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Al Baker: 787 'a Failure'  
User currently offlineUpperDeck From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2010, 76 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40356 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11842597

Pretty damning stuff. Hard to suggest he might be positioning for further discounts, after all why would he want his airline to purchase a product he's so openly discredited?

[Edited 2010-11-25 14:28:53]

[Edited 2010-11-25 14:29:46]

174 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6998 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40328 times:

So will he - as previously threatened - cancel if there's another delay?

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40256 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 1):
So will he - as previously threatened - cancel if there's another delay?


That is the multi-million Dollar question of course. He has been firm with comments in the past, so who knows what he and the other members of the board of directors might decide when the again revised schedule on the B787 development and deliveries is published.

It is also interesting that they now want to increase the number of ordered A380's as well. The 5 they have on order right now are a low number compared to some other airlines, especially EK of course.  


User currently offlineUpperDeck From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2010, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40261 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
So will he - as previously threatened - cancel if there's another delay?

To be honest, there are a lot of CEOs out there saying this and that about the 787 and it's hard to distinguish posturing from genuinely contemplating cancellation. Time will tell, but it's far from good news.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40215 times:

I think the title of the BBC article is very misleading; he is not saying the 787 is a failure, but rather that Boeing has failed in its efforts to produce a quality product. It's a bit of twisting - unprofessional, I would say - on the BBC's part. However, I'm sure that Boeing is fully aware of AAB's feelings about the continuing 787 delays - and those of other carriers.

User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 40042 times:

I think that the 787 has had its share of teething problems, but Boeing is catching the problems ahead of delivery time. It's better to catch these things now rather than after delivery. Boeing doesn't want another DC-10 fiasco on their hands.

Once the 787 is delivered and does what it is supposed to, the orders will come.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39834 times:
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He's been a 787 customer for some time, so I expect he won't cancel.

He's told Airbus if they are late on the A350 (of which QR will receive the first frames) there would be hell to pay, but even as Airbus announces they're running out of time to meet EIS, he's been quiet and even should Airbus miss EIS, I don't expect he will cancel.

After all, he's said he may order more A380s and he's been waiting years for them...


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39734 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 1):
So will he - as previously threatened - cancel if there's another delay?

I seriously doubt it.   

Unles they don't really need the planes, what else will QR do? They could order more A330s and 777s and probably get them in close to the same time scale. But, they'll then have a large fleet of 'old generation' planes until their A350s start arriving.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39739 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
I think the title of the BBC article is very misleading; he is not saying the 787 is a failure, but rather that Boeing has failed in its efforts to produce a quality product. It's a bit of twisting - unprofessional, I would say - on the BBC's part. However, I'm sure that Boeing is fully aware of AAB's feelings about the continuing 787 delays - and those of other carriers.

Well - yes. If Al Barker believes that Boeing has failed to produce a quality product (and that is Al Bakers opinion acording to the BBC and not mine) I think BBC can be justified in saying that the 787 is a failiour according to Al Baker. At least Boeing has failed in relation to what they aimed at doing - provided of cause that the 787 was supposed to be a quality product. I can't see any twisting here I am affraid.


User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39662 times:

Lol, that was pretty harsh. Can't wait to hear what he says about the A350 in a couple years.  scared 

[Edited 2010-11-25 15:27:53]


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User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39278 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 11):
Lol, that was pretty harsh. Can't wait to hear what he says about the A350 in a couple years.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 12):
So I guess the A380 would, by your logic, be a dismal failure too?

Why is he upset? The 787 will be a superb aeroplane, but the reality at present is that it is an Airlines nightmare!! No if's, and's and but's. It is also a nightmare for Boeing. No matter how much you try to move the focus away from the debacle, which is the 787 program, the facts are the facts.

I think we would all be upset if we were trying to run a business, but did not have any tools to do the job. Think about it in reality, then tell me you would not be as upset as this guy.

This is not a tit for tat A v B topic, it is Customer v B.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 39033 times:

This is the quote from him I've seen:
"I was really taken aback by the (787) program. I never expected a program could be delayed so much with a company like Boeing, which has pride in its quality. They have very clearly failed," he told a news conference."

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems he is saying Boeing has failed, not that the 787 is a failure. It may be a fairly subtle difference, but the implications are significant. Rather than his confidence in the plane being lost, he's lost his confidence with the company.


User currently offlinedz09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 492 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 38833 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 7):
Quoting UpperDeck (Thread starter):
why would he want his airline to purchase a product he's so openly discredited?

He ordered it before the 787 probelms. Really, the 787 is years overdue--NOT EXACTLY A SUCCESS!




This is all part of a new product development process. What do you want? a plane that's going to fall off the sky because they rushed to put it into service. The only thing i blame boeing for is using so many foreign contractors for this program.

I'm really interested to hear about any kind of success story coming out of qatar???


User currently offlineflywrite From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 38674 times:
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Mr Baker's not going to make many friends in the world of manufacturers with these comments! Perhaps he's positioning himself as the Michael O'Leary of the Middle East.

The article strangely seems to suggest that Qatar are considering ordering more A380s as a result of the 787 delays. But they're hardly in the same category!

Given the amount of orders the 787 has had, I'd say Boeing have been on the ball with finding the right aircraft for the market's needs. It's just regrettable that these (very public) delays have been happening. Still, the A380 also got a lot of flack for its delays, and had a few unhappy CEO's.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 38585 times:

Quoting dz09 (Reply 15):
What do you want? a plane that's going to fall off the sky because they rushed to put it into service. The only thing i blame boeing for is using so many foreign contractors for this program.

Just a moment - who decided to design then launch the 7E7 with a very compressed schedule? Who forgot to order fasteners on time? Agreed, foreign contractors also let the project down - parts shipped unfinished, bad quality etc


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 38258 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 14):
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems he is saying Boeing has failed, not that the 787 is a failure. It may be a fairly subtle difference, but the implications are significant. Rather than his confidence in the plane being lost, he's lost his confidence with the company.

   The aeroplane will be good.

Quoting dz09 (Reply 15):
This is all part of a new product development process. What do you want? a plane that's going to fall off the sky because they rushed to put it into service. The only thing i blame boeing for is using so many foreign contractors for this program.
Quoting dz09 (Reply 15):
I'm really interested to hear about any kind of success story coming out of qatar???

Think about the reality of Qatar's situation. They planned their future based on receiving the 787. How many times now have Boeing pulled the rug from under their feet? Think about what this does to Qatar. Now ask yourself, how many other CEO's are going to be as angry as this guy? I could safetly say 100% of all 787 customers CEO's who will be affected by another delay are going to be just as bad. At least with this guy you know what he is thinking.
Qatar success is based on the 787, so your comment on their success is rather strange.

Quoting flywrite (Reply 16):
Mr Baker's not going to make many friends in the world of manufacturers with these comments! Perhaps he's positioning himself as the Michael O'Leary of the Middle East.

O' Leary cries about the little things. Mr. Baker is trying to run an airline but cannot get hold of what an airline needs to function... aeroplanes!!

Quoting flywrite (Reply 16):
Given the amount of orders the 787 has had, I'd say Boeing have been on the ball with finding the right aircraft for the market's needs. It's just regrettable that these (very public) delays have been happening. Still, the A380 also got a lot of flack for its delays, and had a few unhappy CEO's.

Public or not, the reality is that for airlines it is a huge loss!! Fleet planning, route structure, maintenance savings etc etc. The 787 like the 380 will be a great success, but at present it is a customers nightmare!!


At some point the 787 program, like the 380, will go from negative to positive. But what we cannot say at present is that it is in a good situation delivery wise.


User currently offlinektachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 38158 times:

Quoting art (Reply 16):
Just a moment - who decided to design then launch the 7E7 with a very compressed schedule? Who forgot to order fasteners on time? Agreed, foreign contractors also let the project down - parts shipped unfinished, bad quality etc

Exactly, when anyone heard the schedules, we could tell that it was too ambitious. The ridiculous part is that Boeing set a delivery date for 2008 which is almost 3 years ago. If they had announced that the B787 was going to be flying before the 2012 London Olympics or the 2016 Rio De Janeiro olympics, there would have been no problem. The problem is that they announced it was going to be flying for the Beijing 2008 olympics.

Boeing should pay a 50% fee to all customers for letting them down so much and letting their business plans be ruined.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 37914 times:

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 18):
business plans be ruined.

At last!! Well said.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6998 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 37879 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
He's been a 787 customer for some time, so I expect he won't cancel.

Not sure I agree with that logic. That he's already waited so long might be the reason he decides that enough's enough.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
After all, he's said he may order more A380s and he's been waiting years for them...

Two (2) planes scheduled to be delivered in 2009 and subsequently delayed till 2012 (+3 more) is not really in the same league as the 787 delays QR have been facing. Moreover, the A380 is proven and earning good money. That can't be said - yet - of the 787.

http://www.qatarairways.com/global/e...rchive/aboutus_news_18jan05_1.html

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
what else will QR do? They could order more A330s and 777s

Yes.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
But, they'll then have a large fleet of 'old generation' planes until their A350s start arriving.

'Old' is pretty relative. The A330 keeps being rejuvenated (see yesterday's news about the A330-300) and there's widespread speculation that the 777 will be seriously refreshed. Thirty A330-300s delivered from, say, late 2012 is probably a safer bet than thirty 787s that are now unlikely to appear any sooner.

Quoting dz09 (Reply 14):
I'm really interested to hear about any kind of success story coming out of qatar???

I'm not sure what your point is but I believe that Qatar Airways has been modestly successful.  


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31394 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37665 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Not sure I agree with that logic. That he's already waited so long might be the reason he decides that enough's enough.

I expect Boeing would be happy to change the order to more 77Ls and 77Ws.

Might be the reason why they are looking at a large increase in 777 production...


User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37416 times:

Boeing presently has enough on its plate to have piling on at this stage, based on the money they have already lost, and will continue to loose due to delayed penalities they need to lessen the load. Call it a crazy suggestion but they should look at cancelling a few orders on their own, if they were to approach this client with a cancellation request what's the upside and the downside current and future.
Current they eliminate a out-spoken client.
Write off some additional losses immediately
Allow a rearranging of their delivery schedule
Let current and potential customers know that they are serious about the product and do not take kindly to the beat of every drummer who wants to vent in public, at this stage it is about the a/c and not profit.

The 787 may or may not be an excellent a/c, right now Boening needs its time and space to settle their belief in the a/c. They are years late, are paying compensation, so far we have not seen or heard anyone claim that they are ducking compensation, the worst thing they need right now is public discourse and its effect on shareholders whose knock off effect may be to rush the a/c into service to preserve stock value.

A house cleaning is in order no question about that, I do not understand why a massive broom did not fall previously, maybe they think the good portion of those who "screwed" up is better than someone new to the program, history has shown that's not always a given.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37425 times:

You know, I seem to remember a lot of things said about the A380's teething problems and delay of EIS...but nothing along the scale I have seen here. This plane has been built on what amounts to a complete overhaul in technology and a complete shift from a lot of the paradigms that Boeing used for all their previous models. And folks are wondering WHY this thing is taking so long?

User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37177 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Not sure I agree with that logic. That he's already waited so long might be the reason he decides that enough's enough.

Well, he can't just cancel important planes in the fleet because its delayed. The alternatives a to few to afford that luxury.
The 787 will be too important part of their fleet to just cancel due to big unhappiness.
787 is also a hedge against possible delays for Airbus 350.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
I expect Boeing would be happy to change the order to more 77Ls and 77Ws.

True, but that's not what the airlines want.
The promised improvement for 787 over 777 is to big to substitue in most cases.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlinethediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37322 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 23):
And folks are wondering WHY this thing is taking so long?

Folks are still wondering why Boeing said it was going to happen so quickly.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 23):
This plane has been built on what amounts to a complete overhaul in technology

And the common criticism of boeing is that they sought to overhaul technology AND overhaul construction techniques and overhaul supply chain at the same time to ensure a great value airliner could be developed.

I'd love to see the project IRR forecasts today, as serious delays and mega serious cost over-runs in Years 1to 5 kill a projects return.


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 37008 times:

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 8):
I wish he would just cancel the order so that we dont have to hear his rash comments. He sounds just as pathetic as Leahey at Airbus.

I wish Boeing would tell him they don't want his business and give his slots to someone else.


25 AWACSooner : As much as Airbus has recently been jumping on customers Boeing has rejected (B6 and F9 come to mind), I don't think Boeing will show ANYONE the door
26 757luver : My thoughts exactly, people complain now but just imagine if this worked out the way things did when the DC-10 was first born. Then it would be a who
27 comorin : If I were a customer I'd be mad as hell if my supplier was three years late. He is within his rights to complain - his business plans have been put o
28 Stitch : Boeing is not going to tell QR to take a long walk off a short pier. But penalties and compensation are contractually limited and once those limits ar
29 bizmark03 : According to me the title of the article is misleading. What Al Baker is saying that Boeing has failed on its commitments and i do not think he's comp
30 Post contains images Stitch : It's easy to look back on the program and say that Boeing should have given it 8 years instead of 4, but if Boeing had launched the 7E7 in 2004 and s
31 Post contains images UAEflyer : Albaker was trying to pull atention like Tim Clark , he wasn't as polite as Mr. Clark Now seriously, he should look at the discounts rather than showi
32 flyguy89 : Ditto. I think it's testament to the quality aircraft Boeing DOES want to produce. The same thing with Airbus and the A380. I'm sure it's understanda
33 bizmark03 : If my boss gave me a project and asked me how long it would take and I said 1 month and then even after 3 months I'd tell my boss that I'm working to
34 LTC8K6 : Oh I know it isn't realistic, but I'd still love to see it happen, and see the look on a few faces. "A failure eh? Well, we certainly don't want you
35 Post contains links mariner : Not quite. JetBlue did actually approach Boeing first and got a similar response as Frontier would later, except Boeing told Frontier what they would
36 rikkus67 : I would rather wait longer to have a plane that is 100% ready to fly, rather than something that will need badages for years to come. This is the poi
37 JoeCanuck : That is exactly correct. Any real negotiations and complaints are going on behind doors. This is advertising for Qatar. They haven't been in the news
38 mariner : I'm sure every airline would. I'm sure that is at least partly why the airlines have been so understanding - and forgiving - of the situation. At the
39 rottenray : Fundamentally wrong, or at least I hope. If your boss gave you a project which changed the way you normally work, changed the materials you work with
40 mariner : Lufthansa seems happy with the A340. Then again, Lufthansa has ordered the 748i. mariner
41 Post contains images astuteman : To me, most people's comments seem to express no surprise whatsoever that this "thing" is taking so long. Most seem to be surprised by something else
42 bizmark03 : That's exactly the point, Boeing knew what they were going to do and miscalculated/under estimated the time frame. They chose to take a completely ne
43 Post contains images mayor : Will it be flying by then or are they still deciding on window shape? Seriously, tho.......what does he expect to happen coming out of the flight tes
44 Post contains images Animeman77W : Now now, if they did that, they would look as unprofessional as Al Baker is sounding now
45 Navigator : I do not see what is so surprising with his comment. He is exactly on the point. Anyone who has followed the 787 story knows it is a failure by all m
46 Slinky09 : Not sure if that's the case ... but they certainly are a duopoly. Absolutely, for some airlines it means cost, less profit, no expansion, and all sor
47 flyingAY : I have a little hard time understanding what you're trying to stay. Maybe Boeing would not have so many orders, but would Boeing had profited more if
48 AirbusA6 : But isn't that the same way IT companies sell vaporware, promising something they can't deliver? If China promisd to deliver a 787 type plane within
49 parapente : I love it,first the is a disection of what was said so that the 787 programme was not criticised - but only Boeing.By the end it was not even that - j
50 Garpd : Out of interest, which airlines cancelled firm orders for the 787 and ordered A330s? Also, where is the original thread discussing this? Started by K
51 farzan : Unfortunately, that was crossing my mind as well. Think about it. If the present problems would turn out to an additional loooong delay, Boeing would
52 Post contains images standby87 : If you've ever had dealings with Qatar and Al-Baker, you won't be surprised at this BBC Article. A mixture of Branson and O'Leary would be an unfair d
53 SchorschNG : Calling the B787 program a failure so far isn't too far apart from common sense. The ever increasing delays and the apparent lack of control at Boeing
54 ltbewr : As many have noted, the series of delays in the 787 puts the airlines in a substantual bind. They may have to extend price unfavorable leases, continu
55 scbriml : What a lot of people seem to be missing here is that airlines like QR have built their business plans on what they were told by Boeing when they order
56 Garpd : No, it's not too far apart from common sense. It is so far apart it's not worth considering. I don’t think anyone can say the 787 Program is a fail
57 SchorschNG : The first 200 to 300 aircraft will probably end up with over 4 years on average, simply given by the late EIS and the slow ramp-up. The entire B787 p
58 mbj2000 : With all respect, I think you're completely wrong. Is the 787 Program a failure: YES! It's 3 years late, there's absolutely no discussion about that,
59 ACABlaker : LOL. I think BBC is out in left field or Al Baker is, lets take a very brief view of the article. - AL Baker "Boeing 787 suffering failures", agreed a
60 Garpd : That's your opinion of course.[Edited 2010-11-26 06:40:37]
61 Chiad : I am going to give it a shot here and try to put this in a context that everyone in this forum can relate to. Imagine that in 2004 you make a deal wit
62 thediplomat : But is the aircraft meeting CASM expectations - which is the million dollar question for airlines. To date, the 787 programme is an unmitigated finan
63 Garpd : That analogy just doesn't work.[Edited 2010-11-26 07:16:30]
64 delimit : Um...wouldn't a criticism of Boeing be more troubling than a criticism of the 787? If it's just the plane, they skip it and move on to other products
65 Post contains images ojas : Completely agree with you. I had read posts how people virtually wrote off Airbus! Even when Air India asked Boeing for compensation there were Boein
66 Stitch : Indeed. So looks like Boeing and Airbus need at least 8 years to launch a new aircraft program and bring it into service (the A380 was close to that,
67 comorin : Wow. Are you saying that people from the Middle East should be seen and not be heard? As for Qatar, it's one of the 5 top airlines in the world, so I
68 delimit : Well, among other things, the airlines obviously have a strong preference for having two planes in each segment. Competition between Boeing and Airbu
69 Navigator : Even if he didn´t call the 787 a failure the 787-programme has certainly been a failure so far. Once Boeing was famous for designing and building pl
70 rolfen : Even if the 787 program is a "debacle" it might still become a gold mine for future new aircraft by Boeing. Boeing needed to do something innovative a
71 ckfred : Has Boeing failed in terms of getting a new model certified and delivered to customers? Yes. There were never delays like this with any of the earlier
72 ojas : But QR hasn't ordered any of them no? So doesn't make much of a difference to either parties. They met negotiated, can't work up things .... and I wo
73 airproxx : Actually a strange and rude way to get a discount. Maybe should someone suggest to this highly aviation "specialist" to turn to another supplier... W
74 Post contains images lightsaber : Normally, I would agree. But since Al Baker likes to negotiate in the press... I have trouble taking him as seriously as EK's Smith. Sorry to disagre
75 AirMale : Al Baker is calling the B787 a failure?? Well I am sure he knows what that feels like. He is also the CEO of Doha International Airport and he has bee
76 Post contains images Stitch : I am sure they do and depending on how much money that is, it can be a powerful incentive to stay with a plane, regardless of how you feel about it -
77 Navigator : Well now everyone highly doubted that what has happened to the 787 programme would happen but somehow it happened. The reputation Boeing has had befo
78 ojas : I'm sorry but what relevance does it have here? And is there any obligation for QR to post a profit? And how do you know they are in profit or not gi
79 mariner : So we have to check the profit and loss sheets of any customer when they are speaking about a vendor? I don't understand why this British Stiff Upper
80 AirNZ : Sorry, but what's the difference? If a quality product has not been produced (for whatever reason) then surely, by definition that product must be a
81 delimit : At the same news conference Al-Baker said: ""People have to change their perception of Arab carriers. We have to make money. Our governments have mad
82 Revelation : From my point of view, it's not too far off the mark. The analogy is a bit off when it implies most airlines have sold off their planes and are now u
83 Navigator : The difference is that he has not sold the airport by contract to anyone which Boeing has done with the 787 so I fail to see any similarity here...
84 par13del : What works for us now is that we knowmost of the details of the problems encountered so far, once we take the technical issues out of the way, the bu
85 abba : Indeed they did. At the time they introduced the 787 Boeing had just given up on their "supersonic red herring" (or whetever they called it). The 747
86 Navigator : They sold the 787 it seems without talking to their own engineers... They sold a product that simply had not advanced enough on the drawing board. I
87 Post contains images Stitch : Ah, but that was one of the points of the 787. A significant portion of the engineering would be done by sub-scontractors and suppliers.
88 JoeCanuck : Not true. The current Doha airport is a huge pain to transit through. It is way too small and the place is like a crowded bus stop when more than one
89 ltbewr : In the USA, or even elsewhere, one would sue the contractor in court or if the contract required, go into arbitration/mediation for additional living
90 Post contains images aerokiwi : I wasn't aware that airlines had flown the 787 in regular passenger service or that you yourself had experienced it to such an extent so as to label
91 ojas : Exactly, till it is validated nothing can be deemed as a fact. I specifically mentioned for O-D passengers for whom the airport is supposedly has bee
92 Post contains links mariner : Air New Zealand being one of them, as here: New Zealand Aviation Thread #87 (by 777ER Nov 11 2010 in Civil Aviation) "I saw Norm Thompson (Deputy CEO
93 JoeCanuck : I have O&D'd in Doha about a dozen times and the airport is barely adequate for that either. All areas are very crowded with even one plane landi
94 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Most likely the case. Hence the wink after the 748I jest. How do I know? Well... this is an Al Baker thread. In 2007, he promised a profit by 2010: h
95 ojas : Well since none of you believe his words, how did you believe this? The reason why I'm dragging this is that of all the user's ont his forum, I reall
96 mariner : It seems to me that in all those cases, he has simply been speaking his mind. The A346 has not been the most popular aircraft ever built, the 777 is
97 328JET : For me it really sounds like a coming 787-cancellation from QR with probably taking more B77W and some B77L instead of. Probably the new 238-tons vers
98 col : Al Baker says something bad about the 787 and wow do people take it personally. GIVE IT UP. Look at who Boeing is screwing up with these delays, EVERY
99 Post contains images cloudyapple : If your boss gave you 1 month then fine but it was you who gave him the estimate. Now who's fault is that? Are you saying they may have lied to gain
100 JoeCanuck : Whoa...lighten up a tad. It's a thread about Al Baker and Qatar airlines so it really shouldn't come as too much of a shock if people end up talking
101 AirNZ : But that's it really....did they actually believe it or, as can be taken from your comment, it was a ruse? Let's be honest, at roll out they were ins
102 SchorschNG : Honestly, in August 2007 Boeing announced the first delay. I remember the big discussion as the Airbus fanboys (I'm probably one of them) came out of
103 thediplomat : Is it true or an urban myth that they used rivets from Home Depot to get the aircraft rolled out? I ask again - is this aircraft meeting stated CASM
104 Post contains images lightsaber : If QR is financing planes from Boeing, then they would need to open up the financial documents. e.g., I have a friend who does Credit Swiss Audits on
105 ojas : Yeah that's fine that they have to open up their financial documents to Boeing. But my question is does it matter to Boeing whether QR is in a profit
106 Bennett123 : Something which crosses my mind is this. How difficult is it to extend an aircrafts lifespan 4 years beyond expectations, sepecially when the goalpost
107 SchorschNG : Most airlines that purchase new aircraft do not fly old aircraft directly into the desert. So they can extent their life time, though it might someti
108 RayChuang : I think Al Baker does not understand that the 787 represents a HUGE change in techology: mostly composite structures, bleedless engines, and so on. As
109 Post contains images EPA001 : I think he understands completely what he signed for when buying the B787. What he does not understand, and justifiably so imho, why Boeing can not g
110 thediplomat : He understands the contract that he signed: An aircraft that can fly so far with so much payload using so much fuel, delivered on a certain date. The
111 Post contains images Stitch : Yes, I am sure Boeing knew it would take 8-10 years to bring the 787 to market because they're omniscient and knew that by saying they could do it in
112 Post contains images lightsaber : True. Which makes me wonder what is behind the curtain. As you and I agree on, QR only needs to prove to Boeing whatever they need to for meeting con
113 mariner : Why? If the owners of the airline have decided that they want a show piece - a national airline to keep their place on the map - its their money, the
114 Post contains images EPA001 : Very true. Making contingency plans for whatever reason (see the QF situation with their RR engine problems on the A380 ) is part of the responsibili
115 ojas : Again I just cannot comprehend, what is he distracting the public from? If you're saying distracting the public from QR's financial performance, the
116 AirNZ : Hey, I'm not disagreeing with what you said in your replied post but......you are the one who clearly implied there was a 'method' behind the 5 year
117 bmacleod : Quite a few predicted in the late 1960s that the 747 would fail. At least the 787 has already been built and flown unlike the A350 so-called "787 kill
118 Post contains images EPA001 : A strange post imho You would expect the B787 to have flown if it is already almost 3 years late on the first customer delivery. The A350-XWB is much
119 Stitch : Well for the record, I was in no way implying, suggesting, or claiming that Boeing knew they were never going to make the 2008 EIS when they launched
120 BMI727 : It very nearly did, and would have possibly taken Boeing with it. Of course believing you can make it and knowing you can make it are two different t
121 Stitch : I would think that in the litigeous society we have in the USA, if there was proof Boeing knew in 2004 that they could not deliver in 2008, there wou
122 Schweigend : All the above, so very true. Al Bakr may be making noise now, but think of the many carriers hurt by Boeing's gaffe -- or is that word too mild, have
123 thediplomat : The original NH flights were short haul aircraft swaps, so can be easily swapped back. The CO flights are new long and thin (perfect for the 787), an
124 Chiad : ??? Who called the A350 a 787 killer? I for my own part agrees with you that the B787 will be a success, but not a quite few years. I don't have anyt
125 Navigator : Well now the production and part of designing would be outsourced if that is what you mean. It didn´t work. But the 787 is a Boeing design and desig
126 F9Animal : Sadly, you may be on to something here. The executives in Chicago have been royally screwing up. They have thrown so much of the blame game around on
127 328JET : No idea way, but it sounds like the last warning to Boeing from Al Baker. It could result in canceling all outstanding orders. Especially these high e
128 Navigator : Yes but with unparallelled technical problems compared to other modern planes. And the end delivered product, date and quality is what counts anyway.
129 Revelation : IMHO you are really poorly informed. In particular the 747's engines were all-new, Pratt's first turbofan ever. From what I read, they had a hard tim
130 Navigator : With 747 they had an engine issue not a major design issue with the plane like now with the 787. There is no way you can talk me out of the opinion t
131 RayChuang : If I remember correctly, Pratt & Whitney didn't really solve the JT9D problems until the middle of 1971. That's why Boeing got the GE CF6-50 and
132 delimit : He's not trying to. He's telling you the 787 is hardly the first aircraft for which this has been the case, and then provided you with an example. Ra
133 thediplomat : This 'major design issue', as far as I can see it, is still an anet myth.[Edited 2010-11-28 07:54:31]
134 art : I recall querying the program schedule years ago and being advised by one of the cognoscenti (a) that Boeing needed to promise an early in-service da
135 par13del : I am willing to grant that this is exactly what the Boeing management thought up and decided to do for the 7e7 program, with the added incentive of "
136 Post contains images Navigator : I understand that too, I´m just setting the problems with the 787 in relation with other such projects and by any measure in modern times the 787 is
137 wingman : By "any"measure it's worse? I'll agree with everyone that says this is a monumental failure of an aircraft launch, no doubt. But when you say "any mea
138 Navigator : I agree with you that next to or second to the 787 we can look at the wiring problems with the A380 and the related delays. Other than that the 787 i
139 mariner : Why just his? It applies to a number of airlines because they are left with no choice. For example, what - exactly - does Air New Zealand do? They co
140 Post contains images astuteman : I'd suggest excluding the A400M is sensible. Military procurement is never a competent process, even at its best, and the contractor is usually tied
141 ikramerica : No matter how the words are dissected or parsed, I think Al Baker has a point: so far, the 787 program has been a failure. Boeing has failed to delive
142 mariner : To some extent I believe they have, but it is tough when certain critical aspects of the strategy are designed around the capabilities of the 787. ma
143 Stitch : As a 787-9 customer, the A330 wasn't really an option for NZ I would think - the A330-200 is too small and the A330-300 is significantly short-ranged
144 Post contains links Revelation : Not really correct. The best summary I've read comes from http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-electrical-redesign-b.html So it wasn't a to
145 mariner : I don't think it is either. That wasn't the point. The point is simply that they don't have a lot of options, other than to wait. And wait. And wait.
146 ikramerica : It costs less to buy, fly and maintain a 787-9?
147 mariner : Then why go to the 787-9? I don't know. I don't know what deal Air NZ got on their 787 order (I assume it was a good discount) or what deal they may
148 Post contains images lightsaber : Ch 11 if different than government subsidies. It puts the lenders technically in charge of the corporation in a bankruptcy stiffing the owners. There
149 mariner : The effect is the same. Enough stones at been thrown at Mr. Clark when he speaks his mind. And sometimes we need people to make noise. Should we glos
150 Post contains images Schweigend : What a wonderfully successful design and launch! The book, Twenty-First-Century Jet: The Making and Marketing of the Boeing 777 by Karl Sabbagh, give
151 BMI727 : The Sonic Cruiser didn't fall through, the customers didn't want it. Rather than fly faster for the same cost, they'd rather fly the same speed for l
152 Asiaflyer : To me it sounds like QR is up for another round of compensation negotiation with Boeing. IIRC Al Baker was a bit harsh about the 787 a year ago, but
153 Schweigend : A lot of money spent on something customers did not want, money that could have gone toward the development of existing lines. Though it can be said
154 BMI727 : I don't think that the capital outlay for the Sonic cruiser was particularly large. Probably more than other design concepts, but I can't imagine tha
155 thediplomat : We should encourage Research and Development in American Companies, and not be critical. Nothing Ventured, nothing gained.
156 lightsaber : Except for changes in ownership. Chapter 11 promotes change while government subsidies allow issues 'to be swept under the rug.' True, but not by mys
157 mariner : And shafts the previous owners and unsecured creditors. At least subsidized airlines tend to pay their bills. It also does worse. IF United had gone
158 ZKCIF : There is one more point that does not seem to spring up here: More than a half of the passengers fly only the intercontinental flight, say, AKL-LAX. T
159 Asiaflyer : Did you post in the correct thread? This is About QR and the 787.
160 Schweigend : Are you saying that NZ could pick up the slack for CO if they are unable to start their 787 IAH-AKL service? From New Zealand, the best routes to Eur
161 thediplomat : The route probably made sense with the CASM and size of the 787, but makes no sense with a 747. And also made airlines realise that investment in cur
162 AirNZ : Obviously it is only your opinion of course, as correctly stated. However, why do you feel the best routes from NZ to Europe would be via NA, or why
163 Post contains images delimit : It seems you've gotten your wish.
164 Revelation : I.e. the ones who own the failed company and the ones who lent the failed company money. On the backs of the taxpayers, who are involuntary participa
165 Post contains images Ferpe : Have read A.net with interest for quite some time, but now it is time to post. I have worked with international aircraft programs (military) since the
166 bjorn14 : I am sure the big frustration for Al Baker is that he sees other airlines (EK,ET,GF)in the 'hood getting lots of new shiny toys and he is on the outs
167 aerokiwi : And a good post indeed. Very insightful, thanks. Like most on here, I have zero experience on aircraft manufacture, so any insight into the process i
168 rheinwaldner : Good points. As I see it the A350 violates far less of these points. So there are explanations, why the 787 is heavily delayed and why other programs
169 AABB777 : Al Baker is also not able to expand the QR network as quickly as he'd like. QR currently sees a bottle neck effect in DOH. There is not enough capaci
170 Post contains links Revelation : Thanks for joining us! And if you believe an OPINION column in the Seattle Times, add to that the handover from "Boeing Classic (tm)" managers to tho
171 Post contains images Stitch : McNerney has survived as long as he has because he had no part in launching the 787 program, but his inability to get anyone (mostly McD folks) to pu
172 Revelation : I agree with both sentiments. I think customer and investor frustration will lead to McNearney being sacrificed, and I believe Bell would be an excel
173 QatarA340 : There are many posts here in this thread, and a lot of posts do not relate to QR. The following is my personal opinion based on media reports of Al-Ba
174 Stitch : With the 787 definitely delayed and the A350 likely delayed, QR could cancel their 787 order and buy more 77Ls and 77Ws to cover the A350-900 and A350
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