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Aer Lingus To Code Share Additional UA Flights?  
User currently offlinea340crew From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6346 times:

I have a friend who was just hired as cabin crew for Aer Lingus based at IAD. He was told at the interview that early next year Aer Lingus will begin operating 2 additional flight out of IAD code sharing with UA using IAD based crews. They are currently hiring 2 classes of cabin crew members, they have one class that just started in November and one in January. Also they are hiring additional pursers. Any idea on what flights they might add out of IAD? I was thinking maybe bringing back IAD-DUB but am not sure that they would use the IAD american crews for this route. Any insight into this would be great.

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6142 times:

Quoting a340crew (Thread starter):
He was told at the interview that early next year Aer Lingus will begin operating 2 additional flight out of IAD code sharing with UA using IAD based crews.

If its true, I dont know where they will find the aircraft from, as there is only one spare 330 to operate ex IAD. Unless they operate 2 routes at less than daily frequencies

Quoting a340crew (Thread starter):
They are currently hiring 2 classes of cabin crew members, they have one class that just started in November and one in January. Also they are hiring additional pursers

There is a high turnover rate for crew in the IAD base, so I wouldnt see them hiring 2 classes as an indication of an expansion. And if they are expanding, they need more than 2 classes!


User currently offline30west From Brazil, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5942 times:

Don't hold your breath. The pilots are in contract talk's and scope is the number 1 issue on the agenda. IMHO the Aer Lingus deal in IAD will be negotiated away causing the deal to be cancelled, along with the replacement of the RJs over 69 seats over a period of time. The pilots won't sign a contract without it and that will mess up a lot of things from the single operating certificate all the way up to upsetting the wall street types that wanted the merger all along.

Just my 2 cents

30west


User currently offlinejamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

I am curious as to why there is such a high cabin crew attrition rate at IAD for EI. Does anyone have any insight into the reasons behind that?


United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5470 times:

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 3):
I am curious as to why there is such a high cabin crew attrition rate at IAD for EI. Does anyone have any insight into the reasons behind that?

Its hard to commute for crew as they cant jumpseat on other airlines, and some of the US legacies are recruiting so id say that may lead more to leave


User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Couple of months ago pass rode to MAD through IAD on EI. The flight left several hours late because a commuting flight attendant didn't make it to IAD. Was chatting with one of the FA's that was a former UA fa. She said they were being told the codeshare was in jeopardy due to poor performance by EI. One major factor was that the flight was being delayed almost daily due to lack of FA's. She said EI only staffed to minimum and had no ability to operate the flight if any one fa didn't show up. The high number of commuters were missing trips and getting fired making the problem of staffing even worse.

Must say the inflight service was mediocre compared to a regular UA transatlantic flight. Due to the light loads we did get First both ways the difference between UA F service and EI was significant. No lie flat seats, food and presentation were not great and service was just okay. Also the A330 looked tired inside.


User currently offline30west From Brazil, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

To add , also have been told by IAD managers the flight is still not profitable but as I said in a previous thread no one else had been able to make money on this route yet. IMHO this flight really was about seeing if it could get past the scope protections in the pilot contract in reality.

30west


User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting 30west (Reply 2):
. The pilots are in contract talk's and scope is the number 1 issue on the agenda.

Spot on statement. Talk to any mainline pilot and their number one concern is scope. With the combination of UA and CO, I see a scope clause along the more conservative lines of CO. It's bad enough seeing CRJ-900s being flown at regional carriers, but farming out international flying to a third party won't cut it with the pilots. I don't see this EI gig lasting long.

-Stab

[Edited 2010-11-30 08:36:36]


So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineAerLingusA330 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

There will be a new route from IAD. However, it will only be one. And it won't be DUB.


As for the flight attendant attrition issue, there is another thread that discussed all that but I haven't searched for it to put a link here. Keep in mind to take anything you hear from UA fa's with a grain of salt as there is high tension and dislike of EI by UA employees, especially fa's, because of the whole "outsourcing" arguement.



Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Maybe slightly off topic, but when I flew through IAD over Thanksgiving, there were two EI 330's sitting at remote stands. One appeared to have plastic covering one of the front doors. Does anyone know why they were there? I figured maybe one was overnighting or sitting as a spare, but the other one looked like it had gone tech or something the way it was covered up.


Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 745 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 5):
Due to the light loads we did get First both ways the difference between UA F service and EI was significant

Perhaps you have quoted yourself wrongly but this may be due to the fact EI dont operate F. They only operate Y and J. So if you were comparing the EI business product to UA first then you probably would be disappointed, but would be comparing apples to oranges



Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlinea340crew From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

For all the newly hired Aer Lingus fa's based at IAD they are now requiring you to live with in 150 miles drive of IAD, they are not accepting any flight attendants who plan to commute.

User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting vgnatl747 (Reply 9):
Maybe slightly off topic, but when I flew through IAD over Thanksgiving, there were two EI 330's sitting at remote stands. One appeared to have plastic covering one of the front doors. Does anyone know why they were there? I figured maybe one was overnighting or sitting as a spare, but the other one looked like it had gone tech or something the way it was covered up.

One of the planes was damaged. The Jetway operator forgot to turn on the auto lever and damaged the 2L door.

As for the turnover. It's not really as high as people say. EI just gave all F/A's a raise and increased the sector pay. Part of the problem is that EI operates the flight under EU rules and the FA's are on a salary. Some of the people that have left couldn't deal with the commute, or were frustrated about they way schedules were assigned to them. Since EI doesn't use a seniority system, there is no bidding for schedules.

There is a movement underway to get the TWU in there to represent the flight attendants and negotiate different work rules.


User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 10):
Perhaps you have quoted yourself wrongly but this may be due to the fact EI dont operate F. They only operate Y and J. So if you were comparing the EI business product to UA first then you probably would be disappointed, but would be comparing apples to oranges

Okay if you want to call it business that is fine. It still doesn't match the UA business product with the lie flat seats and service. The seats were not comfortable and the service was subpar. It was not on the same scale as a traditional UA flight of transatlantic service for F or Business. This leads me to a rant I have about the airlines that call subpar F class business class. If you don't offer an F product then how can you call the forward seating "non-first". It is the front of the plane, there isn't a middle tier so by default doesn't that make it "first" class? That play on words is really shady. Why not call it First class lite or something along those lines? You can move up from Business to First on these types of flights so where is the differential to the other carriers that offer F class?

Quoting a340crew (Reply 11):
For all the newly hired Aer Lingus fa's based at IAD they are now requiring you to live with in 150 miles drive of IAD, they are not accepting any flight attendants who plan to commute.

That is good to hear. I had heard rumors that the lack of crews showing up for their trips was causing some major waves at UA HQ. Reports from what Smisek has said at some of his meet the troops stops, is he didn't sign the EI deal and probably wouldn't have if it was up to him. I hope that this operation is soon put to rest. No hard feelings toward the EI folks but if we (UA) were in DUB doing their flying I am sure they would be none too happy either. How about each airline run its own flights for a change?


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4158 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
That is good to hear. I had heard rumors that the lack of crews showing up for their trips was causing some major waves at UA HQ. Reports from what Smisek has said at some of his meet the troops stops, is he didn't sign the EI deal and probably wouldn't have if it was up to him. I hope that this operation is soon put to rest. No hard feelings toward the EI folks but if we (UA) were in DUB doing their flying I am sure they would be none too happy either. How about each airline run its own flights for a change?

Sure, then lets stop all codeshares, all franchise agreements, all regional flying. That way, you will have to run your regional ops with a high cost base, thus destroying their profitibaility, or starving UA mainline of feed, thus putting your jobs in jeopardy...

Think about it...

By the way, Flightstats disputes your claims on punctuality of the Flight. At 79% OTP, it is perfectly acceptable.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
The seats were not comfortable and the service was subpar. It was not on the same scale as a traditional UA flight of transatlantic service for F or Business. This leads me to a rant I have about the airlines that call subpar F class business class. If you don't offer an F product then how can you call the forward seating "non-first". It is the front of the plane, there isn't a middle tier so by default doesn't that make it "first" class? That play on words is really shady

That rant borders on the ridiculous. What has position on the plane really got to with how the class in branded? EI dont offer first, along with most International airlines. Instead, they offer Business Class because their markets could not sustain F fares. Is it really that hard to understand?



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3814 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
No hard feelings toward the EI folks but if we (UA) were in DUB doing their flying I am sure they would be none too happy either. How about each airline run its own flights for a change?

Nothing stops UA from doing so. This is not just some code share flight. It's a joint venture. Cost are split 50/50 between UA and EI.
The product that EI offers is on par with UA or better in my opinion. I have flown UA in F and J and it is not anything to write home about. F class on a non reconfigured plane is dated and the service that is offered is less than CO does in their J class. UA's J class (in the non reconfigured panes) is really way below par of what CO is offering and hopefully with the merger, this is one of the upgrades the new UA does.
EI is telling it's employees that the service is making money for both EI and UA.... so who to believe, rumors from UA employees who do not like this arrangement or the CEO of EI (Mueller) who has stated to IAD employees that the product is profitable?


User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 745 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
This leads me to a rant I have about the airlines that call subpar F class business class. If you don't offer an F product then how can you call the forward seating "non-first". It is the front of the plane, there isn't a middle tier so by default doesn't that make it "first" class? That play on words is really shady. Why not call it First class lite or something along those lines?

There are loads of airlines who dont offer first and business; US, CO, SK, VS, IB etc. EI are just one of many. They dont market their "business class" as first, nor do they charge the same. You get what you pay for. Yes perhaps EI's business ("Premier class") isnt as good as UA J class, but they dont call it first, they dont charge for first and like an increasing number of airlines they have no demand for first. It remains to be seen if the new UA will have first as well as business or will they adopt the current CO Business First model, now there is a play on words.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
No hard feelings toward the EI folks but if we (UA) were in DUB doing their flying I am sure they would be none too happy either

Perhaps the fact you work for UA doesnt make you the most independent or impartial of people to post on an EI versus UA topic, no more so than an EI employee would be on an EI versus FR topic! That said, I dont agree with EI operating flights for UA or whatever way they phrase it. EI should just join Star and get ATI with UA if that is the route they want to go down



Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4158 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Quoting dutchflyboi (Reply 15):
so who to believe, rumors from UA employees who do not like this arrangement or the CEO of EI (Mueller) who has stated to IAD employees that the product is profitable?

Indeed. A few user names crop up from the UA side all the time, spreading rubbish about bad reliability and poor service. Its so predictable whenever this flight comes up on a.net



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 17):
A few user names crop up from the UA side all the time, spreading rubbish about bad reliability and poor service. Its so predictable whenever this flight comes up on a.net

I have flown the route a couple of times, in both Y and J class, and I found the service to be good. Crews very professional and friendly.
No I don't work for EI, I work for Delta. (just a friendly disclaimer)  


User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 14):
Sure, then lets stop all codeshares, all franchise agreements, all regional flying. That way, you will have to run your regional ops with a high cost base, thus destroying their profitibaility, or starving UA mainline of feed, thus putting your jobs in jeopardy...

Regional? If you believe IAD to MAD is a regional operation then we probably should stop our debate now. It is one thing to fly a 50 seater from IAD to RIC versus a codeshare of an A330 to MAD. So you wouldn't mind if UA opened a crew base in DUB and started flying long haul using the EI code?

I certainly don't believe EI is a major contributor to UA profits and would be quite happy to see those jobs at mainline UA. Again, nothing personal, just want MY fellow employees to enjoy employment versus you guys.

My own opinion is that anything with more than 50 seats should be a UA operated flight. If that ruffles your feathers then too bad. Also, my observation and opinion on EI service was just that an opinion and observation, not condemnation of all thing EI. That service level may be perfectly acceptable to most. I didn't care for it myself.


User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 19):
I certainly don't believe EI is a major contributor to UA profits and would be quite happy to see those jobs at mainline UA. Again, nothing personal, just want MY fellow employees to enjoy employment versus you guys.

This arrangement is not taking any current jobs away from UA employees. The pay is NOT lower that what UA pays it F/A's. This is a route that UA was not flying, when they did it was unprofitable... It's a global market, people need to get used to this. Same as any other joint venture that UA has with AC/CO/LH ...cost are shared between all parties... the parties decide who is flying to route... UA and EI decided to do this together as a joint venture.... nothing wrong with it. NO ONE at UA got displaced or lost their jobs due to this flight.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4158 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 19):
Regional? If you believe IAD to MAD is a regional operation then we probably should stop our debate now. It is one thing to fly a 50 seater from IAD to RIC versus a codeshare of an A330 to MAD. So you wouldn't mind if UA opened a crew base in DUB and started flying long haul using the EI code?

Stop selectively quoting! You said "how about each airline run its own flights for a change"? I drew the parallel that a huge number of UA flights are not operated by UA at all. If you fail to see the parallel, i suggest you withdraw from the argument!



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Quoting dutchflyboi (Reply 20):
NO ONE at UA got displaced or lost their jobs due to this flight.

Sorry but that is absolutely a false statement. We have pilots and fa's on furlough that would be flying this flight if it were in house. You say UA was unprofitable the last time they served MAD. Well that was many years ago under significantly different operation structure and cost.

You guys have yet to address the reonse from EI employees if this was the other way around.

Perhaps Smisek will end this operation. This is different than the Star partners that fly to their hubs from IAD. MAD is not an EI hub nor is EI a star member. If it isn't your job that is lost then I suppose you can justify this agreement. However there are 1,400 furloughed UA pilots that don't share your opinion, I would bet.


User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 21):
You said "how about each airline run its own flights for a change"?

We were discussing EI codeshare right?


User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 22):
Sorry but that is absolutely a false statement.

From what I have been told, there are NO Flight Attendants on involuntary furlough, but I could be wrong.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 23):
We were discussing EI codeshare right?

No we are not discussing a EI codeshare, we were discussing another flight to be operated by EI under a joint venture.... a joint venture is a complete different beast than a codeshare.
If UA wanted to operate the flight alone, why didn't they do it? They must have done studies and found out that this is the best way for them to make money. Airlines are in the business of making money. This way it is a win win for both companies.


25 mcdu : This was done by Tilton. The same guy that launched TED. Which Smisek callled a really bad idea at the employee town hall meetings. It doesn't matter
26 dutchflyboi : There is a big difference between the 2. As for job losses at UA due to 1 flight, I guess the problem with UA lies a lot deeper than this. The airlin
27 COEI2007 : Subsidize EI employees? The IAD base are on a different contract to Irish based crew. It's not just UA crew that are annoyed about this! The only hop
28 dutchflyboi : It's correct that they are working under different work rules than their counter parts in DUB, but so do the EI F/A based in LGW, same with other com
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