, ex N9670 and N674PA, ex N9674) in 1985, wh
60 The777Man : That may be true but by 1993, five ex-AA 747-123s had ended up in the UA fleet. The777Man
61 TOMMY767 : IIRC, AA didn't fly LAX-NRT until the early 2000s with the 777.
62 Superfly : True but is still an awesome scene. Not sure why they couldn't show him boarding a 747 lower deck since they already had the upper deck for the shoot
63 Post contains links and images TrijetsRMissed : DL received several of the later, well-performing MD-11s, new from MDC. En route stops were more frequent in the early days (91-93), before the PIP m
64 MakeMinesLAX : I did a bit more research and found that five -123s (N9663-N9667, re-reg'd as N153UA-N157UA, respectively) did indeed fly for UA in the '90s. From wh
65 The777Man : I noticed that in an old JP as well that four of the -123s came from CargoLux. I guess CargoLux must have purchased them but never got around to conv
66 Post contains links LAXintl : No can do on the LAX-NRT. AA did not commence LAX-NRT until April 2004. Cargolux did more than freighter flying - they had a 3rd party leasing busine
67 DL_Mech : When DL was painting UA 747's in the mid 90's, I remember one 747-123 had some interesting things etched into the skin after the paint was stripped o
68 The777Man : I stand corected; AA did not fly the MD-11 LAX-NRT but they di fly it LAX-MIA and LAX-DFW and they did have 20 MD-11s in their fleet. The777Man
69 laca773 : Like I was saying earlier in the thread, LAX-NRT service started once SJC-NRT got the axe!
70 LAXintl : No they both ran side by side for a bit. LAX commenced April 2004. SJC cut October 2006.
71 strandedinbgm : Nice....
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