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How Come US Carriers Don't Use Russian A/C?  
User currently offlineGoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11943 times:

If Aeroflot uses the a319 through 321 and the 737, why doesn't DL for example utilize IL-86, 76. Or the Antonovs and Tupolevs? I figured they didn't years ago b/c of the Iron Curtain and not wanting western influences and all, but what about today? Lastly, were they ever chartered by someone from the USA? Diversion?

Being Russian I think it might be cool to fly in a Russian-made a/c.


From the airport with love
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11943 times:

Quoting Goblin211 (Thread starter):
why doesn't DL for example utilize IL-86, 76. Or the Antonovs and Tupolevs?

Same reason Aeroflot isn't using any of the old Soviet jetliners (with the exception of the IL-96) anymore.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11925 times:

1. Historically the US carriers have long standing relationships with Boeing and now with Airbus.
2. Public perception
3. Availability -- it takes a very long time for Russian manufacturers to produce a small number of airframes
4. Airframe support
5. Little to no second-hand market
6. Until recently the technology of Russian airliners made them very fuel inefficient when compared to their Western counterparts


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11882 times:

The problem is that for much of the last decades, Russian aircraft were not competitive. The technology was old, fuel burn was high, and many did not meet noise requirements. As new aircraft are being developed (like the Sukhoi Superjet), this technology gap has been greatly reduced.

Then we get to the point that Russian aircraft have an image problem in the West. To many people, Russian aircraft = Soviet aircraft = old, rickety and dangerous. The Russian manufacturers will have to put a lot of work and effort into PR if they want this stereotypical perception to change.

EDIT: See the post above mine for confirmation.

[Edited 2010-11-23 10:52:36]


Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11846 times:

7. Aircraft safety and certification. Most former USSR types are not compliant with US/European certification testing and standards.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinehausauflennon From Barbados, joined Jul 2009, 86 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11518 times:

This is an interesting question that I've asked myself in the past. I wonder how types like the Sukhoi jet will fare in the West. I can see some smaller carriers throughout the West, particularly in the Latin America, Caribbean region, perhaps playing with the idea of the Sukhoi jet, but not any major US carriers for sure.

User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11219 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
7. Aircraft safety and certification. Most former USSR types are not compliant with US/European certification testing and standards.

If something isn't certified in the US/EU, then can it be flown to those countries by a foreign carrier?


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11085 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 6):
If something isn't certified in the US/EU, then can it be flown to those countries by a foreign carrier?

There's a difference between accepting an aircraft for ops into a country and certifying an aircraft for use by a carrier from said country.

But there are also examples where entire aircraft types are banned from a given territory. The Tu-134 may no longer be operated on services into the EU, but is still operated in many CIS countries.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently onlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10990 times:

Except for the Antonov heavy lifters are there any civil aviation aircraft that Russia makes currently that out perform western aircraft in a similar mission profile? It also seems that the manufacturing rate is too slow. Orders sit on the order book for years and years until it no longer makes sense to buy.

User currently offlineBureaucromancer From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10980 times:

That said, most of the newer types are at least intended for full European and FAA certification. The real problem is ensuring availability, support and efficiency at this point. Combine that with the fact that there just hasn't been any aircraft that makes importing Russian types worth exposing a business to the risks involved and it hasn't happened; as to whether it will - well, it depends, but I sort of doubt that anything is going to dramatically change the concerns about after market support or delivery timelines anytime soon.

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1385 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

Under-supported, non-maintainable ... unserviceable. And that's just the technical side of things.


From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7617 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10759 times:

Aeroflot operates a fleet of 74 Airbus and 14 Boeing aircraft and just six IL-96s and has 23 Airbus and 17 IL-96s on order.

S7 Airlines operates 30 Airbus and 8 Boeing aircraft and a sole IL-86 and has 19 Airbus and 10 Boeing aircraft on order.

Transaero operates a fleet of 52 Boeing aircraft with an additional two EMB120s and just three Tu 214s and has 2 Boeing and 2 Tu 214s on order.

Of course there are many Russian airlines primarily operating within the Russian Federation that operate fleets entirely composed of Antanov, Ilyushin, Tupolev and/or Yakovlev aircraft. But if the more significant Russian international airlines do not fly more than a few Russian manufactured aircraft there has to be a good reason why they chose primarily Airbus and Boeing fleets.


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10712 times:

Quoting hausauflennon (Reply 5):
I wonder how types like the Sukhoi jet will fare in the West.

The SSJ is the most non-Rusky (read: western) jet produced in Russia. Just about every major player is used in the SSJ.. Thales, Boeing, etc.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10642 times:
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Quoting luckyone (Reply 2):

This post answers the question very well.

If the Russians suddenly produce an aircraft that can outperform any of the Airbus/Boeing range then you will see an sudden increase in European carriers using it, then followed by the US carriers. While politics/PR was an important factor we will see economics playing a graeter role in the coming years. If the Sukhoi SSJ is good enough it will get the orders,maybe leading on to a larger succesor.........


User currently offlineplanesmith From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

Western airlines don't use Soviet aircraft for the same reason that Soviet airlines don't...  

User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8412 times:

Frankly Russian airframes are known for their sturdiness and rugged performance...the main reason is lack of after market support, and engine performance...I suspect if Western engines can be fitted to their airframes, and part/maintenence support becomes as reliable as A&B standards, the reasonable price of Russian aircraft will make them more enticing to Western airlines in the future.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8369 times:

The same reason they dont fly the A380.

Why buy something foreign when there is something US made that does the job just as well (or better), that doesnt undermine US jobs.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2686 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 16):
The same reason they dont fly the A380.

Why buy something foreign when there is something US made that does the job just as well (or better), that doesnt undermine US jobs.

Wait one while I go get my extremely small violin.

Seriously, do you realy believe that?
Explain JetBlue, Delta/Nortwest, United, Spirit, and countless others that operate Airbus aircraft.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 16):
Why buy something foreign when there is something US made that does the job just as well (or better), that doesnt undermine US jobs.

If you think any US airline thinks of public interest and not their own advantage first, you left this earth long ago - there are too many A320s in the US to make this a reality.

IF I see a potential for the Russian industry, it would be with dedicated cargo aircraft. Cargo is far less to be cinvinced to board an Antonov than passenegers a Tupolev.


User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting Goblin211 (Thread starter):
why doesn't DL for example utilize IL-86, 76. Or the Antonovs and Tupolevs?

Because they lost the bloody war


User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2686 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting Max777geek (Reply 19):
Because they lost the bloody war

Cheers.... I just snorted Dr. Pepper all over my screen.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1416 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8078 times:

Quoting Max777geek (Reply 19):
Because they lost the bloody war

Which war are you referring to?



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1603 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

I guess he is referring either to Crimea War, or Russia-Japan war in the very beginning of the 20th century.
Otherwise there is nothing to refer to, isn't it?


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7673 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):

IF I see a potential for the Russian industry, it would be with dedicated cargo aircraft. Cargo is far less to be cinvinced to board an Antonov than passenegers a Tupolev.

I'm not so sure the latter is a particularly big problem any more. Perhaps when the USA was centric to the aircraft industry and the largest single market for commercial aircraft in the free world, but it has long since lost that crown thanks to growth in the Far East and Europe. There isn't such a strong stigma attached to Tupolev's, Ilyushins etc... elsewhere, sure there still some bias, but it's not on the kind of unworkable level that the American market has towards Russian manufacturers.



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6948 times:

I think they are referring to The Cold War...

I would love to see the Sukhoi become successful in the Western world...Boeing and Airbus need some competition...


25 RoseFlyer : Antonov has sold to western companies since they have some unique products. Antonovs are the only Russian planes likely to be seen in US skies nowaday
26 pylon101 : Sure I know about it. It became a common place. Bu then I was a soldier of this war and a winner too. As many as millions of Russians who hated commu
27 ETinCaribe : Very interesting topic. Are there any Russian made planes currently operating TO the EU and TO the US?
28 luckyone : Do please inform us the plethora of aircraft (and manufacturers) located in the Far East. Perhaps you mean that South American country called Brasil?
29 Post contains images etherealsky : And both of those features are unnecessary in the US/EU, where the quality/scope of infrastructure is very good (although not perfect). They had to b
30 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Re-read my post. I'm not talking about where manufacturing takes place. I'm referring to any aircraft in stating that the US market is no longer the
31 Severnaya : Quite a lot, various Antonovs, Ilyushins, Tupolevs flying every day in the EU.
32 Trucker : Isn't there a problem with contracts in Russia too? You make a deal to buy X number of planes at a certain price with certain specs and a year or 2 la
33 Burkhard : Add Canada to that list, and you are complete. Can you refer to such a forecast. What I know is that today 50% of all airliners are built in the US a
34 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Again: Dan
35 Burkhard : I asked for some more hints what you refer to with "and how it is forecasted to continue to change in the future". Building aircraft is something the
36 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Yes, the latter part was my point. Dan
37 Post contains links VV701 : While you are talking about where the aircraft are built it is very clear that PlymSpotter is talking about something very different, namely the geog
38 Post contains images gr8circle : I don't think either side actually won or lost the Cold War.....the former Soviet Union just took the initiative to dismantle itself.....so the CW en
39 pylon101 : Right, at least we here understand it this way. And most Russians will celebrate this great even next year in December: in 1991 presidents of Russia,
40 FX1816 : Yup, at my work I get to deal with at least 2 MiG-15's and occasionally an AN-2. It's kind of cool having to give a traffic call between an F-18 and
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