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BA Looking Into PTY  
User currently offlineualcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10629 times:

http://www.prensa.com/

Couldn't get the direct link to the page but it's in the business section for today (11/25/2010). Basically, the articles says BA is looking into PTY, perhaps as an extension to LHR-SJU. The article is factually incorrect as it states that BA is part of Star, which CM will join shortly, and would use CM's connections to LatAm to their benefit. Perhaps there's some confusion with LH?

I actually think this would be a great route for LH given connections with CM once it joins Star.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 894 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10560 times:

BA would actually surprise me. My two cents is on LH starting a service from Frankfurt and KLM moving out instead.


www.airevents.com
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10451 times:

Panama attracts BA from www.prensa.com - In Spanish
Today Panamanian newspaper La Prensa had news about BA having some kind of interest to fly LON-PTY.
It's not fully understood if BA really wants to tag-on PTY to its new SJU flights which start next year.
Also, the reporter described BA as a Star Alliance member, which it's not, but for the record, not being in the same alliance as CM, doesn't hinder CM and BA to code-share, as CM currently does with Sky Team KL.
It's known that Panama Tourist Authorities had met BA officials to try to woo them to return to PTY (once upon a time BA flew to PTY via KIN/NAS/BDA), but it most likely be from LGW, since it seems that's where BA has based the aircraft it has available to fly to PTY.

IMHO, BA to PTY via SJU is a bad idea, because SJU does requiere in-transit passengers, even if inside the aircraft, to hold valid US visas.
And one must remember, that anything BA does now in Latinamerica has to have IB blessing, so if IB feels threaten that a possible BA LON-PTY, even from LGW, will take some seats from its MAD-PTY, BA LON-PTY may only be a rumor..



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10402 times:

All depends if there is enough time in the schedule for the LGW B777 fleet to accommodate this add on.

User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10075 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 2):
It's known that Panama Tourist Authorities had met BA officials

And it did not go well.


Ain't going to happen in the foreseeable future unless PTY is willing to write a very large check, and especially via SJU. If it were to ever happen as a tag ..look for it to happen via somewhere like KIN or maybe even a currently unserved colony like BZE that could help fill the cargo hold with stuff from the motherland



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10049 times:
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I have to say it seems very unlikely to me , BA barely fly to Latin America these days , IIRC only to MEX , GRU , GIG , EZE . PTY seems an unlikely addition to that group , and , in any case , doesn't BA's merger partner already service PTY direct from MAD ... what would a tag flight with their own metal offer BA that IB doesn't already provide ... the only thing I can see a tag offering is higher operating costs , hardly a plus .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineRTFM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9868 times:

Quoting ualcsr (Thread starter):
BA is looking into PTY, perhaps as an extension to LHR-SJU.

SJU isn't going to be operated from LHR - it will be from LGW as an extension to LGW-ANU.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9714 times:

Well when it comes to London-PTY flights, best if CM talks to VS not to BA.


I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9679 times:

I've flown the IB PTY-MIA (MD80?) feeder into MIA-MAD. Would BA be allowed to do something like that?

I think PTY is a great destination. It's a booming economy, anchored as a regional banking center and the Canal. It is also a fast growing tourist destination and a great hub for Central America, along with Venezuela and Ecuador. I think a PTY-LHR nonstop makes a lot of sense for a narrowbody with legs.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9633 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Would BA be allowed to do something like that?

Yes, but the new customs rules in the US have made it a rather unattractive place to connect. Honestly, I have to wonder whether that might be part of the rationale behind considering this since you'd think it would be just as easy routing PTY traffic via MIA with American.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
I've flown the IB PTY-MIA (MD80?) feeder into MIA-MAD. Would BA be allowed to do something like that?

Thanks to Panama-USA and Panama-UK bilaterals, BA could be allowed to do that. Due to AA relation with both AA and IB, most likely BA won't like to do that. Not to mention all passengers flying between LON and PTY via MIA must have valid US visas, if needed.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
I think a PTY-LHR nonstop makes a lot of sense for a narrowbody with legs.

LON-PTY is far off from the B757 max-range. If CM was interested in the B737-700ER, then PTY-LON may be a quite interesting niche route for CM, surely CM's PTY hub would have no problems filling daily a 28C + 48Y passenger configuration B737-700ER.

[Edited 2010-11-25 11:32:08]


I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9394 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I have to wonder whether that might be part of the rationale behind considering this since you'd think it would be just as easy routing PTY traffic via MIA with American.

Indeed. The current oneworld on-line timetable lists PTY-MIA (AA2192) and MIA-LHR (BA208) with just 1.5 hrs for the transfer at MIA and an elapsed time of a little more than 13 hrs. Flying westbound the connections are not so good with the best giving an elapsed time of just over 16hrs (AA057 and AA959).

With the likely low load factor, particularly with no local PTY-SJU traffic, the argument for extending the BA SJU flight to PTY, looks very negative to me.

Perhaps when AA and BA adjust their schedules so that, for example, AA056 and BA208 do not depart from MIA for LHR within 10 minutes of each other, travelling between LHR and PTY through MIA will be quicker.


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9146 times:

With IB serving the route non stop (and likely to go daily in the foreseeable future) BA in PTY makes no sense unless it's with a huge subisidy and carrying holidaymakers, as said above.

As to LH serving PTY, I think that with the new BOG flight and extensive codesharing with AV-Copa, I'm not betting on that happening anytime soon. I just don't see there's enough traffic. KL serves PTY thanks in great part to Copa and if, as of today, IB which has the biggest natural O&D market to Panama from Europe cannot make it a daily flight I'm inclined to think a third non-stop from Europe would just overkill the route.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8874 times:

I presume BA will be flying pax originating from LHR and bringing them back, rather than the other way around, at least in the non-premium cabins. Business traffic would have both, given the Banking, Shipping and Logistics businesses there.

Boeing had talked about long and thin markets for the 787 - is this route a candidate?


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 7):
Well when it comes to London-PTY flights, best if CM talks to VS not to BA.

Absolutely. It could work very nicely with the A330s that VS is starting to receive from next year.
Easy onward connections to SJO, LIM, UIO, among so many others.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 822 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 13):
Boeing had talked about long and thin markets for the 787 - is this route a candidate?

As far as BA is concerned, given the slot constraints at LHR and its market position, new 787 routes are likely to be to the US and Asia (the company itself has identified a handful of new potential routes in these territories for the 787).


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8019 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 13):
Boeing had talked about long and thin markets for the 787 - is this route a candidate?

CM has stated that It's not looking to add widebody aircraft to its fleet. So no B787 for CM (at least now).
If BA gets B787 and wants to operate to PTY, PTY may be one of those destinations not worth getting LHR slots for. If it's LON-PTY O/D (leisure and business) and CM feeder traffic to/from LON, LGW could work well.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7398 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
I have to say it seems very unlikely to me , BA barely fly to Latin America these days , IIRC only to MEX , GRU , GIG , EZE .

Keyword being "these days". BA recently launched services into PUJ, (last year) and this month into CUN. Most European carriers are reinstating services into Latin America that were discontinued years ago, (i.e. FRA-BOG, CDG-LIM, AMS-EZE, etc). BA used to operate into BOG, CCS, SCL, SJO, etc. British Airways will launch new routes into Latam and reinstate services into old destinations in the near term.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4615 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7232 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
the argument for extending the BA SJU flight to PTY, looks very negative to me.

I have to agree there.
The possible BA LON-SJU-PTY is unappealing analyzing both IB PTY-MAD and KL PTY-AMS, in terms of an easier connectivity between Europe and Central America.




.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 12):
With IB serving the route non stop (and likely to go daily in the foreseeable future) BA in PTY makes no sense unless it's with a huge subsidy and carrying holidaymakers, as said above.

Iberia recently split IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD into IB MAD-GUA-SAL-MAD and IB MAD-PTY-MAD.
I expect the current IB MAD-PTY-MAD 4x weekly becoming daily, prior to any attempt of BA in Panama City.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
Keyword being "these days". BA recently launched services into PUJ, (last year) and this month into CUN. Most European carriers are reinstating services into Latin America that were discontinued years ago, (i.e. FRA-BOG, CDG-LIM, AMS-EZE, etc). BA used to operate into BOG, CCS, SCL, SJO, etc. British Airways will launch new routes into Latam and reinstate services into old destinations in the near term.

Definitely. And the reason can be found here:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Yes, but the new customs rules in the US have made it a rather unattractive place to connect.

As South American economies have strengthened, travel to/from South America has been on the rise. The ever-increasing hassles associated with a transit in the US have led to a disproportiontely strong growth in demand for direct services to South America in recent years.

One good example is LH's FRA-GRU flight. It is usually very full, and it is ridiculously difficult to buy seats in First and Business class in the last week before the flight. Economy is a bit easier, but usually also has healthy loads.

As for LON-PTY, I just don't see it happening. Not yet. And if it happens, it will be from Gatwick. If it happens as a tag, I would expect the flight to go via PUJ or KIN, not a US airport. In fact, LGW-PUJ-PTY is only 10 miles longer than LGW-PTY direct, though SJU does not add much distance either:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lgw-pty...in-pty%2C+lgw-sju-pty&MS=wls&DU=mi



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineplanesavvy From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5932 times:

With the merger to IB, BA does "technically fly" to PTY via "its" MAD hub. Willie Walsh has stated a few times that they will try to grow the MAD hub due to slot restrictions at LHR.

User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5820 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 12):
As to LH serving PTY, I think that with the new BOG flight and extensive codesharing with AV-Copa, I'm not betting on that happening anytime soon. I just don't see there's enough traffic.

I agree, especially since PTY already has direct service to Frankfurt on Condor. They fly there several times a week as a tag on some of their flights to PUJ and SDQ.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4615 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

I rather expect BA LON-PTY as non-stop services, if it may happen later.
The possible tag-on BA LON-PUJ-PTY or BA LON-SJU-PTY is unappealing as posted in reply 18.
We also have to consider that both PUJ-PTY and SJU-PTY are served almost 2x daily by Copa Airlines: CM PTY-PUJ 11x weekly and CM PTY-SJU 14x weekly.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4973 times:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 22):
I rather expect BA LON-PTY as non-stop services, if it may happen later.

It looks like it'll have to be the British Holiday operators who may have to get BA to fly a weekly "scheduled charter" from LGW on their behalf. Of course a Non-stop would be best.
IMHO, even with a once per week LGW flight, BA shouldn't have to worry about an empty F/C cabin. For those travelling between LON and PTY on business, having that LON non-stop would be an attractive option, not to fly via AA/BA via MIA or DFW.
BA does serve some long-haul destinations once per week, but those are high-yield - not lesiure - and the fares pay for the expenses of keeping an aircraft and its crew the minimum possible rest time at an airport.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 23):
IMHO, even with a once per week LGW flight, BA shouldn't have to worry about an empty F/C cabin. For those travelling between LON and PTY on business, having that LON non-stop would be an attractive option, not to fly via AA/BA via MIA or DFW.

The "Beach Fleet" of 777s based at LGW does not have a First cabin, only Business, Premium Economy and Economy.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
25 yellowtail : BA "looks into" countless routes each year...part of normal proceedures..jsut like any other airline.... "looking into" is a long way from interested
26 LHRFlyer : There are some routes at LGW that are operated with 4 class 777s, but the majority are 3 class.
27 LJ : Though CM is the reason why KL expanded so much, the main reason why KL started PTY was O&D. Not only the ties between the two harbours are gener
28 charliecossie : Er, very long legs, eh?
29 Viscount724 : PrivatAir's 737-700-based BBJ1 with several extra fuel tanks operates KLM's all-business class (44 seats) AMS-IAH route which is only 211 nm shorter
30 Post contains images comorin : I was probably thinking of a 707...sorry , wrong century! The original 'long and thin' a/c. If VS can fly to St Lucia,I'm sure BA can fill seats on i
31 cedarjet : Agreed that Panama is an attractive destination. Haven't seen a mention but BA flew to Panama City until the 80s, with 747 service in the final years.
32 kiwimex : And deplane for a mandatory radiation dose and/or grope.
33 2travel2know2 : Don't remember that. In the last days of BA flights to PTY, BA was flying twice weekly L1011 via KIN or NAS. Went down from thrice weekly B707 (earli
34 Post contains images yellowtail : Who probably fly via AMS considering you can throw a stone from BRU to AMS
35 SJOtoLIR : Didn't the VC-10 operate at PTY during the BOAC era instead? Bermuda was likely linked to Panama City in the past on BA. I'm not clear in what period
36 planesarecool : What's St Lucia got to do with anything? VS and BA fly to UVF as it is a popular tourist destination among the British people. In fact BA will be inc
37 2travel2know2 : Yes, the VC10 flew as BOAC. The LHR-PTY route went like LHR-BDA-KIN-PTY and LHR-NAS-KIN-PTY other days. It was possible the flights were even routed
38 Post contains images flyingalex : What the heck is "higgler traffic"?
39 VV701 : I have no idea. So i googled "higgler" and Google replied "•A person who trades in dairy, poultry, and small game animals; A person who haggles or
40 jfk777 : What does BA see in Panama, is not a beach market. IF it was for the banking sector then it would have been flying it for years. IF, and its a big if,
41 2travel2know2 : Sorry about that, it's a term used in the a.net Caribbean topics. Higglers are merchant, male or female, who travel several times per year between th
42 flyingalex : Very interesting. Thanks for that!
43 A388 : That is a surprise, I can't see it happening unless there's enough traffic/cargo to warrant those flights. Is there an actual relation between the U.K
44 SJOtoLIR : Panama is placed in Central America.
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