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US Red-Eye Expanding Out Of PHX  
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 14971 times:

I've noted that the Monday/Thursday/Friday/Sunday red-eye bank looks to be expanding. FAT and a number of West Coast markets are gaining 9pm ish outbounds to PHX that connect to what appears to be a limited number of Eastern Markets out of PHX. Is US looking to duplicate what they had in LAS, but this time in PHX? Looks as if what was more or less holiday related scheduling in the past is becoming SOP come summer. What's the story?

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 14931 times:

Quoting WhatUsaid (Thread starter):
I've noted that the Monday/Thursday/Friday/Sunday red-eye bank looks to be expanding. FAT and a number of West Coast markets are gaining 9pm ish outbounds to PHX that connect to what appears to be a limited number of Eastern Markets out of PHX. Is US looking to duplicate what they had in LAS, but this time in PHX? Looks as if what was more or less holiday related scheduling in the past is becoming SOP come summer. What's the story?

I've been wondering the same thing. BOS seems to get an additional flight at 1845 arriving 2143/2243 then leaving PHX at 2355/0055 arriving at 0736.


User currently offlinephxplanes From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 14583 times:

Long term I am not sure but during the holidays they add red eyes from Phoenix to many of their east coast destinations.

User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 16 hours ago) and read 14414 times:

When I worked the ticket counter in the late 80's and early 90's, the HP night flights were a god send for Rule240'ing passengers over to, in an effort to get them to their destinations the same day, (albeit some would arrive early early morning the next day like at 3:00am) Many would marvel that we would be sending them through LAS to get to places like Minneapolis or chicago from Salt Lake City

User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1032 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 14183 times:

This started last year during the winter holidays and was expanded to two full westbound and eastbound departure banks over Memorial Day weekend, with a few extra flights in between. They also ran this schedule for July 4th and Labor Day weekends. This December they'll be operating the "flex" schedule (as they call it) on most days between December 17th and January 3rd. Next year it appears the flex schedule will be in effect from about the end of February to the end of August on days 4/5/7.

This was the schedule last night, excluding the flights that normally operate during this period:

IAH 22:35
SAT 22:35
EWR 22:40
AUS 22:40
DFW 22:40

LAX 23:40
OAK 23:40
PDX 23:41
TUS 23:41
LAS 23:44
SEA 23:45
SFO 23:45
ONT 23:46
SAN 23:47
FAT 23:48
PSP 23:50
YUM 23:59
FLG 23:59

PIT 00:35
FLL 00:40
BWI 00:40
ATL 00:40
PHL 00:40
IND 00:45
MCO 00:45
TPA 00:45
CMH 00:50
TUS 00:50
ORD 00:50
BOS 00:55
DTW 00:55
MSP 00:55
STL 00:55
CLT 00:59



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3054 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 14073 times:

I would like US to expand to smaller markets in the East that they dropped service to, or markets that don't have PHX service at all(RDU, BDL, ALB, BUF)


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 13686 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 4):
This was the schedule last night, excluding the flights that normally operate during this period:

Great! This is awesome for PHX since service has been cut so much in the past few years by US and WN.

City of Tempe (and those who reside there) are gonna be piiiised though. All Tempe does is complain about Sky Harbor. I still can't believe Phoenix signed the 50/50 deal with them a while ago for 50% East Flow and 50% West...and Tempe still complains!



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinecrjflyer35 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 668 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 12659 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
City of Tempe (and those who reside there) are gonna be piiiised though. All Tempe does is complain about Sky Harbor. I still can't believe Phoenix signed the 50/50 deal with them a while ago for 50% East Flow and 50% West...and Tempe still complains!

What's interesting is even though Tempe residents complain, they'll still book and board flights departing Sky Harbor....I have to wonder if they'll not get on the flight if PHX is on an East flow?



Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11214 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
Phoenix signed the 50/50 deal with them a while ago for 50% East Flow and 50% West

What's that about, out of curiosity?



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3054 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10165 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
Great! This is awesome for PHX since service has been cut so much in the past few years by US and WN.

  



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10117 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 3):
When I worked the ticket counter in the late 80's and early 90's, the HP night flights were a god send for Rule240'ing passengers over to, in an effort to get them to their destinations the same day, (albeit some would arrive early early morning the next day like at 3:00am) Many would marvel that we would be sending them through LAS to get to places like Minneapolis or chicago from Salt Lake City

Those night flights through LAS were definitely a good alternative to staying at a hotel overnight. I did it once when I was attempting to fly DCA-OMA-PHX-OAK...got stuck in OMA for de-icing...missed my connection to OAK...so flew PHX-LAS-OAK...getting into OAK at 3am.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10014 times:

Quoting crjflyer35 (Reply 7):
What's interesting is even though Tempe residents complain, they'll still book and board flights departing Sky Harbor....I have to wonder if they'll not get on the flight if PHX is on an East flow?

Of course...the only other option is G4 out of IWA/AZA and unless it's a town with a population of less than 20,000, G4 probably doesn't fly there. Funny thing is they'll probably be happy to fly out in East Flow because they'll want to see their house!

Quoting Western727 (Reply 8):
What's that about, out of curiosity?

Well I'll give you a little background since I'm not sure how much you're aware of and hopefully it helps! Tempe enforces stringent noise abatement policies against PHX -- PHX is in the City of Phoenix but borders the City of Tempe, but because Tempe doesn't get a dime of revenue and only get jet noise, they're none too happy -- aircraft flying departures in East Flow have to pass over the PXR VOR and turn east again, essentially to stay out of Tempe. This sucks because even if PHX had 10 runways, it could only have 1 IFR departure at the same time (unless it's a turboprop).

So, when departures are in East Flow, they stay out of Tempe but come very close. Obviously departing aircraft are much noisier than arriving aircraft, particularly since most carriers utilize RNAV arrivals into PHX now-a-days. Because of this, Tempe pressured the City of Phoenix into signing an agreement (not sure if it was an LOA or an MoU) that operations will be no more than 50% East Flow. Typically PHX will be in East Flow for the morning rush and then switch to West in the early afternoon, unless of course weather demands otherwise.

This can be rather annoying because it limits the flexibility that ATC have over the operations, and unless the flows are switched during a really low period, it can be a major headache for a lot of people. There are also some operations that work well with one flow and are much more difficult with the other.

For example, the recent runway closures (first of 7R/25L then 7L/25R for status lighting install) combined with the 9am rush caused some MAJOR traffic jams, but would have been 50 times worse in West Flow, because departures had to be off of 8 instead of the usual 7L (if you look at an airport diagram, you'll see why). A few weeks ago I counted more than 50 aircraft waiting for departure (most US) in East Flow. The problem is (and is a problem every day, runway closure or not...just the way US does its banks) that the East Coast arrivals come in early and don't have a gate, so they have to wait in the hold bay, but aircraft trying to depart end up blocking the path of those trying to get in. What results is a colossal headache that took more than an hour to sort out...damn good thing the runways are all open again.

Hopefully that gives you a good idea of why the 50/50 thing sucks!



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9761 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 11):
Hopefully that gives you a good idea of why the 50/50 thing sucks!

Crystal clear. Thanks for taking the time to write. Sounds like a real NIMBY headache, indeed.   



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9675 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
Great! This is awesome for PHX since service has been cut so much in the past few years by US and WN.

The added flights are welcome. With the exception of MBJ, I cannot think of many new notable flights by US in PHX over the past couple years.

I am surprised that US has not taken more advantage of opportunities to Canada from PHX (or has not been able to make them work).

AC added PHX-YUL to its existing PHX-YYZ service.

WestJet is adding Regina and Saskatoon in December to its existing service to YEG, YWG, YYC, YVR.

[Edited 2010-11-27 08:38:23]

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
AC added PHX-YUL

Only on Sat/Sun though.

Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
WestJet is adding Regina and Saskatoon in December to its existing service to YEG, YWG, YYC, YVR.

WestJet is definitely growing by leaps and bounds.

A couple of weeks ago I saw 5 planes parked at once with Canadian regs. Very surreal.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepvd757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3412 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9401 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 5):
I would like US to expand to smaller markets in the East that they dropped service to, or markets that don't have PHX service at all(RDU, BDL, ALB, BUF)

Me too!

Oh, and PHX-PVD too!!


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9084 times:

I'm surprised they don't have IAD in there.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6743 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 16):
I'm surprised they don't have IAD in there.

It's not at all surprising; they've got three beyond-perimeter exemptions for PHX-DCA. There's not much point in operating a PHX-IAD flight to connect to United's international flights to/from IAD when United already offers that service.

Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
I am surprised that US has not taken more advantage of opportunities to Canada from PHX (or has not been able to make them work).

Again, it's not all that surprising; Canada-PHX probably carries a relatively high percentage of leisure traffic, which would be biased toward Canadian point-of-sale. As such, the Canadian carriers would have an advantage due to frequent traveler program loyalty and customer familiarity.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 3):
When I worked the ticket counter in the late 80's and early 90's, the HP night flights were a god send for Rule240'ing passengers over to, in an effort to get them to their destinations the same day, (albeit some would arrive early early morning the next day like at 3:00am)

Those HP night flights were also infamous for being sold opaquely through Priceline under their name-your-price model for purchasing flights. A lot of folks buying those tickets were unhappy about getting routed circuitously through LAS and arriving at crazy hours like 3 or 4 AM.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8845 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 11):
Typically PHX will be in East Flow for the morning rush and then switch to West in the early afternoon, unless of course weather demands otherwise.

I always thought they switched the flow around so the tower folks didn't have to stare into the sun all day...

 


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8771 times:

Quoting Western727 (Reply 12):
Crystal clear. Thanks for taking the time to write. Sounds like a real NIMBY headache, indeed.

Glad I could be of help! It is a headache, that's for sure!

Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
The added flights are welcome. With the exception of MBJ, I cannot think of many new notable flights by US in PHX over the past couple years.

I am surprised that US has not taken more advantage of opportunities to Canada from PHX (or has not been able to make them work).

Yeah, US hasn't done much with PHX which is rather annoying given the massive expansion they've done at PHL and particularly CLT. They've completely forgotten about PHX even though management can see the damn airport from their offices. I don't understand how they have PHX as 1 of 3 hubs, but have no flights to Europe. I have my doubts about them actually following through with their NRT plans in 2012 (now pushed to 2013, I think). At this point, I don't even see why PHX is even a hub considering it sees a grand total of zero widebodies each day. They essentially just left the HP operations the way they were and went about expanding from the two airports that put US into bankruptcy and near liquidation.

The Canadian flights surprise me too, particularly since they even have YV running some of their frequencies. They dropped the YYZ route, presumably because AC already runs it, but it seems to me that they could have made it work if they wanted to. There are so many Canadians (typically from Western Canada) who live in and visit the Valley, it would only make sense for them to pursue these routes. Some new housing communities even advertise by having large Canadian Flags next to their American Flags! WS has obviously seen promise in PHX with their new flights which brings them to six destinations; AC has three. US running from a hub only has three. Even if US were to add YV service to communities in Western Canada with a CRJ9 to Regina and Saskatoon (which WS has already pounced on) or even Winnipeg, it would at least make them look like they're pretending to run a hub. I'm pretty sure HP had better Canadian service than US.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 18):
I always thought they switched the flow around so the tower folks didn't have to stare into the sun all day...

Haha, actually most of the time you don't even see the sun in the tower because control positions sit up much higher in the cab than most towers -- designed specifically so the inside doesn't get much direct sunlight which keeps the tower cooler. There are really good retractable sun shades inside too. They switch the flows because they have to per the SOP (because of the agreement with Tempe) or because the winds demand a change. It's almost always East Flow in the morning and West Flow in the afternoon/evening, and if it's different, it's because of the weather.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8645 times:

Interesting...as a comparison, does WN have a lot of redeyes out of PHX?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 17):
Again, it's not all that surprising; Canada-PHX probably carries a relatively high percentage of leisure traffic, which would be biased toward Canadian point-of-sale. As such, the Canadian carriers would have an advantage due to frequent traveler program loyalty and customer familiarity.

Yes it is. You are assuming traffic is O&D only. WestJet has very limited operations in the United States. West of the Mississippi, WestJet only serves LAS, PHX, SoCal. US provides many connection opportunities that cannot be reached on WestJet.

In additon, the fact that US did not already serve these routes prior to WestJet entering these markets is what is very surprising considering PHX is a big draw for Canadians and US has a hub in PHX.

Now, if you are looking at only O&D traffic and the Canadian customer has a choice of US or WestJet, then WestJet may have the upper hand due to brand name recognition and FF programs.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 19):
I don't understand how they have PHX as 1 of 3 hubs, but have no flights to Europe. I have my doubts about them actually following through with their NRT plans in 2012 (now pushed to 2013, I think).

I actually believe NRT will happen. Japan was the second largest overseas origin market of international travelers to PHX in 2009 (Great Britain was number 1 and Germany was number 3). I think this combined with connecting traffic would make the route work.


User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8564 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 21):
I actually believe NRT will happen. Japan was the second largest overseas origin market of international travelers to PHX in 2009 (Great Britain was number 1 and Germany was number 3). I think this combined with connecting traffic would make the route work.

Hi Eric,

Im curious do you have a list showing this? I wonder who the top 10 are for PHX and their numbers

Thanks


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

Sure. Below are a couple links. Not sure if the first one will work. The first link takes you directly to the PDF presentation.

The second link will take you to the website and then you will need to click on the link that says: "2010 Research Roundup (2009 AZ statistics)"

http://www.azot.gov/system/files/93/...arch_Breakout_FINAL.pdf?1280179236

http://www.azot.gov/research-and-sta...research-reports-and-presentations

If you cannot get either of these to work, let me know and I can send the file to you. The international data I am referencing is on slide 19.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6743 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 8264 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 21):
You are assuming traffic is O&D only. WestJet has very limited operations in the United States. West of the Mississippi, WestJet only serves LAS, PHX, SoCal. US provides many connection opportunities that cannot be reached on WestJet.

Very few of those US "connection opportunities" have much traffic or make sense via PHX. The new flights on WS from YXE and YQR are once-weekly and specifically targeted at vacationers; even the quote from the news releases announcing the services makes that clear:

Quote:
"Phoenix is one of the most popular destinations for western Canadians looking for a quick and affordable winter getaway," said Hugh Dunleavy, WestJet Executive Vice-President, Strategy and Planning.

Once-weekly seasonal services between two already-served airports will make more sense for WS than it would for US to try to initiate seasonal service to airports they do not serve.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 19):
the massive expansion they've done at PHL and particularly CLT.

There has been no "massive expansion" at PHL. In November 2005, US and HP combined operated 474 daily departures (157 of these mainline) from PHL to 111 destinations. In November 2010, US Airways offers 415 daily departures (138 of those mainline) to 108 destinations. So total departures are down by about 12%, mainline departures are down by 12%, and destinations are down by 3%.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 19):
I don't understand how they have PHX as 1 of 3 hubs, but have no flights to Europe. I have my doubts about them actually following through with their NRT plans in 2012 (now pushed to 2013, I think). At this point, I don't even see why PHX is even a hub considering it sees a grand total of zero widebodies each day. They essentially just left the HP operations the way they were and went about expanding from the two airports that put US into bankruptcy and near liquidation.

US Airways didn't even have aircraft that could fly PHX-Europe (or Asia) non-stop until about 18 months ago, and there were better uses for those A332's. PHX-Asia will almost certainly not happen until the A350's enter the fleet. I guess Denver hasn't really been a hub for United since it doesn't have non-stop United service to Europe year-round or at all to Asia.

Phoenix has been losing air service in no small part due to it being one of the epicenters of the Great Recession. And America West was probably about 24 months away from its own bankruptcy filing back in 2005.


25 Western727 : WN does not fly redeyes as far as I know. Someone please verify or correct this for me.
26 FL787 : That's correct. They also seem to never have departures before 6am which is also unusual. You won't find any WN departures between 10pm and 6am.
27 chepos : No redeyes from PHX on WN, no redyes for WN for that matter out of anywere. PHX has been loosing destination (on US) for some time now - OKC (station
28 Post contains links EricR : Incorrect. The top destinations for travelers from Saskatchewan to the U.S. is Nevada, Arizona, and California. PHX is situated in an ideal location
29 ScottB : And these destinations are precisely the ones already served by WestJet from Western Canada. Actually, the number of foreclosures has little to do wi
30 USAirALB : They're coming, as soon as more A332s get here.
31 EricR : Yup, which goes back to the point I made previously (see reply 21 below) Check out the Bureau of Labor statistics website. At the peak in 2006, the c
32 Post contains images FutureUScapt : A more accurate description would be the number of seats which is down only 3-4% from the Nov 2005/06 time frame and/or the ASMs which are actually u
33 Cubsrule : Can you cite some evidence that either PHL or CLT was unprofitable in the early part of this decade (or has been since the merger)?
34 ScottB : And again, it is not, since for WS they are merely connecting stations which they already serve. US would have to open new stations in YWG/YXE/YQR fo
35 jc2354 : This could change once the union contracts are settled. Jack
36 Maverick623 : And every single one of those industries mentioned are intertwined. When one takes a huge hit, the rest will feel it. Now, to get back on topic: What
37 atcsundevil : What I was getting at was more in the way of international expansion, which there has been a large amount of (particularly at CLT) because they've re
38 EricR : I'm not sure how you are defining huge, but comparing this to Massachusetts is a bad comparison since AZ's population increased by 1.5 million from 2
39 ScottB : It's not surprising at all, again because the YXE/YQR traffic is predominantly originating in Canada. The traffic from PHX to Mexico/MBJ/SJO is almos
40 Post contains links EricR : Scott - Never once did I say this. I disputed your comment on PHX being one of the epicenters of the economic collapse. However, using the health of
41 Cubsrule : That's a little bit misleading, though. If you expand the radius, the number of top destinations, or both, the picture is quite a bit different.
42 yellowtail : PHX could be used as a great hub for all those W. Canadians wanting to go south to mexico/central america for the winter. Places like CZM, PVT, RTB, B
43 laca773 : What are they? LAS, LAX, SAN? There are many successful hubs that have very few if any widebody flights. This doesn't make a lot of sense on how sche
44 atcsundevil : By no means would I expect PHX to ever become some kind of European gateway, but at least SOMETHING. I understand US has contract disputes and I unde
45 Maverick623 : Seriously, what is the reason for your obsession with widebodies? I don't understand it. Revenue and passenger counts (and cargo) make a hub, not wha
46 atcsundevil : It's not an obsession, it's just my opinion so just deal with it. I have nothing against US other than the fact that I believe they have neglected PH
47 Post contains images Maverick623 : I was going for sarcastic, but this is an internet forum. An opinion with "facts" that aren't quite accurate. That's what I was pointing out. However
48 Cubsrule : Company headquarters has nothing to do with anything but real estate prices - and Doug Parker said so at the time of the merger. How many European de
49 dldtw1962 : The 00:50 flight from PHX to DTW is in responce to DL red-eye flight. Before they add this flight (US) DL was the only red-eye flight from PHX to DTW.
50 Maverick623 : No, it's just another city that US normally flies to during the day, that got an extra frequency at night. FLL, TPA, MSP, EWR, ORD, and STL, among ot
51 mke717spotter : I noticed that FL is also going to be adding a PHX-MKE red-eye in the coming months. Do you think that means US will add one as well?
52 Maverick623 : Outside of the "flex" days, as they're known, there will be zero red-eyes added anywhere (except maybe an extra CLT or PHL).
53 wn676 : It's always possible, though if they did I doubt that it would be in reaction to FL, especially with all the preaching from US management these days
54 atcsundevil : Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text. And you're right, this is an internet forum, but if I share my opinion, I shouldn't be attacked for it. That'
55 Cubsrule : UA is a big domestic widebody operator. For the past ten years or so, US hasn't been.
56 apodino : I personally don't see what widebodies have to do with whether an airport is a hub for an airline or not? The whole notion that an airport doesn't see
57 DCA-ROCguy : Thank you atcsundevil for this history--I did not know any of this about PHX. Isn't Phoenix bigger than Tempe? Can't they pressure the state governme
58 atcsundevil : No. You clearly haven't read everything I've posted, because I've addressed that. You're welcome! I've been very lucky to have had the benefit of gai
59 EricR : Actually PHX has in their long term plans an option for a 4th runway to be built north of the existing airfield. This would require PHX to acquire an
60 ca2ohHP : Pre-merger HP flew this frequency. I highly doubt US is interested in starting any battles with DL. All this "red eye expansion" talk is a tad over b
61 Cubsrule : Maybe the reason people are having trouble is that PHX doesn't look that much different from the other hubs run by "major international airlines" in
62 Maverick623 : To get technical, it's two banks. There's an east arrival/west departure followed by a slightly smaller west arrival/slightly larger east departure.
63 ca2ohHP : Is anything really permanent in this industry? If oil continues to rise, US will park those aircraft in a heartbeat. If you're really trying to go th
64 wn676 : It's actually two departure banks, one east and one west, plus a few in-between. Look at reply 4. Also, slightly off topic but maybe of interest to s
65 Maverick623 : Obviously, so far as "permanent" meaning regularly scheduled, not just on holidays. Calm down, I'm not discrediting anyone, I'm just giving out the c
66 wn676 : They've had it loaded for a few weeks now, but yeah, I saw that bit about it too. Three days a week for 6 months, and then probably how they have it
67 ca2ohHP : I would hardly call that grouping of flights within about 90 minutes or so two separate departure banks.
68 smoot4208 : I'd like them to add some flex scheduling to CLT and PHL as far as west airplanes parked at night. In cities like SNA (10pm departure), SJC and ABQ,
69 wn676 : What would you define as a bank then? PHX is a directional hub; they are considered by US to be two separate banks, and the east/west grouping is how
70 slcdeltarumd11 : I agree for some reason PHX just dosnt "feel" that hub like at USs operation. Its hard to explain but when you land in say DEN on UA or SLC on DL or
71 bjorn14 : I was wondering if Tempe has any influence over AZA's west traffic?
72 acjflyer : Tempe doesnt have any say in the West traffic from AZA due to the fact that the departure patterns dont have low flying aircraft over Tempe. Due to t
73 seabosdca : Speaking as someone who occasionally used that old LAS redeye bank... it just wouldn't feel right without slot machine noises echoing among huge crowd
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