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Pan Am 727 Routes In The 60s And 70s  
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 835 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10177 times:
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Besides the IGS and Europe, I am curious to know if Pan Am flew their 727-21s on any other runs in the 60s and 70s?

I do recall reading in a post some time ago that some were used on MAC charters out of SGN during the Vietnam war. Also that a few were leased to Air Vietnam. Can't seem to find that post. Can anyone confirm?

Thanks!

Tomas SJC


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6750 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10188 times:

I'll check, but the Caribbean is likely. I think they tried STT when it was a 4600 ft runway.

User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1855 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10004 times:

A brief list that I can recall...San Juan, St. Thomas, St. Croix, MIA, Rock Sound (Bahamas) and JFK

User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3730 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9902 times:
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I don't think that before the deregulation in 1978 Pan Am was allowed to have domestic flights. So I would think they were mostly flown out of LHR and FRA on routes within Europe, and in the US only out of JFK to the destinations mentioned above including San Juan, St Thomas, the Bahamas, Havana (not sure but that's where Pan Am commenced operations back in 1927), Bermuda, and out of MIA to the same destinations. If Pan Am ever flew a domestic flight before the deregulation, it would probably be JFK-MIA but with continuing service to one of those destinations. Pan Am was probably not allowed to sell seats on a JFK-MIA domestic flight.
In Europe, Pan Am was allowed to cross the East Germany / West Germany border, which Lufthansa wasn't allowed to do.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24663 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
and in the US only out of JFK to the destinations mentioned above including San Juan, St Thomas, the Bahamas, Havana
Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
I would think they were mostly flown out of LHR and FRA on routes within Europe, and in the US only out of JFK to the destinations mentioned above including San Juan, St Thomas, the Bahamas, Havana (not sure but that's where Pan Am commenced operations back in 1927), Bermuda, and out of MIA to the same destinations.

Didn't the US-Cuba trade embargo come into effect before Pan Am took delivery of their 727s? I think they were still operating DC-6B's MIA-HAV when schedule air service between the two countries ended. And I don't think Pan Am ever operated JFK (then IDL)-HAV nonstop. I think the only carriers with rights on that route before the embargo were Cubana and National.


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9877 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
If Pan Am ever flew a domestic flight before the deregulation, it would probably be JFK-MIA but with continuing service to one of those destinations. Pan Am was probably not allowed to sell seats on a JFK-MIA domestic flight.

Pan Am flew quite a few US domestic flights prior to deregulation, but were in fact not allowed to sell them as domestic flights or sell any seats on a domestic portion of a flight.

Pan Am usually offered different flights under the same flight number. One flight might have had several stopovers and some of the legs might have been domestic. But these flights were all tag-ons to the international portion of the flight and could only be sold as international flights with no local traffic. But Pan Am always - even before 1978 - operated domestic flights - only without traffic rights.
For instance they always operated on the JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX route as part of their round-the-world flights number PA1/PA2. Only that no local traffic was allowed on the JFK-SFO/LX legs of the flights.

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24663 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9866 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 5):
For instance they always operated on the JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX route as part of their round-the-world flights number PA1/PA2.

Originally PA had no JFK-SFO service. PA1/PA2 originated at JFK and terminated at SFO and vice versa. The only way you could fly entirely around the world on PA in the 1960s/70s was using PA's nonstop SFO/LAX-LHR service, or by connecting HNL-SEA and then SEA-LHR.


User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2222 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9853 times:
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I'm pretty sure I took a Pan Am 707 MSP-DTW in the 60s / early 70s but as a quarter fare employee rate. I'd been told rev pax couldn't not have done that. My connection was delayed that would have been on the tickted North Central. Anyway, I know they flew that. I'd also been on the mentioned SJU/MIA and STS/MIA 727s.


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlinedennys From France, joined May 2001, 847 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9819 times:

I just remember FRA-TXL sector

User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9742 times:

Were Pan Am 707's common in MSP?

User currently onlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9510 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Originally PA had no JFK-SFO service. PA1/PA2 originated at JFK and terminated at SFO and vice versa. The only way you could fly entirely around the world on PA in the 1960s/70s was using PA's nonstop SFO/LAX-LHR service, or by connecting HNL-SEA and then SEA-LHR.

Or south on PA515 SFO-LAX-GUA-PTY-CCS/GIG/EZE and then to MIA or JFK  

PA515

[Edited 2010-12-05 05:13:08]

User currently onlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Thread starter):
Besides the IGS and Europe, I am curious to know if Pan Am flew their 727-21s on any other runs in the 60s and 70s?

I do recall reading in a post some time ago that some were used on MAC charters out of SGN during the Vietnam war. Also that a few were leased to Air Vietnam. Can't seem to find that post. Can anyone confirm?


Pan Am's 727-21's were also used on scheduled services to the Caribbean.

The 'Pictorial History of Pan American Airways' by P.St.John Turner (1973) has a picture of N324PA at SGN prior to departing on an 'R&R' flight to TYO. It also mentions N388PA and N389PA being sold to Air Vietnam.

Pan Am had 27 727-21's:

N314PA 'Jet Clipper Sam Houston' c/n 18992 del. 18/12/65
N315PA 'Jet Clipper White Falcon' c/n 18993 del. 14/01/66
N316PA 'Jet Clipper Buena Vista' c/n 18994 del. 15/01/66
N317PA 'Jet Clipper De Soto' c/n 18995 del. 20/01/66 (W/O East Berlin 15/11/66)
N318PA 'Jet Clipper Inca' c/n 18996 del. 19/02/66
N319PA 'Jet Clipper Ponce de Leon' c/n 18997 del. 28/02/66
N320PA 'Jet Clipper Berlin' c/n 18998 del. 12/03/66
N321PA 'Jet Clipper Koln-Bonn' c/n 18999 del. 16/03/66
N323PA 'Jet Clipper Frankfurt' c/n 19005 del. 28/04/66
N324PA 'Jet Clipper Munchen' c/n 19006 del. 04/05/66
N325PA 'Jet Clipper Dusseldorf' c/n 19007 del. 19/05/66
N326PA 'Jet Clipper Nuremburg' c/n 19035 del. 27/05/66
N327PA 'Jet Clipper Hanover' c/n 19036 del. 25/06/66
N328PA 'Jet Clipper Hamburg' c/n 19037 del. 22/06/66
N329PA 'Jet Clipper Lightfoot' c/n 19038 del. 29/06/66
N339PA 'Jet Clipper Stuttgart' c/n 19134 del. 21/07/66 (QC)
N340PA 'Jet Clipper Talisman' c/n 19135 del. 01/09/66 (QC)
N341PA 'Jet Clipper Plymouth Rock' c/n 19136 del. 27/09/66 (QC)
N342PA 'Jet Clipper Golden Age' c/n 19137 del. 07/10/66 (QC)
N355PA 'Jet Clipper Andrew Jackson' (later Nurnberg) c/n 19257 del. 17/03/67
N356PA 'Jet Clipper Belle of the Sky' c/n 19258 del. 13/04/67
N357PA 'Jet Clipper Betsy Ross' c/n 19259 del. 10/05/67
N358PA 'Jet Clipper David Crockett' c/n 19260 del. 20/05/67
N359PA 'Jet Clipper Unity' c/n 19261 del. 17/06/67
N360PA 'Jet Clipper Golden Rule' c/n 19262 del. 28/06/67
N388PA 'Jet Clipper Ganges' c/n 19818 del. 29/09/67 (C, sold to VN 04/01/68)
N389PA 'Jet Clipper Golden Light' c/n 19819 del. 16/01/68 (C, sold to VN 23/01/68)

PA515


User currently offlineAncientPelican From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8657 times:

My first jet flight ever was N358PA, Clipper David Crockett flown JFK/STT in August 1968. I recall the flight was delayed several hours, arriving at almost midnight. The pilot made a very solid landing, no doubt because of the short runway!

User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8223 times:
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Quoting PA515 (Reply 11):
The 'Pictorial History of Pan American Airways' by P.St.John Turner (1973) has a picture of N324PA at SGN prior to departing on an 'R&R' flight to TYO. It also mentions N388PA and N389PA being sold to Air Vietnam.

PA515....thanks! I just found a photo of former "Clipper Golden Light" at MNL in the book "Skyliners 3" in Air Vietnam colors. (well, clearly a PA cheatline, white tail with a small Vietnamese flag)

Thanks for posting the list of 727-21 Clipper names btw.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):
A brief list that I can recall...San Juan, St. Thomas, St. Croix, MIA, Rock Sound (Bahamas) and JFK

Of course, how could I forget the Caribbean! I wonder when was the last time Rock Sound saw jet service?

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8727 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7927 times:
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Quoting PA515 (Reply 11):
Pan Am's 727-21's were also used on scheduled services to the Caribbean.

Pan Am also used the 727s on certain routes to México, Colombia and Central America; alongside certain Caribbean routes. PA's 727s used to fly MIA-BAQ-MAR, MIA-KIN-BAQ, MIA-KIN-POS, MIA-MBJ-KIN, MIA-FPO, MIA-KIN, MIA-NAS, MIA-SAP-MGA, MIA-PAP-SDQ-SJU, MIA-PTY, MIA-TPA-MEX, TPA-MIA-MID, MSY-MID, MSY-GUA-MGA, etc.


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7158 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Originally PA had no JFK-SFO service. PA1/PA2 originated at JFK and terminated at SFO and vice versa. The only way you could fly entirely around the world on PA in the 1960s/70s was using PA's nonstop SFO/LAX-LHR service, or by connecting HNL-SEA and then SEA-LHR.

Oh okay... I wasn't aware of that... I thought they flew JFK-SFO/LAX without traffic rights.

Thanx for the clarification.

Still it was only an example of how PA might have operated on U domestic routes without traffic rights.

But PA515 is just as good of an example, with one of the legs being SFO-LAX.

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlinewingsofman72 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7109 times:

PA had for many years at flight from JFK to MIA (503), which whas a 727-21 that fed the extensive Central and Northern South America connection bank at MIA (and went on to GUA).
While I was in College took this many times (as my dad was with PA at JFK and I went to school in MIA).
This was great and usually open (but full of non-revs), and much easier than a pass on EA/NA/NE (although I did use NA extensively)
Around 1970 or so it was upgraded to the 720B and some times a 707-321B.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1988 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6960 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Didn't the US-Cuba trade embargo come into effect before Pan Am took delivery of their 727s? I think they were still operating DC-6B's MIA-HAV when schedule air service between the two countries ended. And I don't think Pan Am ever operated JFK (then IDL)-HAV nonstop. I think the only carriers with rights on that route before the embargo were Cubana and National.

correcto mundo! Pan Am did fly those rescue flights to fly out, first the children, and later adults whom the Castro Government allowed to leave the island nation, and used DC-6B's and DC-7B/C's. Scheduled service between the US and Cuba stopped in 1961 around the time of the illfated Bay of Pigs invasion.

Prior to deregulation, the only "domestic" flight Pan Am was allowed to operate were between HNL and ITO to the West Coast, and to Alaska from SEA. I don't remember the Alaska flights using 727 equipment (I think they were all 707's to Annette Island and Fairbanks), and of course, the HNL flights didn't as the airplane did not have the range, but they were used throughout the Caribbean and on other Latin America routes by Pan Am and their delivery allowed Pan Am to retire their last four engine Douglas piston airliners.

After the acquisition of National, Pan Am flew 727's all over the USA out of JFK, IAD etc.


User currently offlinelychemsa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1149 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

One Zurich to Istanbul.
Also Paris to Tel Aviv.


User currently offlineb707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Originally PA had no JFK-SFO service. PA1/PA2 originated at JFK and terminated at SFO and vice versa. The only way you could fly entirely around the world on PA in the 1960s/70s was using PA's nonstop SFO/LAX-LHR service, or by connecting HNL-SEA and then SEA-LHR.

I flew JFK- STT-STX but I think that was early 80s on a very comfortable 727 (it was '85, i remember now).

Also, I remember as a kid that 1/2 did in fact fly trans con (60's i think) but no rights to carry traffic. Though I could be remembering it wrong I remember seeing the old board at JFK with SFO on it for 1 and LHR on it for 2 with aircraft for each and 1 would come in from LHR and 2, I thought, but maybe not, came in from SFO.


User currently offlineMrbrooks From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6343 times:

Quoting dennys (Reply 8):
I'm pretty sure I took a Pan Am 707 MSP-DTW in the 60s / early 70s but as a quarter fare employee rate. I'd been told rev pax couldn't not have done that. My connection was delayed that would have been on the tickted North Central. Anyway, I know they flew that. I'd also been on the mentioned SJU/MIA and STS/MIA 727s.
Quoting PA515 (Reply 10):
Jackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted Sun Dec 5 2010 03:45:33 your local time (15 hours 6 minutes 45 secs ago) and read 3375 times:

Were Pan Am 707's common in MSP?


No, Pan Am 707's were not common. As I recall the Pan Am MSP-DTW was a interchange flight with NWA. NWA crews flew the flight, a Pan Am 707 from MSP-DTW and then Pan Am crews flew the flight from DTW to Europe. I can't remember the destination. NWA had no service to Europe at the time.



Mrbrooks
User currently offlinebluemeatball From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6281 times:

I flew a 727 from JFK-STT in July of 1966 which was during the big strike by employees of several airlines. (Twas a very interesting routing from CRW to PSE: Lake Central from CRW to PIT via CKB, MGW, and Wheeling on a N262: AL F27 to EWR; 2 day layover in NYC; PA 727 to STT; Caribari 640 to SJU; CB 440 to PSE.)
I also flew twice on a 727 between SJU and MIA; never could get on flt 436 which was the MIA-SDQ-PAP-MIA.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1855 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 6218 times:

Tomassjc...From what I recall reading once, I believe Rock Sound was Juan Trippe's residence for many years. There was mention that the only reason Pan Am flew there, was to accommodate the requirement of the "boss". I am sure, there are many interesting stories related to this, that have faded away over the years.

User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2222 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6141 times:
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JACKBR

"Were Pan Am 707's common in MSP?"

Mrbrooks

Thanks for that that information on the interchange in MSP. I'd forgotten the NWA part and
couldn't figure out an NC/PA interchange. That particular 707 went on DTW-LHR

Also I now remember taking a PA 727 Merida-Miami. Not sure if that route had been mentioned yet. Where they used
elsewhere in Mexico not mentioned the the informative SCL767 reply 14? I know I used their 707 LAX-GUA-PanamaCity but wondered if PA may have used them elsewhere say LAX and more central american "milk runs" on multiple stops?



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6013 times:
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Quoting crownvic (Reply 22):
From what I recall reading once, I believe Rock Sound was Juan Trippe's residence for many years. There was mention that the only reason Pan Am flew there, was to accommodate the requirement of the "boss". I am sure, there are many interesting stories related to this, that have faded away over the years.

Interesting! I seem to recall Air Florida running 737s in Rock Sound for awhile. Wonder if this was when Acker ran QH and if there was some connection between Acker and Trippe in Rock Sound?



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
25 WA707atMSP : This was true until 1977. In 1977, PA was given DTW-BOS local traffic rights, on flights that originated / terminated in LHR. When PA was forced to d
26 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : NW 707 at LHR operating the PA/NW interchange service. View Large View MediumPhoto © Mick West
27 Jackbr : So, in that Northwest photo in LHR, the pilots would be Pan Am, the cabin crew would be Pan Am etc, just a NWA aircraft? It seems strange compared to
28 MSYtristar : I'm pretty sure these were flown with 707's...at least in the late 70's.
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