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Inconvenient AA Flights From JFK To HND  
User currently offlinemarkboston From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 74 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10798 times:

The AA flight from JFK to HND leaves at 6:10 pm and arrives at 10:15 pm. The return flight leaves HND at 6:40 am and arrives JFK at 5:15 am.

These flights do not allow for any same day connections at HND. The timing of the return flight requires you to get up painfully early (3 or 3:30 am).

Did the Japanese government dictate these departure and arrival times? They certainly make these flights less appealing.

It would be much better if the flight left JFK at around 11 am and the return flight left HND around 6 pm.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10783 times:

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
Did the Japanese government dictate these departure and arrival times?

Yes the new HND slots for international flights are restricted to overnight hours. Forget the exact times.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12434 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10746 times:

Yes, they are quite ridiculous times! The Japanese authorities have limited international operations to times between 10pm and 6.30-7am. I can't remember the exact times, but as you rightly point out, they are extremely limiting from the point of view of scheduling. However, that's the timing that has been allowed and that's what airlines must work with; annoying, but hopefully, in time, the timings will be improved - particularly as they have just opened a new international terminal.

User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10722 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Yes the new HND slots for international flights are restricted to overnight hours.

Check the timings for BA's forthcoming LHR-HND service (it starts next February) and you'll see its timings for the HND-LHR sector are also highly inconvenient.


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10305 times:

Despite the regulations I don't think it's that bad given the flight is mostly designed for pax to terminate in HND anyways. It does allow comfortable connections from NYC onto all of AA's network out of JFK which is what AA wants. For connections with JAL you have NRT and even then you end up taking the Shinkansen anyways which is more convenient for trips within Hokkaido.

And as to the 6.30am departure, for instance most long-hauls from India to Europe depart at weird overnight hours and it's been like that for years . With such a long flight where there is plenty of time to take a nap, I'm pretty sure leaving at 6.40 am is a minor issue for most passengers.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

I personally would not want to take the flights since they are jetlag inducing. A redeye flight followed by a sleepless night and a daylight flight followed by a tiresome day are pretty miserable.

Afternoon departures from the US at least allow a nap and some coherence on the other end to make it to dinner and a hotel while redeye flights back are great for sleeping.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinemarkboston From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10132 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 4):
For connections with JAL you have NRT and even then you end up taking the Shinkansen anyways which is more convenient for trips within Hokkaido

This often isn't true. One of the meetings that I have is in Kanazawa-- nearest airport KMQ. JAL doesn't fly KMQ-NRT, it does fly KMQ-HND. I could get a separate ticket on ANA which does do KMQ-NRT but its a lot of extra expense.

I took the shinkansen from Kanazawa to NRT once and it required two train changes and took 5 hours. The flight takes an hour.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
I personally would not want to take the flights since they are jetlag inducing

I agree!


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10063 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 4):
For connections with JAL you have NRT and even then you end up taking the Shinkansen anyways which is more convenient for trips within Hokkaido.

I'm sure you meant Honshu.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

Quoting markboston (Reply 6):
I took the shinkansen from Kanazawa to NRT once and it required two train changes and took 5 hours. The flight takes an hour.

Of course it doesn't suit everyone. I just tried to point out that, at least for Tokyo-bound passengers, the timings are not that bad.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 7):
I'm sure you meant Honshu.

Indeed, my bad.

In any case these restrictions will be lifted in time, if they want HND to work out as an int'l airport that is.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9893 times:

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
These flights do not allow for any same day connections at HND. The timing of the return flight requires you to get up painfully early (3 or 3:30 am).

Isn't HND primarily a O&D airport? I don't think connections are relevant in this case. No matter how you slice it, a NYC-Japan flight is always a pain and jetlag inducing. Short of taking a full day to rest after the flight, there's really no easy way to travel between the two points.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9788 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
Isn't HND primarily a O&D airport?

I'm not sure about that, but for international travelers it surely will be. Most of the people who would want to connect still have NRT as an option. The post several above yours notwithstanding, most major destinations in Japan are covered out of NRT.

Those who choose to fly into HND will be doing so with Tokyo as their destination, so the discussion of connections is mostly moot, unless you happen to be a business traveler with a destination that is served from HND but not NRT. I'm sure that situation is not all that common for AA's clientele.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
No matter how you slice it, a NYC-Japan flight is always a pain and jetlag inducing. Short of taking a full day to rest after the flight, there's really no easy way to travel between the two points.

I agree. No matter what you do, your schedule is going to be off by half a day. At least with a 6:10PM departure and a ~10PM arrival, you can just sleep a few winks on the plane and then get a full nights' sleep once you get to your destination. Then you'll hopefully be mostly okay the next day, except for your internal clock trying to put you back to bed at noon or 1PM, which is always my problem for a week or more after going back and forth between Japan and the US.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8339 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9587 times:
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In its wise Asian wisdom The Japanesse government decided to screw it to Haneda international flights. Those hours are 2200-0700. I will stick to Narita.

User currently offlineAeroSafari From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined Nov 2010, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

I'd love to test this new route out regardless of time.

Anyone know the aircraft type and the seat pitch for the route?



Just remember, the sweet is never as sweet without the sour
User currently offlineadxmatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

I personally would prefer a midnight departure and an 11pm arrival at JFK... You also get a full day in Japan and a relaxed dinner before heading to the airport and on the JFK side you get a few hours sleep and start the next day fresh.

I hate early AM arrivals.... hotel room not ready, etc.


User currently offlineRising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8797 times:

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
Did the Japanese government dictate these departure and arrival times? They certainly make these flights less appealing.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):

Yes the new HND slots for international flights are restricted to overnight hours. Forget the exact times.

Robert Crandall has some interesting thoughts on this issue. http://www.vimeo.com/6755346

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
These flights do not allow for any same day connections at HND. The timing of the return flight
requires you to get up painfully early (3 or 3:30 am).

I guess it's personal preference, this whole HND or NRT issue. When you think about it, NRT is only about 50min. from Tokyo if you take Narita Express. You can take a fast, comfortable train and be unloaded right at Tokyo Station, just minutes from many major hotels. HND is about a 30min away, if you take the Monorail, or you can take a bus or taxi and sit in traffic which could be even longer. So the savings in time, in perfect conditions, by using HND, is only about 20min. When you consider the arrival times, HND, at least in my opinion, is not as exciting as some airlines are making it.



If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8587 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
In its wise Asian wisdom The Japanesse government decided to screw it to Haneda international flights. Those hours are 2200-0700. I will stick to Narita.

That may be be to a certain extent, yes......but equally it must be appreciated that not all schedules are going to suit all travellers for a multitude of reasons. My own views on the subject, and always have been, are that passengers need to fit their schedule into that of the transportation method, not the other way around. If it has been done for a deliberate reason by the Japanese government then I largely applaud it and if it doesn't 'suit' some people then they can either re-arrange their schedule or find another route. I don't believe it will affect many passengers to any great extent as most will be flying solely to Tokyo in the first place.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8339 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7691 times:
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Quoting AirNZ (Reply 15):
That may be be to a certain extent, yes......but equally it must be appreciated that not all schedules are going to suit all travellers for a multitude of reasons. My own views on the subject, and always have been, are that passengers need to fit their schedule into that of the transportation method, not the other way around. If it has been done for a deliberate reason by the Japanese government then I largely applaud it and if it doesn't 'suit' some people then they can either re-arrange their schedule or find another route. I don't believe it will affect many passengers to any great extent as most will be flying solely to Tokyo in the first place.

The schedule of Haneda is almost the exact hours NRT is closed. So its delibrate in the times HND is open.


User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

It's always good to have various timing flights. If you prefer 11am JFK departure and leave 6pm from Tokyo, AA (still) offers JFK-NRT and you can take that. In fact all JFK-NRT flights leave within 2 hour window which limits options. AA's weird timing ORD-PEK (which is similar to JFK-HND) is working well because it appeals to some travelers... although AA tries to move to afternoon timing...

User currently offlineNYCAdvantage From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
These flights do not allow for any same day connections at HND. The timing of the return flight requires you to get up painfully early (3 or 3:30 am).

I thought that HND was more for O&D passengers, that wanted to be in the Heart of Tokyo, if you want to make a connection why pay the premium, fly to NRT and make the connection there. just my point of view, it will cost you less.


User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6925 times:

This flight is great if you need to work in NY all day and want to go straight to JFK at the end of the business day and fly home, say if you live in TYO. I think at least the JFK-HND leg will be much more popular than many people think.

Rumor has it that once HND has established itself by June, JFK-NRT will go to 4x weekly service since it will basically just end up feeding JL connections out of NRT, at least for the most part.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21569 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 4):
Despite the regulations I don't think it's that bad given the flight is mostly designed for pax to terminate in HND anyways. It does allow comfortable connections from NYC onto all of AA's network out of JFK which is what AA wants.

Why would AA use JFK for the flight if they wanted connections, when ORD is a far better choice? This flight is mostly about the NYC-TYO market.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
Isn't HND primarily a O&D airport?

Yes, but that's primarily because it's been forced to be by the Japanese government. There's no specific reason why it has to be.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6573 times:

Quoting markboston (Thread starter):
Did the Japanese government dictate these departure and arrival times?

Yep, pretty much. Same deal for all the American carriers who got slots, overnight hours only. With that going against them, I was kind of wondering why the slots were such a hot item, especially for AA which has been very conservative with route-planning lately. I suppose we'll see if this works or not.

OTOH,

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
The schedule of Haneda is almost the exact hours NRT is closed.

This schedule will be more convenient for some, so with a limited number of flights I suppose there might be the demand to fill them. Let the market decide, I say. If it doesn't work, I'm sure HA will gladly take more slots and fill the planes with Japanese tourists.

Quoting AeroSafari (Reply 12):
Anyone know the aircraft type and the seat pitch for the route?

It's a 772, isn't it? Regardless, if you're in coach, it's pretty crAAppy! I don't give a flip which airport I use, but I'll stick with Asian airlines when making the long trek across the Pacific. 13 hours in Y isn't so bad when there's 34'' pitch and decent AVOD, neither of which you'll get on any AA bird.


User currently offlinemarkboston From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5976 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
most major destinations in Japan are covered out of NRT.

Not true. JAL only serves 5 or 6 domestic destinations out of NRT compared with about 35 domestic destinations out of HND. You can switch to ANA or another domestic carrier but then you've got the hassles of extra check ins and expense.

Quoting Rising (Reply 14):
NRT is only about 50min. from Tokyo if you take Narita Express

That's true if you are have business in the very center of Tokyo. Most of my work in Tokyo is around Shinigawa (a major business district) and it can take two hours to get from your hotel to NRT versus 20 minutes to HND.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

Quoting markboston (Reply 22):
Not true. JAL only serves 5 or 6 domestic destinations out of NRT compared with about 35 domestic destinations out of HND.

And how many of AA's travelers to Tokyo do you expect would be flying on to, say, Takamatsu?

JAL flies the routes it does from NRT for a reason. They are the most common connecting destinations from Tokyo. I said "most major destinations", not "all destinations". Your situation is going to be pretty rare for an AA traveler. Hell, it's rare for a JAL traveler, or JAL would fly to more destinations out of NRT for its own customers too.

[Edited 2010-12-01 12:06:46]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

Nothing wrong with the 6:10 departure, 10:15 pm arrival. The usual mid-day east coast departure, late afternoon/early evening arrival means you lose two calendar days flying to Japan. It really bugs me saying good-bye to my family on Saturday morning so that I can make it to a Monday morning meeting in Tokyo.

On the return, I do prefer the traditional flight window. You wrap things in Tokyo around lunch on Friday and get home late Friday night.


25 Post contains links markboston : Here's a link that allows you to see the differences between JAL's domestic routes out of HND and NRT: http://www.jal.co.jp/en/dom_network/ When AA a
26 MAH4546 : Nartia slots cannot be parked - it is use it or lose it. And the slots cannot be sold either, nor can they be used by a partner airline. I doubt AA w
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