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SAS Considering Buying 55 Aircraft  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3701 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 19706 times:

* SAS considering arming up for battle and add 55 new aircraft over a 6 year span.

* It is planning to phase out 37 older 737's and MD 80's and is expecting a passenger growt of 4 - 6 % over the next years.


* The company is in talks with Bombardier for 55 new aircraft of the CS300 type with a capacity of 120 to 145 passengers.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...lane-sas-order-executive-says.html

* Also considering A319, A320 and Neo

* The comopany is considering what is best of leasing or buying

* Selling off more shares in order to finance the purchase is out of the question

* SAS is into a 7.8 billion cost cutting program and it is not known when such a purchase will be ready.

- it will not happen tomorrow, says SAS spokesperson

http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/article3923186.ece




Your thoughts ?

How the hell is SAS going to be able to buy this many new aircraft ?

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19667 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Your thoughts ?

How the hell is SAS going to be able to buy this many new aircraft ?

Capital injection from forthcoming mother LH?


User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19657 times:

They always plan many things, like starting exciting overseas routes or acquiring new planes. I'm not holding my breath, however.

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19588 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Your thoughts ?

Those are plans only... But in order to survive they need newer planes so it seems logical even if their choice of aircraft are peculiar as usual. They badly need LH expertise because they are still running into bad decisions in my opinion.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 19380 times:

Fingers crossed for CSeries!


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5320 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 19105 times:

They have been talking about new planes for some time. I suspect they won't be seriously in the market until they get sold.


What the...?
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18919 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
How the hell is SAS going to be able to buy this many new aircraft ?

Bank loans? Manufacturer financing? Financial lease?

Quoting Navigator (Reply 3):
But in order to survive they need newer planes so it seems logical even if their choice of aircraft are peculiar as usual.

What's so strange about them considering the C-series?

So far, one of the main issues why the C-series lacks interest, is the size of the aircraft in relation to scope clauses at many airlines, mainly North American. Especially when the difference in costs between mainline flying and regional flying is significant, the C-series becomes unattractive.

When the scope clause is at 100 seats (like at quite some airlines), it's not interesting to fly an aircraft with just over 100 seats. The CASM for a 110-seat CS100 might exceed that of a 99-seat E190, simply because the flight and cabin crew need to be paid more.

The CS100 is just on the edge for many airlines, the CS130 is clearly a mainline aircraft. But as the CS130 is the biggest so far, you're quite unable to have benefits from commonality.

In that respect, the combination of CRJ or E-jets, together with 737s or A320s seems more attractive: one fleet type for regional flying, one type for mainline flying.

Now, SK doesn't seem to have such a scope clause, considering that SK flies the CRJ900s themselves. When there is no sudden hike in wages, the C-series might actually be a very good aircraft to them.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 3):
They badly need LH expertise because they are still running into bad decisions in my opinion.

You're refering to the airline who was the launch customer of this very same C-series, right?


User currently offlinesolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18896 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
I'm not holding my breath,

Neither do I.

//Mike      



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18720 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Your thoughts ?

If you have been reading their annual reports it says that they are very intersted in buying the Bombardier. This just firms up their annual reports. If SAS can get the same deal from Bombardier as Republic, then finance will not be a problem. SAS can commit, without any risks. IMO the Cseries will be a perfect fit for the SAS business modell. And finally a good DC-9 replacement.

SAS is in desperate need of simplifying their fleet. This order will help them achieve some of this. But it is quite a gamble for SAS to go for a plane that is not certified yet while desperatly needing to get down their number of airplantypes. SAS need to simplify NOW. Can they afford to wait for the new Cseries? It might be delayed if we look at other new airplane development. An airline in perfect health can afford to wait for new airplanes. Can SAS?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18673 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
SAS is in desperate need of simplifying their fleet. This order will help them achieve some of this. But it is quite a gamble for SAS to go for a plane that is not certified yet while desperatly needing to get down their number of airplantypes. SAS need to simplify NOW

In what way does simplifying the fleet help SAS on the short term? Where do the benefits come from?


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18423 times:

How much re sale value do the existing aircraft have.

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18367 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 10):
How much re sale value do the existing aircraft have.

Last January, Allegiant bought 13 MD-82/83s and 5 MD-87s from SAS for a total of around $28.3 Million, so that makes about $1.57 Million per aircraft. Additionally, Allegiant expected to spend around $4 Million per aircraft to prepare them for service (I expect they were due for heavy maintenance). But second-hand value of such old air frames isn't particularily high.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...01/04/awx_01_04_2010_p0-193906.xml

IIRC, OS sold a few MD-80s a few years ago for around $4 Million each, but those frames might have been younger of course.


User currently onlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3281 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18340 times:

Once again SK's fleet planning has me scratching my head...they drop two frame types but add another....too much aquavit I guess.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinegarynor From Norway, joined Oct 2010, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18066 times:

Although some headscratching might be in place, this could be a good move by SAS. It's an excellent opportunity to start restructuring the fleet.

Would it be logical to get rid of the CRJs as well when fazing in the C-series? Keep the efficient turboprops (get more?) for the shorter/thinner routes, use the C-series on medium capacity routes and choose either the 737 or 320 (NEO) series for high capacity routes? Brings the short/medium haul fleet types down from 6 (?) to 3 (might be hard to find takers for the -600 though...)


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17686 times:

Quoting garynor (Reply 13):
Would it be logical to get rid of the CRJs as well when fazing in the C-series?

Not at all, the CRJs are under 2 years old, and seat considerably fewer passengers.

Quoting garynor (Reply 13):
Keep the efficient turboprops (get more?) for the shorter/thinner routes

SK don't fly any turboprops anymore since the Q400 troubles. Within the SAS group, only Wideroe still flies turboprops. I don't see SK to return to the turboprops anytime soon.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17521 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
Once again SK's fleet planning has me scratching my head...they drop two frame types but add another....too much aquavit I guess.

So that's one simplicication. What else should they do? The CRJ900 has 88 seats, the 736 has 123. The 73G and A319 have 141 seats.

What should they do between 88 and 141 seats? Order more 737-600s? Doesn't sound like too good an idea to me. It's quite a gap between the CRJ900 and the 737-700/A319.

For the 737-600s, they'll probably just fly them until either fuel or maintenance become to expensive, and then park them.

55 C-series aircraft won't be delivered all at one day, but such a delivery can be stretched over many years. By 2019, the first 737-600s are already 20 years old and can be replaced by C-series.

What is very interesting: will it be possible to cross-rate pilots on both CRJ900 and CS110/130?


User currently offlineaxelesgg From Sweden, joined Jan 2010, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 16921 times:

No don't remove the MD-80's   But i guess they have to leave the fleet sometime...

User currently offlinebravo1six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 16835 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
If SAS can get the same deal from Bombardier as Republic, then finance will not be a problem.

Huh? What did Republic get that "finance will not be a problem"?


User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 16720 times:

Knowing SAS they will split the order between 5 manufacterors with 10 subtypes.. They like to have a real mixed fleet.  


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16479 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
- it will not happen tomorrow, says SAS spokesperson

Really?   

Don't believe anything until I see it flying in SAS colors.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15694 times:

Why no heavies?? Again LH take over preps?

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5320 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15641 times:

I am sure they are talking with BBD about the CSeries and on paper, it seems like a good fit. I wonder what kind of assurances Bombardier would have to give SK to get them to try another all new type.


What the...?
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15612 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 20):
Why no heavies?? Again LH take over preps?

What about: because the wide bodies are still quite new (oldest A340 is from 2001, newest A330 from 2004) and not due for replacement any time soon?


User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15526 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
and not due for replacement any time soon?

Both yes and no... I think they could review the A340s performance compared to other alternatives... Like something that has two engines instead of four.

But I was mostly asking because I would expect that they needed more heavies for expanding their offers on long haul destinations... Since they are not planning this expansion I guess, LH wish to take over that part of the service?

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15383 times:
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The CSeries makes more sense as a 737-500 and MD-82 replacement then getting more 737-600s from Boeing or adding the A318-100 from Airbus. I'm also interested to know how the CRJ-900 and CSeries cockpits are in terms of commonality.

Additional 73G or 738 models can be added to replace the 737-400s.

As for widebodies, a nice 10 frame 787-9 order to replace the A330-300s and A340-300s when they are ready for retirement would allow SK the flexibility to use the same plane on any route, which should make scheduling a bit easier.


25 davs5032 : I had wondered the same thing. Does anyone have any information on this?
26 Post contains images JoeCanuck : I have been looking around and I don't think there is very much commonality between the CSeries and CRJ's. CSeries; Courtesy Flight Global CRJ; Court
27 joost : And then, what? Spend money on replacing 9-year old frames, rather than replacing 20+ year old frames? Besides that, the A340 isn't that bad at all.
28 KiwiRob : SK only stopped flying Fokker 50's a couple of months ago, I was happy to see the back of it, the Widerø Q400 is much nicer and knocks a few miuntes
29 Lightbug : I am surprised that SK even considers this right now in the wake of trying to be a takeover target. Not sure how hard they have tried so far, but the
30 columba : SAS future fleet: CSeries A32xNEO 787-9 All sizes they need not dependent on one manufacturer ?
31 Lightbug : Is Wideroe flying the Q400 between these two destinations? I thought it may have been a Dash-8-300 with similar capacity to the F-50.
32 RoseFlyer : It would amaze me if they actually go for the C Series instead of A320/737. They already have a mixmatched fleet. Operating every narrowbody out there
33 JoeCanuck : I don't know if they would go for the E-jets since they seem to keep buying the competing CRJ's.
34 Post contains images windshear : Yeah you are right... Who am I to throw in theories or thoughts on this forum... You're the expert here I guess. Boaz.
35 Post contains images kiwiandrew : When I first saw the headline I thought "Where are SK going to find 55 different models that they can order 1 of each" , I think the comment someone
36 planemaker : Here is a list of their active NB fleet: Airbus A319-100 4 Airbus A321-200 8 Boeing 737-400 4 Boeing 737-500 9 Boeing 737-600 28 Boeing 737-700 19 Bo
37 Mortyman : I think you have missunderstod
38 Post contains images OyKIE : As others have noted, SAS has too many airplane types. This requiers more pilots, f/a's, mechanics, spares etc. Than The competition. Simplifying the
39 Lightbug : Sorry!! My bad.
40 DocLightning : Oh, that sucks. A glut of 736's? Yeah, time to get some new NB's. Boy, WN has stated that they'd be interested in a re-engined 737 or maybe an A320-N
41 MillwallSean : I'm not a big fan of SK, but modernising the narrowbody fleet seems to be a very needed and natural move. The 737 isnt working in Sweden or Denmark, w
42 KiwiRob : You better tell Norwegian, every flight I've been on with them this year has been on a half empty 737-800, it appears to work for them.
43 planemaker : Well, if you look at this quote from the article... "The airline plans to phase out 37 older 737s and Boeing MD-80s over the next few years while add
44 jox : What do you mean with "isnt working in Sweden"? I fly LLA-ARN ARN-LLA 1-2 times per week, and the planes (M82, 736, 73G and 738) are more or less alw
45 MillwallSean : the problems isnt in Norway, as stated the Norweigian government havent invested in infrastructure like its two brothers have. SAS Norway is also pro
46 jox : I agree with you about the financial performance, my objection was to your comment about the 737 (explicitly) "isnt working in Sweden"...
47 Post contains images cuban8 : I think I may be among the few here who doesn't think the CSeries is a good deal for SAS. As people have mentioned, bringing a new type of plane with
48 OyKIE : This is a spot on observation. I have been wondering about this my self. It seems like SAS fleet purchase seems to be a few years early if they want
49 Post contains images Maersk737 : You could be spot on.... If that's what SAS is planning? It's not as stupid as it sounds Get rid of MD-80' an classic 737' in 2 to 4 years. And a rep
50 Lightbug : Can they afford it right now? I know SK has taken delivery of an occasional 737-700 or -800 lately, but I'm not sure if they are able to secure finan
51 JoeCanuck : The advantage of keeping them is that they are paid for. The disadvantage of selling them is that they really aren't worth very much. I think the que
52 OyKIE : That is a good question indeed. What is SAS planning? It seems that their timing might be a bit of. This is a question I have no good answer for. The
53 planemaker : FYI, almost half are not paid for. 10 of the MD82's are leased and 1 of the MD87's is leased.... so it would be relatively easy to get rid of the MD8
54 Post contains images LN-KGL : The illustration above shows the current SAS Group fleet. It must indeed be a nightmare for at least one airline within the group. The number of diff
55 JoeCanuck : Nicely thought out and interesting. Thanks.
56 OyKIE : Interesting summary LN-KGL! You illustrate in a good way, why SAS has trouble being competitive. Even if their employees is paid less they will still
57 LN-KGL : This is the only place I have written this summary.
58 OyKIE : I'll just have to link to this site, then. Sort of on topic. The article says SAS will grow 4-6%. I believe that they are talking about this growthra
59 rlwynn : How would pilots or maintenance differ between the 600, 700 and 800. Not very much I would think
60 Maersk737 : It has to be annualy, or else it gives no meaning... Peter
61 LN-KGL : Acccording to pilots I have spoken with, it is very easy to notice the difference between the -600 and the -800 from the cockpit. The -800 is a much m
62 Post contains links SAS-A321 : Looks like it will not be a good idea for SAS to get the Cseries, as the A320NEO carrries the same amount of passengers, offers a wider cabin, with th
63 JoeCanuck : The 320NEO isn't a competitor for the CSeries. The 319 is the closes Airbus offering that may be, and it won't come around until 2017 at the earliest
64 SR4ever : C10 looks indeed quite promising on paper, but frankly, going primarily for Airbus would trigger major benefits in terms of fleet consistency, as SK l
65 davs5032 : Excellent post. That second graph illustrates (much better than I've been able to do) the situation where I think the Cseries would be a good move fo
66 davs5032 : Please tell me you don't actually believe this... ..Think carefully about who is making that statement and how he might be looking to benefit by peop
67 SAS-A321 : I only said it looks like. Of course Airbus will have to come with some performance figures to prove this. It is a very dangerous tactic to come with
68 BlueSky1976 : ...and do not forget that Bombardier is touting that the middle seat in the three-seat section will be a whole inch wider compared to A320 and TWO in
69 Post contains images OyKIE : Do you have the number of airporst, where the 737-800 would be too large? The A320 is almost as heavy, and I was not aware that it needed less runway
70 Post contains images EBGflyer : Yes...the good old Mad Dogs But you are right, I like the 2+3 seat configuration as well, which is the reason why I'm sad to see SK let go of their M
71 SR4ever : 2+3 abreast is doubtless something nice, but going for 3+3 proven jets will be easier for SK, especially given its tricky current situation. There rem
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