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China Eastern May Cancel 787 Order.  
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 30
Posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 17095 times:

China Eastern is publicly using the strongest language of airlines facing further delays in delivery.


http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...n-considers-canceling-15-787s-1129

Quote:
"Most probably we [will] cancel," the source told ATW. "We are negotiating with Boeing about choosing [a] replacement aircraft type…now."

Has the dam burst leading more to follow suit? What possible replacement planes could Boeing, (or Airbus), deliver before the 787?


What the...?
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7619 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 16971 times:

Wow, no doubt the pressure is mounting on Boeing. This seems worse than the Airbus A380 delays.

I wonder if MU would find a combo of 77Ls and A332s useful as "replacements" of the 787s.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 16763 times:

According to Wiki, they have 3 767-300ER's. How long would it take to crank out a few 767's, if that is what is decided upon? If they decided to just forget about Boeing, when could they expect to get 330's?


What the...?
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 16597 times:

For domestic and regional flights 767s aint so bad.

Maybe refurbish some older (parked) 767s. Winglets, fresh engines.

AC did a great job IMO.



User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 16531 times:
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Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
According to Wiki, they have 3 767-300ER's

They inherited 3 RR powered 767-300ERs when they took over Yunnan ( ? ) Airlines , if they do order factory fresh examples it will be interesting to see what engine choice they make .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31259 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 16425 times:
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CZ wanted both the A380 and the 787 for the 2008 Summer Games, so I am kind of not surprised they are thinking of dumping the 787 considering how many A330-200s they have in place and on order.

I can't see them taking the 767, so I am guessing 777-200ERs since they already operate the 777-200 and 777-200ER. They could also boost their freighter ops and take 747-8Fs or more 777Fs.


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 16045 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
CZ

Wrong airline. CZ is China Southern.



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4864 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 15970 times:
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Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Wow, no doubt the pressure is mounting on Boeing


It is remarkable that after Al Baker's comments now other airlines with B787's on order are making public statements on the B787, and all are very negative.  


Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
This seems worse than the Airbus A380 delays.


It already is in time and in volume. Also there were no cancellations on the A380 program (Airbus put the freighter on ice which made the A380-F orders "go away". No doubt they payed for that) and there already have been quite a number of cancellations on the B787 program. Now Boeing might lose some premium customers which will no doubt hurt very much. Even more maybe on prestige and name then on finances.  


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 15510 times:

CEA says they get A330s next year and will use them on expansion to Europe. For a cargo intensive market like PVG a stretch (>5500NM straight line).

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=pvg-lhr&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

Probably they'll switch some -300s to 200s. .The 787-8 seem oddly small in their fleet anyway, replacing A340s?Maybe cheap 777LRs are better for Europe and US flights, or 787-9s after 2020 like Delta.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31259 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 14888 times:
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Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
It is remarkable that after Al Baker's comments now other airlines with B787's on order are making public statements on the B787, and all are very negative.

Why is it remarkable? The plane is years late already and getting later by the day.

The days of customers being (privately) happy the plane was late during the GFC are over now that the GFC is over and air travel is picking up again. They need the planes now and instead they have to fumble about trying to renew/extend leases, re-furb aircraft planned for retirement and keep them flying for another half-decade at least to recover the costs of doing so and delay/defer new routes and frequency expansion.


User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 14471 times:

Maybe some more B787 cancellations is just what Boeing needs now?
It could ease the pressure and free up some slots?!?

I know it's no ideal and we don't really know how long the new delay will be (or what Boeing has communicated to MU), but in this heat maybe a rally won't be such a bad thing.


User currently offlinecerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 14263 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
They inherited 3 RR powered 767-300ERs when they took over Yunnan ( ? ) Airlines , if they do order factory fresh examples it will be interesting to see what engine choice they make .

The issue is that 777 is going to be a new type for MU, and they are unlikely to order 767 now that they have plenty of A330s coming in. Unlike CA, they did not switch to 787-9. Their largest plane, the A346s, are quite new, and their A343s aren't exactly old either. I am not sure Boeing would try as hard to win over MU as they did with SQ. At the same time, I am sure Airbus is offering quite a deal on A350s. It will sure be interesting to see how it turns out.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6845 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 13889 times:

If they like A340s, maybe Boeing has some to sell them ? 


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 13868 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Wow, no doubt the pressure is mounting on Boeing.

You don't get any higher than "infinite." Boeing has been under a lot of pressure for the last few years. I don't think that increasing it is going to yield any different results.

One reason that airlines have not canceled their orders is because there is very little competition at the level of large airliners. In fact, there are two manufacturers for planes bigger than ~150 seats. In many areas, those manufacturers don't even offer competing products. For example, the 787 really doesn't have any competition. The A330 lacks the performance and has higher fuel burn while the A350 family barely overlaps the 787 family in terms of capacity.

And so if the airlines see a need in their fleets for an aircraft with the 787's performance and efficiency, their only choice is to wait it out.

If another manufacturer, like Bombardier or Embraer, started to encroach on this territory, I think we might see that it would be to the detriment of both A and B if the smaller manufacturer actually were able to deliver its products on time.

So here we are with a 3 year delay and now a number of airlines making noises like the delay will be very much longer. We've heard rumors on this site about anywhere from 3-9 months and, given that 100% of such past rumors were true, I have little reason to disbelieve them today.

CEA ordered these aircraft five years ago. They expected to have them in the air by now. The idea that an airline orders a new airliner and has to wait almost a decade for it is absurd. It seems to me that this is a very different BCA than the one that proudly launched the 777, 73G and 744 all without major hitches.


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 13651 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
If they like A340s, maybe Boeing has some to sell them ?

That might be an idea you know! Take the A340s from EK and loan them to MU as interim lift.

I think Boeing has to contain this. Looking at the major Chinese carriers, they currently have mainly Airbus widebodies in their fleet (except Air China ). The 787 has been a breakthrough into the Chinese widebody market. They don't want it to turn sour and get shut out of a large market.


User currently offlinethediplomat From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 382 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 hours ago) and read 12356 times:

Quoting Chiad (Reply 10):
Maybe some more B787 cancellations is just what Boeing needs now?
It could ease the pressure and free up some slots?!?

Not from a large aircraft purchaser like China Eastern.

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 14):
The 787 has been a breakthrough into the Chinese widebody market. They don't want it to turn sour and get shut out of a large market.

Exactly.


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 855 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 hours ago) and read 12043 times:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but MU didn't order the 787, they inherited the order when they purchased FM.

User currently offlineGarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2697 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 hours ago) and read 11944 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
It is remarkable that after Al Baker's comments now other airlines with B787's on order are making public statements on the B787, and all are very negative.

Not remarkable at all. The plane is 3 years late!
Late is late, however you want to sell it. Al Baker's rant just opened the floodgates.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1882 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 hours ago) and read 11930 times:

And once the 787 proves itself in service, all the airlines that cancelled orders and went with different types will be wishing they hadn't!

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1224 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 hours ago) and read 11775 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Thread starter):
Has the dam burst leading more to follow suit? What possible replacement planes could Boeing, (or Airbus), deliver before the 787?

The Airbus A330 and the 777 are probably the most efficient replacements. But there may not be enough planes available for the 787 delivery slots that are delayed. Thus expansion at some carriers may be threatened. The way many carriers go is to keep older planes longer than planned.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineMEL From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1100 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years ago) and read 11105 times:

keesje.... that is a photo of an Air Canada 777, not a 763. But I agree, that the refurb 763s are nice.


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User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1584 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years ago) and read 11052 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):

They inherited 3 RR powered 767-300ERs when they took over Yunnan ( ? ) Airlines , if they do order factory fresh examples it will be interesting to see what engine choice they make .

Well you still cant get RR engines with winglets on the 767 so the decision is either PW or GE

Talking of winglets isn't there a rumour that Airbus may be thinking of refreshing the A330 winglet design? Another couple of hundred km range / ton of cargo / x% fuel burn improvement + lower purchase cost and known reliable product and some may decide that the 787 is not worth waiting for even if they knew when it would arrive.



BV
User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years ago) and read 10987 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 3):
Maybe refurbish some older (parked) 767s. Winglets, fresh engines.

AC did a great job IMO.

Yeah, I was on the refurbished 763 the other day from YYZ to CPH and I was positively surprised. Very comfortable cabin config. Great with mood lightning, big PTV, power and usb-port.



Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years ago) and read 10863 times:

Hopefully they get the 747-8I instead  


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10596 times:

Quoting MEL (Reply 20):
keesje.... that is a photo of an Air Canada 777, not a 763. But I agree, that the refurb 763s are nice.

You are right, a better example is First Choice 767s

http://www.airliners.net/photo/First...rways/Boeing-767-39H-ER/1504968/L/

They negotiated the 767 upgrade with Boeing when ordering 787s. They were the European launch customer for the 787 and placed its first order for six 787s in July 2004.. They did the smart thing (looking back) ordering the new thing but covering their .sses for delays at the same time..


25 Navigator : It would surprise me if most airlines that have ordered the 787 not also have contracts with clauses regarding compensation because of delayed delive
26 777way : Thats a 777 in the pic.
27 Post contains links BD338 : they do have such clauses (Liqudated Damages). According to this story in the Sydney Morning Herald last week on the latest delay, QANTAS have receiv
28 parapente : "Talking of winglets isn't there a rumour that Airbus may be thinking of refreshing the A330 winglet design?"Reply21 There was a very recent thread on
29 keesje : In the end your financials play a role. The leasing companies are always willing to discuss early slots, as some less healthy airlines might be. I ha
30 Stitch : AI was asking for $715 million, but they are contractually allowed $145 million, which is what Boeing is willing to pay. MH received $103 million for
31 Flying-Tiger : At least one of the large fuselage section might become carbon-fibre.
32 parapente : At least one of the large fuselage section might become carbon-fibre.(above) If you say so. Sounds unlikley though.(For an Al aircraft) Glare or AlLi
33 Centre : A little bit of topic: Just noticed that this was your 787th post on A.net, what a coincidence! and how bored I am to notice that?
34 DocLightning : Speed is one thing, reliability is another. If you order a 332 from A, they can give you a delivery date and, barring a hurricane in Tolouse, they'll
35 Post contains images Stitch : And with yet another "indeterminate EIS delay" being announced by Boeing today, when you're going to get one is anybody's guess again.
36 AnimeMan77W : I believe that this is the first customer to threaten cancellation. If so, what if other airlines get the idea, causing a domino effect? After all tha
37 Flying-Tiger : No, they are not the first customer to voice their intention or at least a threat to cancel. At least Kenya Airways did the same several weeks ago.
38 parapente : A little bit of topic: Just noticed that this was your 787th post on A.net, what a coincidence! and how bored I am to notice that? I had never spotted
39 cerecl : There is a rumour that the order has indeed been cancelled and changed to 45 737s. Sorry this is incorrect. MU and FM both ordered 787 (MU:15 FM: 9) a
40 keesje : If so that would mean they passed on the 777 too.
41 Stitch : Overall this will be a higher-value order (both frames and ancillaries), so while not good news for the 787, it is good news for BCA as a whole. Cons
42 mrskyguy : And that's the silver lining for Boeing. Undoubtedly there's going to be disappointed customers (and already are), but on the other hand the 787 intr
43 Stitch : Well if you're going to wait 5 to 10 years for your 787-8, you might as well cancel your order and buy or lease an A330-200 now and fly it for a decad
44 PM : I have no idea where MU fly their A330s and I don't know how you define 'long-haul' but you are not including 15 x A330-300 - all recent models. More
45 Post contains images Stitch : Aircraft that can perform all B-Market missions are what I personally consider "long-haul", and the A330-300 cannot perform all such missions. Theref
46 PM : OK. For what it's worth, I also think the A350 will be an obvious 'fit' for MU. Not sure about the original 787 order. It was first announced as a si
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