BAW076 From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 29 Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17050 times:
It's that time of year again, snow is falling heavy here in Scotland, and Edinburgh Airport stops still!
Nothing has departed or landed today as of 1104z, there are a few aircraft in the air, in the vicinity that seem to have been holding for an eternity... will monitor where they end up!
The BMA4HY has just landed at 1114z, the KLM1279 is on short finals now, so I would hazard a guess they have cleared the runway of snow now... however, still no departures.
david_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16947 times:
bochora From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 491 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16862 times:
GLA just closed with no estimate for reopen, 1 aircraft holding over GOW and the EK 777 on approach to GLA airspace. EDI shut as well though so diverts probably to Prestwick.
alasdair1982 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2008, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16598 times:
Where did EK027 end up? the BAA website for GLA says "contact airline" for the arrival, no departure being listed.
readytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13210 times:
Overnight the forecast is for parts of Scotland northeast coast and lower down could get up to 10 inches of snow.
bochora From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 491 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9092 times:
I think some of the airlines have higher requirements for cleared widths, etc. For example, yesterday GLA was open with snow clearing taking place in between departures until the pilot of a TCX 757 made a comment on departure that he should 'never have been allowed to depart off a runway in that state!'
It's down to ops and BAA here for example.
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4988 posts, RR: 38 Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9078 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8): Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?
In Russia even some really bad snowstorms cause almost no delays.
Russia gets snowstorms on a regular basis, The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.
Eagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1616 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8920 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8): Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?
I too put it down to not enough investment in equipment. Look at airports in the NE USA. You see lines of snow ploughs and de-icers lying idle throughout the year. Ready to be used when needed, which is several times every year. In the UK snow doesn't fall every year. The thinking is 'why invest in equipment you only use once every 2-3 years'. In addition the wetter climate of the UK produces snow with more ice mixed in than in Canada/USA. Snow blowers aren't as effective. Sorry can't comment on the conditions in Russia.
JohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1339 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8851 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SUPPORT
CPH, partially open, lots of cancelled fligths.
MMX, flights diverting to AGH
The problem at CPH and MMX is that they are rather open airports, and even thoghth it's not a heavy snow fall, it's very windy and the snow builds up faster than the equipment can clear it.
7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
Sketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1772 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8777 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8): Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?
Its more than a little bit of snow, well more than we're used to anyway. I'm just outside of NCL and we had 9 inches of snow overnight.
The airports in the UK, as mentioned previously, just dont invest in the equipment to assist in snow clearance because it doesnt happena ll that often.
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 1906 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8572 times:
The UK generally doesn't get much snow, and with global warming this was expected to become even less.
As it happens, the last 2 years we've actually got a lot more snow than usual, another winter like last year's and maybe airports (especially in Scotland and the North of England) may have to invest in more snow clearing equipment!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
Severnaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8509 times:
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 13): Its more than a little bit of snow, well more than we're used to anyway. I'm just outside of NCL and we had 9 inches of snow overnight.
Well that's indeed then a little bit
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10): The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 13): The airports in the UK, as mentioned previously, just dont invest in the equipment to assist in snow clearance because it doesnt happena ll that often.
thediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8258 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 8): Tell me, why are operations in mainly the UK always so much affected when there's a little bit of snow? Is it lack of suitable equipment/experience?
In Russia even some really bad snowstorms cause almost no delays.
Its also a different type of snow. Russian Snow is drier and easier to clear snow that Atlantic European snow. Also the problem Airports have had this winter is Rain - Freezing, and then snow, so there is a build up of ice under the snow.
As mentioned before - airports dont plan to operate at 100% availability - simply too expensive to do so.
EBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 216 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8154 times:
Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12): CPH, partially open, lots of cancelled fligths.
MMX, flights diverting to AGH
The problem at CPH and MMX is that they are rather open airports, and even thoghth it's not a heavy snow fall, it's very windy and the snow builds up faster than the equipment can clear it.
Yeah, this morning I had an interesting two hour flight on SK1415, the route ended up as ARN - ARN. Supposed to be ARN - CPH.
Garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8145 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
Russia gets snowstorms on a regular basis, The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years... not worth investing in equipment to deal with it.
EDI, and I'm sure GLA too, has multimillion pounds worth of snow clearing equipment sitting on field. I've seen it up close myself.
My guess is the snow was too heavy at times to completely clear the runway to meet minimum specs for ops.
There is also the question of visibility to consider.
BA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8263 posts, RR: 56 Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8135 times:
My 06:45 flight from LHR to EDI was cancelled, after I had arrived at the airport, an early start for nothing!
If you look at the live pictures from the Esplade there is a blue sky and hence no visibility problems at Turnhouse (EDI). I think many of these 'snow blizzard' closures could easily have been avoided. Most airports have some sort of snow removal equipment, but crew training is missing. Wonder if the airports also buy a new ground radar without training the crew how to use it?
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7745 times:
Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 21): If you look at the live pictures from the Esplade there is a blue sky and hence no visibility problems at Turnhouse (EDI). I think many of these 'snow blizzard' closures could easily have been avoided
But no-one has suggested that the problems have been related to visibility, so how do you feel they "could easily have been avoided"?
Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 21): Most airports have some sort of snow removal equipment, but crew training is missing. Wonder if the airports also buy a new ground radar without training the crew how to use it?
That's quite a piece of speculation....and purely that! On what factual basis are you questioning crew training?
noelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7683 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10): The UK gets heavy snow once every couple of years
Or several times over the last 2 years. We've had a few years of warm winters, but bad winters are becoming more and more common, with snow from November - April possible. We will have snow like this until March now, each time the country will grind to a halt as people complain about it being "unprecedented". Unprecedented each time it snows
We desperately need a better infrastructure to take into account the bad weather we get in winter. They are starting to get better snowploughs and gritters now for the roads, but the airports and railways still grind to a halt with more than a dusting.
LN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 803 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7573 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22): But no-one has suggested that the problems have been related to visibility, so how do you feel they "could easily have been avoided"?
Quoting Garpd (Reply 19): There is also the question of visibility to consider.
Hasn't Garpd suggested the question of visibility?
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22): That's quite a piece of speculation....and purely that! On what factual basis are you questioning crew training?
I am indeed questioning the crew training. There are a number of airports with the same equipment that don't close their airport, have cleared the runways in no time and that even under real blizzard conditions (To be a blizzard, a snow storm must have winds in excess of 35 mph / 56 km/h. Additionally, blizzards must reduce visibility to 400 metres / 1,300 ft or less and must last for a prolonged period of time - typically three hours or more). The only difference is the crew operating the snow removal equipment - then the only possible conclusion is poor/no training or no need for input from the snow masters. This has been discussed earlier and I guess this time will not be the last time either.
25 aviationweek: As London's mayor Boris Johnson once said, "It's the wrong type of snow."
26 LN-KGL: Didn't Boris Johnson also say, "There's no doubt about it, this is the right kind of snow, it's just the wrong kind of quantities."?
27 RobK: The N/E UK (NCL/MME) and E Scotland (EDI/ABZ) in particular have had some serious amounts of snow since Wednesday last week. 'Serious' as in far far m
28 iainbhx: FRA is a mess today. Just got in 6:10 late on a FRA-BHX. 4:30 of which was waiting for de-icing while on the aircraft. Lots of cancellations.
29 musapapaya: People in our country will find their best ways to argue that on something like 'the cost benefit analysis has been done and it is decided that this
30 DocLightning: That's how DTW is. It can be coming down at a foot per hour and they'll keep the planes moving. NW (and I hope now DL) also altered their block times
31 thediplomat: In the same way, airlines accept an 80% punctuality rate. Companies the world over will do this - just like having no de-icer in South Florida for ex
32 richcandy: Different countries seam to set different priority. The UK it comes down to cost, does the cost out weigh the advantage. Example The road that my hou
33 Flyingfox27: BA002, G-EUNB diverted to LGW just now.
34 Speedbird555: Here in the East of London we have had less than half an inch of snow this morning, yet LCY has lot's of cancellations or indefinate delays. Is it to
35 Flyingfox27: Gatwick Airport closed this morning at the moment its. EGKK 010420Z 03013KT 2400 -SN BKN008 OVC012 M02/M02 Q1007 SNOCLO ------------------------------
36 readytotaxi: Gatwick airport is closed until at least 11am to enable runway & taxiway cleaning. OUCH!!! http://www.gatwickairport.com/
37 dazbo5: Make that at least 0600 on 2nd December, it's just been announced. Darren
38 readytotaxi: Just how much snow did they get overnight? I am 20 miles north and did not get a drop.
39 aerecosse: Edinburgh closed until at least 18.00 1 Dec due to snow. http://www.edinburghairport.com/
40 BAW217: I'm in the office at Gatwick currently, we have mesured 7 inches and its still falling heavily with further heavy snow forecasted until 0600GMT tomor
41 AirbusA6: The snow south of the river was very bad (by our standards). I imagine part of the problem, is staff being unable to get to the airport in the first p
42 LN-KGL: readytotaxi, using the M25 live web cameras (that are working) show snow on a clockwise trip from around junction 26 (12:30) and ends around junction
43 dazbo5: Not one for me to answer since I'm 260 miles north of Gatwick! Things are relatively fine here in the North West (at the moment!). Darren
44 readytotaxi: Just a thought, do airlines get any financial assistance from the airport operator when they are unable to keep an airport open? Or is it the "old act
45 FlySSC: GVA is closed to all traffic since yesterday evening. LYS is still opened but several flights cancelled. CDG is operating normally.
46 RobK: LBA defo snow closed for rest of day here. Had 5" of snow here in last few hours and still coming down at full chat. Looking on the radar it looks lik
47 planesailing: Nope, most of the expected staff seemed to be in today which was good. Passengers had made it too!
48 lhr380: We are so lucky here at LHR, we had a light dusting yesterday and thats about it. Scary to think that just down the M25 our friends at LGW are having
49 AirNZ: No, there wouldn't be any financial assistance from an airport. Quite correct really, as an airport has no more control over the weather as an airlin
50 LN-KGL: The opening of Gatwick is now moved until at least 10:00 hrs tomorrow.
51 FlySSC: CDG and ORY will also be affected tomorrow. 25% of flights will be cancelled at CDG and 10% at ORY
52 david_itl: Couple of small closures during the day for MAN. But there's a NOTAM out saying no diversions unless on emergency till 1200 tomorrow.
53 LN-KGL: I think Gatwick Airport now has gone from just being funny to being ridiculous - the re-opening of the airport is postponed until tomorrow morning Fri
55 sfuk: Yes but what you need to bare in mind is that these are not normal conditions for the UK (London area anyway). Lets work it on percentages. I'll stic
56 noelg: It's just London experiencing difficulties as usual, rest of the country has up to 3ft of snow on the ground and airports all running with slight del
57 lhr380: Its a 1 runway airport as well, there would be no way from what I have been told by people living in the area that the airport would have coped with
58 Candid76: It's actually been a nice day here at MAN with little if any snow, the airport does not seem to be experiencing any delays that could be put down to M
59 Giancavia: Ive seen flight after flight after flight plop down in Luton. Usualy we suck ass when it comes to snow .. LTN up on a hill also but so far compared to
60 lhr380: You just made my day even better, thanks lol Im a late shift tomorrow.........
61 NZ001: Haha, enjoy all those happy customers. From what I can see, there are only a few cancellations at LHR by British airlines like BA and BMI. Most other
62 lhr380: There, from what I have seen, has been no long haul flights cancelled at LHR
63 flymia: I was flying MIA-BOS-LHR-BCN January 6-7th that was two well really 3 long days. 6 hour delay in BOS for LHR snow, 10 hours in LHR. It is crazy what s
64 apodino: I bet all those US airlines are so happy today that they have been able to shift most of their London ops to LHR.
65 LX138: The LGW closure is really really bad. You would think that after 2 bad winters they would have learnt. But no. Whats even more embarrasing is that the
66 lhr380: Today is day 2 of the airport closure. They do indeed have it very bad there. So bad that even if the equipment BAA LHR has, it would still have clos
67 LX138: Closed on Tuesday evening, so 2.5 days at least of non-activity!
68 readytotaxi: Gatwick has a forecast of light snow showers until 9pm and the over night minus 4-6 degrees.Update at 9pm but still planning to open at 0600.
69 JL418: I was in Edinburgh on Sunday 28th of November, due to fly south on EZY to MXP. My flight was first called at gate 11 and then cancelled. I was quite c
70 ClassicLover: It's been snowing heavily all day in Dublin, but the airport only gets closed periodically for a couple of hours to clear the runway then reopens. I w
71 Giancavia: Its somethign I just dont understand and its poor excuses they they "dont know when to expect snow". Invest in the damn equiptment and be prepared. O
72 maddog888: However it could be argued that although an airport has no control over the weather, with something like snow it has total control over the effect th
73 DanTaylor2006: If you still have the ticket for your journey: http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/...s/3/Delay_Repay_Form_Sept_2010.pdf
74 Flyingfox27: I heard something on the news that its cost £12 Billion so far, so i wonder which is cheaper out of a heated runway/taxiways and apron and snowplough
75 david_itl: These are the last 3 METARS for LGW: METAR EGKK 022050Z 03008KT 9999 -SN BKN009 M02/M03 Q1009 582900//= METAR EGKK 022020Z 03008KT 7000 -SN BKN012 M02
76 AirNZ: But that figure quoted earlier today includes everything, including lost productivity etc, in the entire United Kingdom so therefore it is completely
77 JL418: Many thanks Dan, luckily I still have the ticket with me.
78 maddog888: Whilst I would agree that snow is only one small component of adverse weather, I disagree with your conclusion. If it was wind shear or fog or torren
79 lhr380: That will not happen! I cant see that ever getting installed in LHR or LGW. It would hardly ever be used, and not be worth the money it would cost to
80 BAW076: Here we go again at Edinburgh! Snow is coming down heavy and hard and planes are being held outside Edinburgh... Currently flights KLM1277, BCY5050, E
81 skidmarks: Well, after last weeks shenanigans in UK I do hope this week is going to be better! Here at Norwegian we had 6 aircraft stuck in UK for two nights and
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