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Finnair Attempts To Take Off From Taxiway In HK!  
User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 26430 times:

Another piece of news concerning Finnair. They were lucky!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...finnair-a340-taxiway-take-off.html

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 26386 times:

Seriously, how can one mistake a taxiway for the runway? Didn't they know about piano keys and those yellow signs?

Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG, one of the most modern airports on the planet. Pilots need a good explanation.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26321 times:

This happened previously, to a Hong Kong Airlines 737 (although not sure if it was on the same runway - or taxiway!). Looking at a map of the airport, it looks like there are two taxiways parallel to 07L.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...LL_en-GB&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl


User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26172 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG

Third world airstrips are lucky to even have a parallel taxiway. HKG has dual parallel taxiway's 200 feet wide.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineplanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26055 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG, one of the most modern airports on the planet. Pilots need a good explanation.

Things like this cannot happen at some 3rd-world airstrip. It is not excusable to be occuring anywhere in the world and in this day and age should not be happening.

Whilst I appreciate mistakes happen, this kind of mistake is easily avoidable when you have two sets of eyes for reference and numerous visual indicators, regardless if it is day or night.


User currently offlinepilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 25975 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG, one of the most modern airports on the planet. Pilots need a good explanation.

As someone who investigates accidents and incidents on a professional level, I can't tell you how wrong you are...

Generalizations about anything in aviation will lead to disaster and impede the investigations....

1. The location of an airport, be it third world, island or wastern world has nothing to do with the decisions made on a cockpit, nor with the awareness level of a human being...humans are the same anywhere...

2. The conditions of weather, time of day, crew fatigue or distractions are unknown to us, to you it may be hong kong, to them it may be an unfamiliar airport, while something was transmitted to them from the radio or the cabin crew came in to rush some information before departure...we don't care where an incident occurs, we care about the people invovlved, not the airport so much...why did those people make this mistake...a look must be taken at the system, the user or the design of the system itself...

there are numerous incidents of US aircraft taking off and landing at US airports on taxiways, hardly a third world country. Pilots don't need a good explanation at all, they didn't go to HKG to make this mistake on their way back, you sound like you favor them to be punished for what they did...that doesn't stop the next incident, nor does it win these pilots back into the system...pilots arent error free robots.



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 822 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25662 times:

This does happen. BA had a similar incident not too long ago at (I think) ANU.

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 25317 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG, one of the most modern airports on the planet. Pilots need a good explanation.

Same thing happened last year to a KLM B737 crew ... in AMS !


User currently offlineokay From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 25152 times:

FFlyer is having a field day with AY again  

There will be a official investigation by the airport authorities, one should wait for that before drawing any conclusions.

okAY


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21861 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 25103 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
Looking at a map of the airport, it looks like there are two taxiways parallel to 07L.

Which is a fairly common setup at large airports.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 5):
Looking at a map of the airport, it looks like there are two taxiways parallel to 07L.

Can't say it any better than this, especially the part about the pilots not going to HKG to make the mistake on the way back. Calling for blood here is very premature.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineskygirl1990 From New Zealand, joined Jun 2010, 123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24427 times:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this happened more than once at AMS (taking off or landing on a taxiway)?


x Jessie x
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 23911 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 6):
This does happen. BA had a similar incident not too long ago at (I think) ANU.

SKB I believe. They didn't take off on the taxiway, they took the wrong taxiway so lined up short on the runway, then took off......good thing they were only going about 50 miles to ANU with a light load!

Remember DL landed on a taxiway....In fact I think more incidents happen in the first world where there is a higher cockpit work load.....



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineKHPN From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 23049 times:

Quoting skygirl1990 (Reply 11):
Remember DL landed on a taxiway....In fact I think more incidents happen in the first world where there is a higher cockpit work load.....

DL Flight Lands On Taxiway At ATL? (by FlyPNS1 Oct 20 2009 in Civil Aviation)


one of the first things pilots are taught is to get all you're landing calculations and checklists and all that good stuff done while at cruise. this allows you to focus on following ATC and landing the plane safely during descent which is the most demanding part of a flight


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11701 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22596 times:

Quoting okay (Reply 9):
one should wait for that before drawing any conclusions

The best possible advice for any armchair investigator on this site to take, yet I doubt it'll make any impact on calls for blood or rampant speculation.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 5):
Generalizations about anything in aviation will lead to disaster and impede the investigations....

  


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinekurbitur From Iceland, joined May 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20819 times:

If this is the pilot´s mistake, than he must be human.... which is nice to know as a passenger, right?

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20719 times:

China Airlines did it in anchorage as well...

http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/accident_list_2.asp?accident_no=126


User currently offlineIBOAviator From Canada, joined Sep 2010, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18238 times:

Pilot Error -- Is there a solution for it? NO! Can you minimize it? YES!

It doesn't matter how much they are paid or how much experience they have, everyone is prone to mistakes. This has been clearly proven throughout this thread. You guys have shown more times than not that this sort of incident has happened to more than one airline, at more than one airport in the history of aviation. Pilots will continue to make mistakes (not intentionally) but by accident of course.

I don't think better training or a higher pay check will fix this problem. I don't think more eyes on the flight deck will fix this problem. I don't think that a revision of procedures (for example -- ensuring your on the damn runway before advancing the throttles) will fix this problem... BUT at the very least, the frequency of this problem can be reduced by better training, and revised procedures.

Cheers



Keep Calm and Go Around!
User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1875 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15600 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I had to delete some posts because they became very argumentative and degrading to others. Let's all try to play nice. Please debate the technical merits of this incident and not each other. Thank you!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 15374 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I hope that the proper investigation can share some light in to this.


Flying high and low
User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14089 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Seriously, how can one mistake a taxiway for the runway? Didn't they know about piano keys and those yellow signs?

This happens from time to time in certain light conditions when centreline lights can not be seen clearly. It is also a risk at airport with very wide taxiways. If you take off routinely day in and day out and gets bored those things happen even with very very experienced crews. All precautions are made to avoid this but sometimes it happens anyway. It is extra riskful at airports with two parallell taxiways beside a runway. Airplanes use the inner taxiway and line up and make a rolling take off on the outer... To bad if you are in a hurry and ATC does something else than look at the plane all the time. This has happened at GOT and OSL... Also planes nowadays often take off at intersections where you do not see all visual references like pianokeys, numbering etc...

But then again this is very very rare but when it happens it could be with you absolutely most experienced crew...



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6925 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11352 times:

Electronic flight bags with gps can help here, maybe in the future there could be an alarm if you're not on a runway when applying take-off power ?

Or even on the right runway and at the right point on it, remember some crashes happened when crews took off from runways, but with not enough length.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10980 times:

An Aeroflot Airbus A320 took off this year from a taxiway at OSL.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0-takes-off-from-oslo-taxiway.html
So much for third world countries.
As Piloaydin mentioned, humans do human mistakes everywhere.
Whom of us has never taken a wrong turn on the road? I agree it may look more serious at airports, but still...


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10908 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Things like this can happen at some 3rd-world airstrip, but not in HKG, one of the most modern airports on the planet. Pilots need a good explanation.
Quoting skygirl1990 (Reply 10):
Please correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this happened more than once at AMS (taking off or landing on a taxiway)?

Yeah, happened twice at AMS recently, a KLM 737 and an Aeroflot A320, I think? Ryanair had an incident where a 737 landed on a taxiway, too (although, to be fair, it was a closed runway, being used as a taxiway.)



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10740 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):
Ryanair had an incident where a 737 landed on a taxiway, too (although, to be fair, it was a closed runway, being used as a taxiway.)


In 2006, an Eirjet ac (Ryanair flight) managed also to land on the wrong airport in Ireland (unwillingly).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...r/30/theairlineindustry.travelnews
Which prompted some tabloids to write about "Ryanwhere".


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11701 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10497 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Or even on the right runway and at the right point on it, remember some crashes happened when crews took off from runways, but with not enough length.

And some lucky escapes. Again, just this year, a BA 777 took off from the wrong intersection of a runway and luckily managed to get airborne in about 900m:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...off-from-wrong-runway-2068163.html


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
25 LH7879 : Thank you very much for your explanations!
26 Gonzalo : Glad to see someone with enough knowledge to talk about this incident. Things like this are common, even pilots familiarized with the airport can do
27 etherealsky : What's surprising is the fact that neither crew member caught the error. Out of curiosity, what is the typical takeoff procedure for PF & PNF in t
28 RubberJungle : I've heard that there were three crew members up front.
29 Navigator : Those things should not happen but on rare occasions they do. There could be a number of contributing factors leading up to this and it is a complex
30 GolfBravoRomeo : Why don't more airlines install something like Honeywell's Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS). I believe ideally the system would have announ
31 Navigator : I doubt you find better trained crews than at Finnair. They are the absolute best out there with a very high professional reputation. In the end of t
32 Post contains images IBOAviator : Exactly!!! Pilot error CANNOT be eliminated. It happens to the best in the business! But isn't there something that can be done to (at the very least
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