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Fifth Freedom Rights  
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 940 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 10918 times:

Sorry if this has been a topic but I could not find any posting on this. Is there a website that lists all of the global airlines fifth freedom routes? After reading several trip reports I was fascinated at all of the variations. As much global travel that I do as an airline consultant, I would love to take advantage of some of these. Seems like BKK-HKG may have the most offerings? I appreciate any comments. cheers!


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 12 months ago) and read 10863 times:
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ICAO used to have one, but they took it down years ago. A web archive search might uncover it.

[Edited 2010-12-04 18:16:46]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinedennys From France, joined May 2001, 895 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10475 times:

Fith freedom granted to LAN on CDG MAD 3 Times a week operated by A343

Fith freedom is also granted to Kuwait Airways from CDG to FCO 4 Times a week operated by A300-600R or A343 .

I was a fan of flying 5 th freedom when many 747s flew to Europe with intermediate stops
regards
dennys


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10456 times:

Quoting dennys (Reply 2):
Fith freedom granted to LAN on CDG MAD 3 Times a week operated by A343

Also on MAD-FRA-MAD 6x weekly, (A343) and AKL-SYD-AKL daily, (A343). LAN also has Fifth Freedom rights on JFK-YYZ-JFK 5x weekly (B763), MIA-BOG-MIA 3x weekly (B763), MIA-CCS-MIA 2x weekly (B763), MIA-PUJ-MIA 2x weekly (B763), etc.

[Edited 2010-12-05 11:08:39]

User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5764 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10340 times:

QF currently utilize the following 5th freedom rights:
SIN-LHR, 2 daily BKK-LHR, daily HKG-LHR daily/5 weekly, SIN-FRA daily & SIN-BOM 3 weekly.

There are many more 5th freedom rights in existence that are not currently used, particularly in Asia & Europe but also in the Pacific and North America.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25879 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 4):
QF currently utilize the following 5th freedom rights:
SIN-LHR, 2 daily BKK-LHR, daily HKG-LHR daily/5 weekly, SIN-FRA daily & SIN-BOM 3 weekly.

And daily AKL-LAX.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5764 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9968 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
And daily AKL-LAX.

Damm, how did I forget that one???

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

There are many examples of 5th freedom rights around the world. Some examples besides the ones shown above:

LHR-BKK with BR, AMS-BKK with CI and BR, LHR-HKG with NZ, HKG-SYD with VS, AMS-DXB with GA, LHR-LAX with NZ, FRA-JFK with SQ, MAN-MUC with SQ. And then there are the transatlantic flights ex-BRU with 9W. The list is endless ...


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9888 times:

What is 5th freedom, please?

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9863 times:

Quoting art (Reply 8):
What is 5th freedom, please?

The rights, under bilateral air services agreements, for an airline to pick up passengers between two ports neither of which are in it's home country.

based on your flag, I will try use a Lebanese example.

fifth freedom rights would be Thai Airways operating BKK-BEY-XXX v.v. and having the rights to sell tickets and pick up pax on the BEY-XXX sector (often without restrictions).

Examples of 5th freedoms in Australia (current and recently operated).

BI - BNE-AKL
EK - SYD- AKL
EK - SYD- CHC
EK - BNE-AKL
EK - MEL-AKL
LA - SYD-AKL
AR - SYD-AKL
CI - BNE-AKL
CZ - BNE-AKL (tbc)


User currently offlinekdonohue From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9752 times:

Vancouver used to have some good Fifth Freedom flights, but there are just a couple left. Cathay to New York and Philippine Airlines to Las Vegas

Previous Fifth Freedom flights from Vancouver included:

Phillipine Airlines - Newark
Japan Airlines - Mexico City
QANTAS - San Francisco
Singapore Airlines - Seoul
Malaysia Airlines - Taipei
Air Pacific - Honolulu

Can't think of any others, but I'm sure there are some.

Bangkok - Hong Kong have a good selection of carriers operating this route.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 9):
Quoting art (Reply 8):
What is 5th freedom, please?

The rights, under bilateral air services agreements, for an airline to pick up passengers between two ports neither of which are in it's home country.

Crystal clear. Thanks.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6847 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9707 times:

I had never thought of doing this. I just saw that I could fly one of my favorite A/C, the A340, for just 100€ return CDG-MAD on LAN ! Great way to discover a city I don't know and fly this bird for the first time in one package far less expensive than a long haul flight !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineinesilio From Italy, joined Sep 2009, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9620 times:

FCO-ARN is another that I've travelled on regularly with ET.

User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9482 times:

Probably one of the least-known Fifth Freedom routes was (still is?) Air Tahiti Nui on the LAX-CDG-LAX legs of their PPT-CDG-PPT flights. Equipment was originally an A340-200, later an A340-300.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7253 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

Along with the LAN flights at MIA Air France fly's MIA-PAP daily and will soon fly MIA-SDQ weekly. Also Insel has MIA-SXM



AC has EZE-SCL
GOL has EZE-SCL
American does EZE-MVD

At JFK:
Jet Airways does JFK-BRU
Kuwait does JFK-LHR
Cathy does JFK-YVR
Singapore does JFK-FRA
SA does JFK-Dakar
At Nassau BA does NAS-Grand Cayman and NAS-Providenciales

At NRT Delta goes to:
Bangkok-Suvarnabhumi, Beijing-Capital, Busan, Hong KongKoror, Manila, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Seoul-Incheon, Shanghai-Pudong, Singapore, Taipei-Taoyuan

United at NRT has:
Bangkok-Suvarnabhumi, Seoul-Incheon, Singapore, Taipei-Taoyuan and Beijing.

[Edited 2010-12-07 21:44:45]

[Edited 2010-12-07 21:45:57]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMitchell Gant From Montserrat, joined Aug 2000, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
Probably one of the least-known Fifth Freedom routes was (still is?) Air Tahiti Nui on the LAX-CDG-LAX legs of their PPT-CDG-PPT flights. Equipment was originally an A340-200, later an A340-300.

This example is not 5th freedom as French Polynesia (Tahiti) is a constituent country of the French Republic; Air Tahiti Nui is a French airline. So in essence this flight originates and terminates in France with a technical stop in a foreign nation.


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9324 times:

Quoting art (Reply 8):
What is 5th freedom, please?

6thfreedom explained it, but for instance QF's 4 flagship routes to LHR are all 5th freedom:

QF1/2: SYD-BKK-LHR-BKK-SYD
QF9/10: MEL-SIN-LHR-SIN-MEL
QF29/30: MEL-HKG-LHR-HKG-MEL
QF31/32: SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD

all the Asia-LHR sectors are 5th freedom, where QF actively competes (sells seats for those sectors as well as Australia-Asia and Australia-LHR) in those sectors.

good explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air


User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2981 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

Here is a list from my end

Air India

HKG-ICN
HKG-KIX

Jet Airways

BRU - JFK
BRU - EWR
BRU - YYZ

Emirates:

BKK - HKG
CMB - SIN
KUL - MEL
SIN - MEL
SIN - BNE
BKK - SYD
SYD-CHC
BKK-CHC
SYD-AKL
BNE-AKL
MEL-AKL
ACC - ABJ
ADD - EBB
MLA - LCA

Etihad Airways:

SIN-BNE

Qatar Airways:

GRU-EZE
SIN-DPS
KUL-HKT
BKK-SGN
BKK-HAN



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6847 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9240 times:

Quoting Mitchell Gant (Reply 16):
This example is not 5th freedom as French Polynesia (Tahiti) is a constituent country of the French Republic; Air Tahiti Nui is a French airline. So in essence this flight originates and terminates in France with a technical stop in a foreign nation.

It is even subsidized by the French taxpayer.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3206 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

United and Delta each have a slew of 5th freedom flights out ir NRT.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9139 times:

Delta currently operates DL70/71 AMS-BOM-AMS

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25879 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8967 times:

Quoting kdonohue (Reply 10):
Previous Fifth Freedom flights from Vancouver included:

Philippine Airlines - Newark
Japan Airlines - Mexico City
QANTAS - San Francisco
Singapore Airlines - Seoul
Malaysia Airlines - Taipei
Air Pacific - Honolulu

QF also operated YVR-HNL nonstop with 5th freedom rights for a while. And for a few years in the 1970s QF served YVR via PPT using 707s with 5th freedom rights YVR-PPT. When QF operated YVR-PPT nonstop it was the longest nonstop route from YVR, just a few miles further than CP's YVR-AMS route.

Cathay Pacific also operated YVR-SFO with 5th freedom rights. That tag-on to HKG-YVR was CX's first service to the USA.

Air New Zealand also briefly operated YVR-HNL-AKL with 5th freedom rights YVR-HNL.


User currently offlinekdonohue From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Viscount724,

I forgot about CX's SFO-YVR service. I remember them offering return flights for $150. YVR-PPT would have been an interesting route.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8791 times:

BA also has Fifth Freedom Rights between certain islands in the Caribbean:

LGW-ANU-SKB 2x weekly
LGW-BGI-GND 2x weekly
LGW-BGI-TAB 2x weekly
LGW-UVF-POS daily


25 L1011Lover : I fondly remember the times when Pan Am and TWA (and later Delta and United) had 5th freedom rights all over Europe. For instance DL (after taking ove
26 9MMAR : I maintained this list of 5th Freedom Flights out of KUL in MalaysianWings. KLIA (KUL) 1. Air Arabia | KUL-KTM-KUL | *Starting on 17 December 2010 2.
27 ojas : Are you sure about this? It's 7 weekly. Also DOH - KUL is rumored to go double daily. 3 weekly. It is a 2 weekly triangular DXB-KUL-CGK-DXB. No right
28 9MMAR : QR's planned KUL-SUB-KUL vv was first leaked by HB-IWC here in A.Net and it was then confirmed by a QR insider at KUL. We are just waiting for the imp
29 9MMAR : The planned SUB tag on is supposed to come together with QR's announcement of double daily service into KUL. Thanks for this info Ojas. I can now fur
30 9MMAR : I think so too. BKK-HKG is currently served by 6 foreign airlines on 5th freedom rights [Emirates (on the A380), Ethiopian, Kenyan, Pakistan, Royal J
31 Post contains links and images VV701 : I believe that UA's similar route authorities out of LHR to certain European cities persisted up until the time that the UK-US Bermuda 2 Agreement wa
32 Viscount724 : the US-EU Open Skies agreement gives all US carriers unrestricted 5th freedom rights on international routes within the EU and beyond the EU. The onl
33 RP TPA : If I recall correctly, the US and Canada modified their bilateral agreement a few years ago. Correct me on this, but I believe it allows a carrier fro
34 Viscount724 : Open Skies agreements (including Canada-USA) almost always permit unrestricted 5th freedom rights, subject of course to the bilateral with the 3rd co
35 Aesma : So by making a "bilateral" that isn't one, the EU countries shot themselves in the foot ? They allow US carriers to fly all over the EU, all the whil
36 IrishAyes : Does BA have any Australia-Asia fifth freedom routes? What about VS?
37 gemuser : BA has fifth freedom rights SYD-SIN & SYD-BKK & VS has them SYD-HKG. BA also has rights SIN-MEL/BNE/PER & maybe ADL, MEL/SYD-AKL/CHC, MEL
38 Viscount724 : The difference is that each EU country is much smaller than the USA, but the principle is identical. In both cases, cabotage is not permitted but int
39 skyguyB727 : LH used to have 5th freedom in South America. I think it was EZE-SCL just like AC. AC used to have 5th freedom HNL-SYD-HNL. I tried getting on that f
40 gemuser : AC still have 5th freedom SFO & HNL - SYD. They just don't use it. Gemuser
41 dennys : To ASMA. You can try the A340 KU or UL on CDG FCO sectors also ! I love this bird too dennys
42 9252fly : Canada and South Africa signed their first bilateral last year.
43 Post contains links tayser : http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1988/12.html SFO, HNL, NAN and PPT are both Canada's & Australia's intermediary points. Note the
44 Post contains images Bralo20 : Brussels Airlines (SN) has the following rights on their AFI routes (and return): COO-ACC ACC-LFW KGL-NBO ABJ-COO ACC-ROB BJM-NBO DKR-BJL EBB-NBO KGL-
45 initious : One frequently forgotten route: DME-IAH on SQ Some others: NRT-LAX, SQ HKG-SFO, SQ ICN-SFO, SQ
46 9MMAR : Also, MH's TPE-LAX vv, CPT-EZE vv, DXB-BEYvv and DXB-DMM vv.
47 Viscount724 : The Canada-Australia bilateral gives Canadian carriers rights to SYD and one other point in Australia of their choice. See the Annex to the agreement
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