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Snow Causing The Usual Havoc  
User currently offlineBAW076 From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2006, 750 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17775 times:

It's that time of year again, snow is falling heavy here in Scotland, and Edinburgh Airport stops still!

Nothing has departed or landed today as of 1104z, there are a few aircraft in the air, in the vicinity that seem to have been holding for an eternity... will monitor where they end up!

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt178/BAW076/untitled.jpg

The BMA4HY has just landed at 1114z, the KLM1279 is on short finals now, so I would hazard a guess they have cleared the runway of snow now... however, still no departures.


Chris

[Edited 2010-11-28 05:34:51 by srbmod]


N754AN (x2), G-CPEL, G-MIDE, G-BPEC, G-BZHC, EI-DCH, LN-KKN, G-VIIW, G-BNLT, G-DBCA, G-MEDE, G-DBCE, G-MIDP.
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17672 times:
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Can't see it being open for long though!

METAR EGPH 281120Z 05011KT 020V080 0600 R06/0550 -SN BKN003 BKN006 OVC025 00/M00 Q1008 06590299=

TAF EGPH 281103Z 2812/2912 03012KT 9999 FEW020 BECMG 2812/2815 05020G32KT TEMPO 2812/2912 2000 SHSN BKN008CB PROB40 TEMPO 2812/2903 0300 +SHSN VV/// BECMG 2903/2906 03010KT BECMG 2909/2912 33012KT=

Not exactly the type of weather you'd want to land/take off in.

BA2936 showed up on MAN arrivals.


User currently offlinebochora From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17587 times:

GLA just closed with no estimate for reopen, 1 aircraft holding over GOW and the EK 777 on approach to GLA airspace. EDI shut as well though so diverts probably to Prestwick.

User currently offlinealasdair1982 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 17323 times:

Where did EK027 end up? the BAA website for GLA says "contact airline" for the arrival, no departure being listed.

User currently offlinebochora From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 17322 times:

Quoting alasdair1982 (Reply 3):
Where did EK027 end up?

In PIK, diverted after holding and speaking with company.


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3151 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13935 times:

Overnight the forecast is for parts of Scotland northeast coast and lower down could get up to 10 inches of snow.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/uk_forecast_warnings.html?day=2

Is Global warming on hold?



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently onlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13681 times:

I saw the EZY LTN-EDI diverted to NCL this morinng as well.

More snow forecast overnight for Scotland, Borders and NE England so may see more disruption tomorrow



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineskord From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9877 times:

LBA, EDI, ABZ, INV, MME... all really badly affected this morning. Its like the film 'The Day After Tomorrow!'  

User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?

In Russia even some really bad snowstorms cause almost no delays.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinebochora From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9817 times:

I think some of the airlines have higher requirements for cleared widths, etc. For example, yesterday GLA was open with snow clearing taking place in between departures until the pilot of a TCX 757 made a comment on departure that he should 'never have been allowed to depart off a runway in that state!'
It's down to ops and BAA here for example.


User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5123 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9803 times:

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8):
Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?

In Russia even some really bad snowstorms cause almost no delays.

Russia gets snowstorms on a regular basis, The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9645 times:
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Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8):
Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?

I too put it down to not enough investment in equipment. Look at airports in the NE USA. You see lines of snow ploughs and de-icers lying idle throughout the year. Ready to be used when needed, which is several times every year. In the UK snow doesn't fall every year. The thinking is 'why invest in equipment you only use once every 2-3 years'. In addition the wetter climate of the UK produces snow with more ice mixed in than in Canada/USA. Snow blowers aren't as effective. Sorry can't comment on the conditions in Russia.


User currently offlineJohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9576 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

CPH, partially open, lots of cancelled fligths.
MMX, flights diverting to AGH

The problem at CPH and MMX is that they are rather open airports, and even thoghth it's not a heavy snow fall, it's very windy and the snow builds up faster than the equipment can clear it.



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently onlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9502 times:

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8):
Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?

Its more than a little bit of snow, well more than we're used to anyway. I'm just outside of NCL and we had 9 inches of snow overnight.
The airports in the UK, as mentioned previously, just dont invest in the equipment to assist in snow clearance because it doesnt happena ll that often.



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9427 times:

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12):
CPH, partially open, lots of cancelled fligths.

And just for good measures:
EKCH 290850z 06021kt 5000 -sn drsn few011 bkn018 m02/m04 q1018 04490227 54490223 12490299 tempo 3000=


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9297 times:

The UK generally doesn't get much snow, and with global warming this was expected to become even less.

As it happens, the last 2 years we've actually got a lot more snow than usual, another winter like last year's and maybe airports (especially in Scotland and the North of England) may have to invest in more snow clearing equipment!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9234 times:

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 13):
Its more than a little bit of snow, well more than we're used to anyway. I'm just outside of NCL and we had 9 inches of snow overnight.

Well that's indeed then a little bit  
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.
Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 11):
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 13):
The airports in the UK, as mentioned previously, just dont invest in the equipment to assist in snow clearance because it doesnt happena ll that often.

Thanks guys for explaining! Good luck to all people involved.
The freezing will continue http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11859868



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinethediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8983 times:

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8):
Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?

In Russia even some really bad snowstorms cause almost no delays.

Its also a different type of snow. Russian Snow is drier and easier to clear snow that Atlantic European snow. Also the problem Airports have had this winter is Rain - Freezing, and then snow, so there is a build up of ice under the snow.

As mentioned before - airports dont plan to operate at 100% availability - simply too expensive to do so.


User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8879 times:

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12):
CPH, partially open, lots of cancelled fligths.
MMX, flights diverting to AGH

The problem at CPH and MMX is that they are rather open airports, and even thoghth it's not a heavy snow fall, it's very windy and the snow builds up faster than the equipment can clear it.

Yeah, this morning I had an interesting two hour flight on SK1415, the route ended up as ARN - ARN. Supposed to be ARN - CPH.  

Another try tonight!



A306,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/6,A380,B717,B727,B737,B744,B752/3,B763,B772/3/W,C-130,AN26,CRJ900,Il62,DC-8/9/10,MD80's,BaeR
User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8870 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):

Russia gets snowstorms on a regular basis, The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.

EDI, and I'm sure GLA too, has multimillion pounds worth of snow clearing equipment sitting on field. I've seen it up close myself.
My guess is the snow was too heavy at times to completely clear the runway to meet minimum specs for ops.
There is also the question of visibility to consider.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8466 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8860 times:
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My 06:45 flight from LHR to EDI was cancelled, after I had arrived at the airport, an early start for nothing!

Oh well, these things happen.



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User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1001 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8531 times:

Looks like there is an ongoing snowball fight at the Esplade, Edinburgh Castle.
Web camera link: http://www.camvista.com/scotland/edinburgh/tattoo.php

If you look at the live pictures from the Esplade there is a blue sky and hence no visibility problems at Turnhouse (EDI). I think many of these 'snow blizzard' closures could easily have been avoided. Most airports have some sort of snow removal equipment, but crew training is missing. Wonder if the airports also buy a new ground radar without training the crew how to use it?


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8470 times:

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 21):
If you look at the live pictures from the Esplade there is a blue sky and hence no visibility problems at Turnhouse (EDI). I think many of these 'snow blizzard' closures could easily have been avoided

But no-one has suggested that the problems have been related to visibility, so how do you feel they "could easily have been avoided"?

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 21):
Most airports have some sort of snow removal equipment, but crew training is missing. Wonder if the airports also buy a new ground radar without training the crew how to use it?

That's quite a piece of speculation....and purely that! On what factual basis are you questioning crew training?


User currently offlinenoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8408 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years

Or several times over the last 2 years. We've had a few years of warm winters, but bad winters are becoming more and more common, with snow from November - April possible. We will have snow like this until March now, each time the country will grind to a halt as people complain about it being "unprecedented". Unprecedented each time it snows  

We desperately need a better infrastructure to take into account the bad weather we get in winter. They are starting to get better snowploughs and gritters now for the roads, but the airports and railways still grind to a halt with more than a dusting.

Welcome to the UK  


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1001 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22):
But no-one has suggested that the problems have been related to visibility, so how do you feel they "could easily have been avoided"?
Quoting Garpd (Reply 19):
There is also the question of visibility to consider.

Hasn't Garpd suggested the question of visibility?

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22):
That's quite a piece of speculation....and purely that! On what factual basis are you questioning crew training?

I am indeed questioning the crew training. There are a number of airports with the same equipment that don't close their airport, have cleared the runways in no time and that even under real blizzard conditions (To be a blizzard, a snow storm must have winds in excess of 35 mph / 56 km/h. Additionally, blizzards must reduce visibility to 400 metres / 1,300 ft or less and must last for a prolonged period of time - typically three hours or more). The only difference is the crew operating the snow removal equipment - then the only possible conclusion is poor/no training or no need for input from the snow masters. This has been discussed earlier and I guess this time will not be the last time either.

One of the earlier discussion about snow removal in the UK was in this thread:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4689318/
Please scroll down to reply 46.
There is also a second thread with the same theme - this time scroll down to reply 64 here:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4955274/


25 aviationweek : As London's mayor Boris Johnson once said, "It's the wrong type of snow."
26 Post contains images LN-KGL : Didn't Boris Johnson also say, "There's no doubt about it, this is the right kind of snow, it's just the wrong kind of quantities."?
27 Post contains links RobK : The N/E UK (NCL/MME) and E Scotland (EDI/ABZ) in particular have had some serious amounts of snow since Wednesday last week. 'Serious' as in far far m
28 iainbhx : FRA is a mess today. Just got in 6:10 late on a FRA-BHX. 4:30 of which was waiting for de-icing while on the aircraft. Lots of cancellations.
29 musapapaya : People in our country will find their best ways to argue that on something like 'the cost benefit analysis has been done and it is decided that this
30 DocLightning : That's how DTW is. It can be coming down at a foot per hour and they'll keep the planes moving. NW (and I hope now DL) also altered their block times
31 thediplomat : In the same way, airlines accept an 80% punctuality rate. Companies the world over will do this - just like having no de-icer in South Florida for ex
32 richcandy : Different countries seam to set different priority. The UK it comes down to cost, does the cost out weigh the advantage. Example The road that my hou
33 Flyingfox27 : BA002, G-EUNB diverted to LGW just now.
34 Speedbird555 : Here in the East of London we have had less than half an inch of snow this morning, yet LCY has lot's of cancellations or indefinate delays. Is it to
35 Flyingfox27 : Gatwick Airport closed this morning at the moment its. EGKK 010420Z 03013KT 2400 -SN BKN008 OVC012 M02/M02 Q1007 SNOCLO ------------------------------
36 Post contains links and images readytotaxi : Gatwick airport is closed until at least 11am to enable runway & taxiway cleaning. OUCH!!! http://www.gatwickairport.com/
37 dazbo5 : Make that at least 0600 on 2nd December, it's just been announced. Darren
38 readytotaxi : Just how much snow did they get overnight? I am 20 miles north and did not get a drop.
39 Post contains links aerecosse : Edinburgh closed until at least 18.00 1 Dec due to snow. http://www.edinburghairport.com/
40 BAW217 : I'm in the office at Gatwick currently, we have mesured 7 inches and its still falling heavily with further heavy snow forecasted until 0600GMT tomor
41 AirbusA6 : The snow south of the river was very bad (by our standards). I imagine part of the problem, is staff being unable to get to the airport in the first p
42 LN-KGL : readytotaxi, using the M25 live web cameras (that are working) show snow on a clockwise trip from around junction 26 (12:30) and ends around junction
43 dazbo5 : Not one for me to answer since I'm 260 miles north of Gatwick! Things are relatively fine here in the North West (at the moment!). Darren
44 readytotaxi : Just a thought, do airlines get any financial assistance from the airport operator when they are unable to keep an airport open? Or is it the "old act
45 FlySSC : GVA is closed to all traffic since yesterday evening. LYS is still opened but several flights cancelled. CDG is operating normally.
46 RobK : LBA defo snow closed for rest of day here. Had 5" of snow here in last few hours and still coming down at full chat. Looking on the radar it looks lik
47 planesailing : Nope, most of the expected staff seemed to be in today which was good. Passengers had made it too!
48 lhr380 : We are so lucky here at LHR, we had a light dusting yesterday and thats about it. Scary to think that just down the M25 our friends at LGW are having
49 AirNZ : No, there wouldn't be any financial assistance from an airport. Quite correct really, as an airport has no more control over the weather as an airlin
50 LN-KGL : The opening of Gatwick is now moved until at least 10:00 hrs tomorrow.
51 FlySSC : CDG and ORY will also be affected tomorrow. 25% of flights will be cancelled at CDG and 10% at ORY
52 david_itl : Couple of small closures during the day for MAN. But there's a NOTAM out saying no diversions unless on emergency till 1200 tomorrow.
53 LN-KGL : I think Gatwick Airport now has gone from just being funny to being ridiculous - the re-opening of the airport is postponed until tomorrow morning Fri
54 richcandy : yes but not for London.
55 sfuk : Yes but what you need to bare in mind is that these are not normal conditions for the UK (London area anyway). Lets work it on percentages. I'll stic
56 noelg : It's just London experiencing difficulties as usual, rest of the country has up to 3ft of snow on the ground and airports all running with slight del
57 lhr380 : Its a 1 runway airport as well, there would be no way from what I have been told by people living in the area that the airport would have coped with
58 Candid76 : It's actually been a nice day here at MAN with little if any snow, the airport does not seem to be experiencing any delays that could be put down to M
59 Giancavia : Ive seen flight after flight after flight plop down in Luton. Usualy we suck ass when it comes to snow .. LTN up on a hill also but so far compared to
60 Post contains images lhr380 : You just made my day even better, thanks lol Im a late shift tomorrow.........
61 Post contains images NZ001 : Haha, enjoy all those happy customers. From what I can see, there are only a few cancellations at LHR by British airlines like BA and BMI. Most other
62 lhr380 : There, from what I have seen, has been no long haul flights cancelled at LHR
63 flymia : I was flying MIA-BOS-LHR-BCN January 6-7th that was two well really 3 long days. 6 hour delay in BOS for LHR snow, 10 hours in LHR. It is crazy what s
64 apodino : I bet all those US airlines are so happy today that they have been able to shift most of their London ops to LHR.
65 LX138 : The LGW closure is really really bad. You would think that after 2 bad winters they would have learnt. But no. Whats even more embarrasing is that the
66 lhr380 : Today is day 2 of the airport closure. They do indeed have it very bad there. So bad that even if the equipment BAA LHR has, it would still have clos
67 LX138 : Closed on Tuesday evening, so 2.5 days at least of non-activity!
68 readytotaxi : Gatwick has a forecast of light snow showers until 9pm and the over night minus 4-6 degrees.Update at 9pm but still planning to open at 0600.
69 JL418 : I was in Edinburgh on Sunday 28th of November, due to fly south on EZY to MXP. My flight was first called at gate 11 and then cancelled. I was quite c
70 Post contains images ClassicLover : It's been snowing heavily all day in Dublin, but the airport only gets closed periodically for a couple of hours to clear the runway then reopens. I w
71 Giancavia : Its somethign I just dont understand and its poor excuses they they "dont know when to expect snow". Invest in the damn equiptment and be prepared. O
72 maddog888 : However it could be argued that although an airport has no control over the weather, with something like snow it has total control over the effect th
73 Post contains links DanTaylor2006 : If you still have the ticket for your journey: http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/...s/3/Delay_Repay_Form_Sept_2010.pdf
74 Flyingfox27 : I heard something on the news that its cost £12 Billion so far, so i wonder which is cheaper out of a heated runway/taxiways and apron and snowplough
75 david_itl : These are the last 3 METARS for LGW: METAR EGKK 022050Z 03008KT 9999 -SN BKN009 M02/M03 Q1009 582900//= METAR EGKK 022020Z 03008KT 7000 -SN BKN012 M02
76 AirNZ : But that figure quoted earlier today includes everything, including lost productivity etc, in the entire United Kingdom so therefore it is completely
77 JL418 : Many thanks Dan, luckily I still have the ticket with me.
78 maddog888 : Whilst I would agree that snow is only one small component of adverse weather, I disagree with your conclusion. If it was wind shear or fog or torren
79 lhr380 : That will not happen! I cant see that ever getting installed in LHR or LGW. It would hardly ever be used, and not be worth the money it would cost to
80 BAW076 : Here we go again at Edinburgh! Snow is coming down heavy and hard and planes are being held outside Edinburgh... Currently flights KLM1277, BCY5050, E
81 Post contains images skidmarks : Well, after last weeks shenanigans in UK I do hope this week is going to be better! Here at Norwegian we had 6 aircraft stuck in UK for two nights and
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