GlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 601 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10823 times:
It appears that AA is not only interested in code share partners to the middle east (outside of RJ), but is seriously looking at starting service there in the next couple of years (in AA time, so that could be longer).
What routes, if any would AA try (and do well on)?
Unless AA works out an agreement with Israel (TW / AA issue), TLV will not be served.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7342 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10805 times:
The Middle East now means, Istanbul, Cairo, Dubai or Qatar. Dubai would be a great destination for AA, the others are well served by othe US airlines or national carriers.
AABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 448 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10721 times:
AA has the GCC semi-covered with RJ and BA to DXB, BAH-DOH and others (and to some extent the EY codeshare). The IT codeshare will also help out in the ISC and will hopefully allow for further connections for pax traveling AA ORD-DEL. However, I can't help but think an ORD/DFW-Middle East destination might make sense once AA receives their 787s. It's definitely a hole in the AA network.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31115 posts, RR: 74 Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10390 times:
Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter): Unless AA works out an agreement with Israel (TW / AA issue), TLV will not be served.
This A.net fiction about AA and Tel Aviv really needs to stop.
AA can fly to Tel Aviv very easily by writing a check. It's of such a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things, it will not stop AA from flying to Tel Aviv if AA sees a business case to fly there.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4978 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10313 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3): This A.net fiction about AA and Tel Aviv really needs to stop.
What he posted is not fiction. AA can serve TLV, but only if they work out their dispute with TW's former employees. That's all I see mentioned in the quoted text.
catiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2274 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10302 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1): The Middle East now means, Istanbul, Cairo, Dubai or Qatar. Dubai would be a great destination for AA, the others are well served by othe US airlines or national carriers.
By the rationale stated above, so is DXB with UA, DL, and Emirates. But having said that, I would start CAI or IST or AMM out of JFK before starting DXB. As the global financial crisis took hold, DXB was impacted more than most other cities given how leveraged they were on real estate and the debt from massive construction projects. The $10 billion rescue package from the UAE Central Bank certainly helped navigate them through that, but it would seem there's a lot of excess capacity in DXB right now.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31115 posts, RR: 74 Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10223 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
This A.net fiction about AA and Tel Aviv really needs to stop.
What he posted is not fiction. AA can serve TLV, but only if they work out their dispute with TW's former employees. That's all I see mentioned in the quoted text.
There's nothing to "work out." AA owes a measly sum of money. It writes the check, and its done. Same thing happened in Barranquilla, and when AA returned, it wrote the check. Simple as that.
klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9864 times:
Quoting catiii (Reply 5): Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
The Middle East now means, Istanbul, Cairo, Dubai or Qatar. Dubai would be a great destination for AA, the others are well served by othe US airlines or national carriers.
By the rationale stated above, so is DXB with UA, DL, and Emirates. But having said that, I would start CAI or IST or AMM out of JFK before starting DXB. As the global financial crisis took hold, DXB was impacted more than most other cities given how leveraged they were on real estate and the debt from massive construction projects. The $10 billion rescue package from the UAE Central Bank certainly helped navigate them through that, but it would seem there's a lot of excess capacity in DXB right now.
The Middle East is also Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait, Ankara, Abu Dhabi etc etc. But I digress, I agree with your point. DXB is already well served from the USA. US carriers have a small presence in DXB, while EK has an enormous presence in the USA-DXB market, and they have recently boosted it again. And the point about the financial meltdown and DXB is a valid one. I agree DXB is not the best new destination from the USA right now.
While DXB is a larger market, than my home airport, AUH, there is a similarity. They both have home carriers that cover the market very well.
But I do not agree with recommending the other destinations mentioned. CO is starting CAI service, with a 777, a lot of aircraft for the route. I think that these markets are not very large ones, and the service they currently have is adequate. They also have strong national carriers. I am sure there are matters of yield and seasonality of traffic as well as market size. There are greener pastures elsewhere.
Recall TW used to serve Riyadh via CAI. No US carrier took over service to Saudi.
And living in the middle east, there is some controversy brewing over whether Gulf airlines have unfair competitive advantages over other carriers. Another possible consideration.
chopchop767 From Italy, joined Aug 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9508 times:
I think AA would be well served by a route from MIA to the Middle East. Perhaps Jordan to feed into the hub there. I don't recall any Middle Eastern Carriers serving MIA. Moreover, MIA could serve as a convenient connection for those originating practically anywhere in the country as they wouldn't have to 'back track'. I would suggest JFK, but with the code shares and all of the competition, I think AA could getter a better bang for the buck out of MIA.
Unfortunately though, despite what I would imagine to be impressive yields and as mentioned, the whole in AA's network, this seems to be an issue of aircraft availability. I'm fairly certain that AA would need a 777 for the route and most of those seem to be profitably serving South America. Perhaps they could swap out a 767 to LHR and get that 777.
brightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1271 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9481 times:
A bold move would be to push the administration to suspend their embargo for them to run a JFK-BEY or DFW-BEY service. There is defnitely a market between Lebanon and the US and it will be an advantage to be the first one in. Now AA being a member of oneworld they may look at AMM before anything else in the region. The rest is indeed well covered by local airlines and by US competitors already.
Seeing the game of alliances, DL (Skyteam, AF, ME) may actually be the first US carriers to land wheels in BEY.
Hmmm, now that would be a bold choice, and as you mentioned, one with no competition for direct service. What a great choice too, I've always wanted to visit.
AA seems to be so conservative with routing, I can't really see them trying something so bold. Then again, I didn't think they would ever start the ORD to Delhi service, so one never knows!
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7342 posts, RR: 7 Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8922 times:
The two logical cities for an AA flight to the Middle East are JFK and ORD. With all the current service from JFK, Chicago is better for AA with its strength there. TLV and Cairo are well served from various US destinations, a persian gulf destination like Dubai seems the logical city for flying too. AN ORD to DUBAI flight would be logical for AA.
divemaster08 From Cayman Islands, joined Jul 2008, 292 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8804 times:
I know that EL AL use to fly MIA-TLV but havent seen their B762 for a while, would think that AA should maybe look at starting a couple Middle Eastern Routes from MIA as they would have no competitor directly from MIA. However i guess demand and range may be an issue.....
AA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8708 times:
Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter): It appears that AA is not only interested in code share partners to the middle east (outside of RJ), but is seriously looking at starting service there in the next couple of years (in AA time, so that could be longer).
bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5975 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8677 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): There's nothing to "work out." AA owes a measly sum of money. It writes the check, and its done. Same thing happened in Barranquilla, and when AA returned, it wrote the check. Simple as that.
What was the amount of the check to Barranquilla and what is the amount due to Israel for the ability to return?
FXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7023 posts, RR: 93 Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7729 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3): AA can fly to Tel Aviv very easily by writing a check. It's of such a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things, it will not stop AA from flying to Tel Aviv if AA sees a business case to fly there.
I guess their revenue guys prefer to see CO and EWR cash the checks. Bizarre why they won't write the check and start JFK-TLV/DXB.
luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1583 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7638 times:
Quoting FXramper (Reply 15): I guess their revenue guys prefer to see CO and EWR cash the checks. Bizarre why they won't write the check and start JFK-TLV/DXB.
AA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2467 posts, RR: 31 Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7614 times:
I wish AA (or any Major US Carrier) would fly to BEY. I could imagine DL being successful with it - as they could use DTW. Carriers like AF would actually lose a ton of revenue on those flights from pax who come from the states..... would be a very good opportunity.
7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 632 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7392 times:
Quoting luckyone (Reply 16):
What does Continental have to do with American??
He was pointing out that as long as AA stays out of the market at JFK, Continental is cashing in at EWR. The two airports are 30 miles apart and compete for the same traffic.
Sadly AA did not keep TWA's small presence. Tel Aviv, Kuwait, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Amman were all served either direct or through a Code-share.
EricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1449 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7305 times:
I would be shocked if AA served the Middle East any time soon. I think their immediate international focus will be in Asia. The Middle East is too exotic for AA's conservative nature in my opinion.
Quoting brightcedars (Reply 9): A bold move would be to push the administration to suspend their embargo for them to run a JFK-BEY or DFW-BEY service
What embargo are you referring to? I did not realize the USA had an embargo on Lebanon.
I always thought that BEY would be a great location for a U.S. based carrier to serve, and was surprised no U.S. carrier looked at BEY as an option.
Yeah...long story my friend...I wouldn't necessarily call it an embargo, it sounds too strict lol, but the US has set up restrictions to where US based airlines can fly, and BEY is on the list. I believe it dates back to the Civil War in Lebanon. I know that they got rid of the restriction in the 90s, but after a year or so, the restriction was put back into effect. They also will not allow ME to fly that route. It's obviously a security issue, but IMO it doesn't make any sense since we have US airlines flying to AMM, KWI, CAI, and DXB, and some other African cities, all with the same kind of security threat essentially.
I always thought that a JFK-BEY would be perfect, especially if DL flew that route. Maybe even out of DTW because of the large Lebanese population in the Dearborn area.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6515 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7078 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3): This A.net fiction about AA and Tel Aviv really needs to stop.
AA can fly to Tel Aviv very easily by writing a check. It's of such a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things, it will not stop AA from flying to Tel Aviv if AA sees a business case to fly there.
I don't see what he said as a myth. You owe a man money. Before you can continue doing business you have to pay the guy right. Isn't that "working things out". It's petty and they need to pay up. A large carrier like AA being absent in TLV is crazy.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 16): What does Continental have to do with American??
The fact that Continental is profiting and AA continues to sit idly by as usual. Let's not forget DL's daily TLV-JFK on the 744. Talk is that they want to see the 744 in ATL as well year round at some point.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5975 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7064 times:
Quoting AA777 (Reply 17): I could imagine DL being successful with it - as they could use DTW. Carriers like AF would actually lose a ton of revenue on those flights from pax who come from the states..... would be a very good opportunity.
If Delta started DTW-BEY or JFK-BEY it would be a joint venture flight with AF so I believe that AF would gain revenue.
I don't think it would be a joint-venture, would it? It's a flight from the US to the Middle East without a stop in CDG. I think what what AA777 meant is that a lot of passengers traveling from the US have to stop in CDG, since AF and ME offer about 4 or 5 flights a day to BEY throughout the day, which is perfect for people arriving on an overnight flight from the US. If DL had a flight from JFK to BEY, then they will code share with DL, maybe, but I don't see how AF will gain revenue if many passengers will simply connect in JFK rather than CDG to catch their flight to BEY. For example, instead of flying my typical route LAX-CDG-BEY with AF, I can simply fly LAX-JFK-BEY with DL. It would be better for me, because now I won't have to deal with transferring in CDG (customs, etc). And plus, AF are on strike half the freaking time. The last two times I flew with them, I got stuck in CDG.
LH could also lose some business.
25 NYC-air: IST - Economy is booming in spite of the recession. The two airlines with US->IST nonstops are DL (SkyTeam) and TK (Star). So, I'd think a OneWorld
26 FutureUScapt: DL serves DXB as well. Perhaps you were thinking of KWI?
27 Rising: In some markets, perhaps they are more interested in being right, rather than first.
28 SESGDL: DL serves DXB daily from ATL with the 77L. Statements like these are far too common on a.net. If AA thought it would be a cash cow to Israel then it
29 SESGDL: If right translates into "least profitable," then yes, AA is right. Jeremy
33 VictorKilo: If AA serves the Middle East, my guess is that it only serves routes less than 12 hours long to avoid union issues related to longer range flying. Tha
34 MAH4546: In other words, I'm not going to spend time searching articles on LexisNexis or Google for information that is otherwise publicly available.
35 tommy212: "In addition, American reviewed Israeli employment law and TWA's severance obligations to its employees," the written response added. "If American beg
36 SESGDL: No I don't, but it's rather self explanatory: airlines go where they think they can make the most money. Because AA's not in TLV, yet is expanding to
37 timberwolf24: The following was posed on a thread in 2001 according to this it is 13 million that AA owes... TEL AVIV, March 29 2001(Reuters) - Trans World Airlines
38 SESGDL: I had no idea it was that much. That pretty much settles it then, no AA in TLV anytime soon. Jeremy
39 bobnwa: You are right, it is a very over worked term here on A net, and I cannot remember a single instance where it has ever been backed up with numbers. Ne
40 MAH4546: No, it doesn't settle anything, because even the high-end of $18M is a very paltry sum in the grand scheme of things. If AA sees a market case for Te
41 tommy212: exactly, a similar situation applied to continental and heathrow, they paid $209million for 4 pairs of heathrow slots, if continental didnt think the
42 SESGDL: I don't think so. For a carrier that can only make a profit one quarter of the year, $18M is not a paltry sum in the grand scheme of things. Given th
43 MAH4546: AA has no codeshare service to Israel whatsoever. It does have an agreement with El Al that currently does not all the AA* code on LY* flights due to
44 DFWEagle: It doesn't settle anything. The article says IF American had started the TWA service to Tel Aviv and later discontinued it, then it may be expected t
45 FlyASAGuy2005: Look at the two markets you've listed. What a/c type does AA plan on serving to HEL and BUD? Most certainly not the T7 which would be the only a/c th
46 luckyone: Delta and El Al both have used the 767 out of Tel Aviv to the states fairly recently.
47 ordjoe: BEY, interesting city, but I do not see that making money, too much VFR or tourism traffic. AF/DL could see pulling a JV. In all honesty, except for T
48 HiJazzey: AA is more than welcome to fly to JED
49 777way: Besides TLV American also gained Cairo and Riyadh from TWA.
50 FlyASAGuy2005: This is true but speaking only for DL as I know nothing about Al's operations; for all intense purposes, TLV was a T7 station (now the 744 added into
51 SESGDL: Sorry, let's add to that, AA's expanding with new service to HND and PVG this year, both with 777s. Same rule applies to the aforementioned, AA simpl
52 klwright69: Well said... On Point. Muscat is also an interesting middle eastern city. We won't see AA there in my lifetime however. I always use AA codeshare fly
53 SESGDL: Will all due respect, I completely disagree here. If you don't think the threat of terrorism or lack of security is an issue simply look at the issue
54 EricR: Yes, but this is an alarming trend that we see with AA that does not exist to the same degree as it does with other U.S. based carriers. Instead of c
56 GlobalCabotage: I'm not sure what AA paid to go back to BAQ, but it coulnd't have been much given AA's lackluster performance and departure from there. TLV must have
57 LAXtoATL: Remember that EY serves ORD. While it is not DXB, AUH and DXB are less than 100 miles apart and EY offers car service to and from DXB for business an
58 MAH4546: It is a paltry sum. It's less than what a pair of Heathrow slots costs AA to add more DFW-LHR service. If AA sees a case, it will pay whatever platry
59 klwright69: AA absolutely does codeshare with EY on ORD flights. DXB is less than 100 miles from AUH. AUH airport is outside of the city, on the highway to Dubai
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