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Brazil And The US Sign "open Skies" Deal  
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1066 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11899 times:

Quote:

Os Governos do Brasil e dos Estados Unidos assinaram um acordo de "céus abertos", o qual permitirá a liberalização total das operações aéreas entre os países a partir de outubro de 2015, informaram neste domingo fontes americanas. O acordo foi assinado na sexta-feira no Rio de Janeiro, após três dias de negociações entre o Departamento de Transporte americano e o organismo regulador brasileiro, a Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (Anac), como informaram à Agência Efe negociadores dos EUA.

Translation: The brazilian and american governments have signed an "open skies" agreement, which will allow the liberalization of the air operations between the two countries from October 2015, according to american sources. The deal was signes last friday in Rio de Janeiro, after three days of negotiation between the american Department of Transportation and the brazilian regulatory body, the Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (Anac), as reported to the EFE agency, US negotiators

More here: http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/...ssinam+acordo+de+ceus+abertos.html (in portuguese only)

The article also states that the US-Brazil frequencies will be increased yearly from 2011 until reaching the open skies by 2015, and those will only contemplate GRU from 2013 onwards.

[Edited 2010-12-05 08:03:28]


Please insert a "smart" joke here.
76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3826 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11801 times:

What took them so long to reach this deal? Was it limited capacity at Brazilian airports?

Anyway, I'm glad it's finally arriving. Maybe AA can start ORD-Brazil now and DL can make DTW-GRU daily.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 565 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11592 times:

Quoting AF086 (Thread starter):
The article also states that the US-Brazil frequencies will be increased yearly from 2011 until reaching the open skies by 2015, and those will only contemplate GRU from 2013 onwards.

I hope that enables B6 and others like NK, FL and VX enter that market soon.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11589 times:

That's good news! It was already reported earlier this year that both agencies would meet in December for a new negotiation, but I had no idea they would go so far. It's weird though that it was all so secretive. We shall wait for the MOU now.

User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 611 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11515 times:

How do people this affect LATAM's alliance decision, if at all?


ET In NYC
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11486 times:
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The market Brazil-US is very sensitive to the currency. Of course at this point, more service will cover more the Brazilian demand than the demand from the US to Brazil, At this point, the market supports more 4 to 6 daily flights on peak season.

This in fact is a victory for TAM and Latam that got 5 year protection before more flights become available to USA airlines.

I don't see, at this point, a rush for more flights as:

UA give up on 7 frequencies
AA still do not use all frequencies year-round
DL still do not find the best schedule for their frequencies
US will took more than 1 year to launch their service to GRU

It's too early to expect ORD, LAX, DTW or others. But if i have to say something, DL making DTW daily and AA doing the same with DFW-GIG.

But before that, we will see TAM adding at least 28-35 more weekly flights.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2984 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11425 times:
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TAM needs to do a sky grab!


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11366 times:
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Quoting AA787 (Reply 4):
How do people this affect LATAM's alliance decision, if at all?

I would say this do not affect it. As i mentioned above, they have 5 years of protection to add services without new competitors. I can see, at least, 2 more flights to MIA, 1 flight to MCO, and more service to JFK. As of new destinations, i can see TAM trying LAS.
Of course, during this 5 years it's more than likely that AA, DL and UA will deploy bigger planes to their Brazilian routes by 2012.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33278 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11301 times:

TAM, as the only U.S. carrier flying to Brazil, currently has everything it could possibly ask for at its disposal. It has well over one hundred weekly frequencies available to it, and uses only 60. So this doesn't open up new opportunities for TAM.

It will certainly be helpful for AA to expand into new secondary markets as it sees fit.

And I must say I'm shocked this is happening, especially with GRU included.

As far as LATAM, this is a major boost for oneWorld, because it will mean AA and TAM can apply for ATI mid-decade and merge their U.S.-Brazil networks into one.



a.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11080 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
It will certainly be helpful for AA to expand into new secondary markets as it sees fit.

Definitely AA is the major beneficiary from this

And I must say I'm shocked this is happening, especially with GRU included.

Yes I was surprised to see GRU included. However will GRU just become like LHR? As to airlines having unlimited access potential, but very limited slots/desired times to get?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10923 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
As far as LATAM, this is a major boost for oneWorld, because it will mean AA and TAM can apply for ATI mid-decade and merge their U.S.-Brazil networks into one.

Why is it a boost for either alliance? UA and JJ could also apply for ATI at the same time.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10901 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Why is it a boost for either alliance? UA and JJ could also apply for ATI at the same time.

I think the poster was working on the multiples assumption that :

1/ LATAM is a done deal ( so far as I know it still has to pass regulatory approvals )

and

2/ as a consequence JJ will move to OW ( I have to admit that if LATAM happens this seems the most likely outcome , but it is by now means certain )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1076 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10759 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Why is it a boost for either alliance? UA and JJ could also apply for ATI at the same time.

From the point of view of JJ, it may be more desirable to form an immunized alliance with AA because they are a larger and more powerful competitor in the US-Brazil market and unlike UA, directly compete head-to-head with JJ in the JFK/MIA markets. Therefore, such a move would effectively eliminate their primary competitor and make the combined JJ/AA alliance by far the dominant player in the US-Brazil market. Of course, that won't be an option if JJ remains in Star, but as they evaluate their alliance options for the combined LAN/TAM carrier, it could help shift their preference towards oneworld. This development helps the case of oneworld for arguing that they are the best alliance for LAN/TAM.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10746 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
As far as LATAM, this is a major boost for oneWorld, because it will mean AA and TAM can apply for ATI mid-decade and merge their U.S.-Brazil networks into one.

Why is it a boost for either alliance? UA and JJ could also apply for ATI at the same time.

That is based on the assumption that TAM remains in the Star Alliance until 2015. LAN is not going to enter Star and assuming that LATAM, (LAN will be the majority share-holder in the new airline group), receives the necessary regulatory approvals, (expected by the end of this year), the two carriers will continue to remain in their respective alliances until mid-2012. By that time, Open Skies between Colombia and the U.S. will be a reality. LAN's new affiliate, LAN Colombia will eventually apply for ATI with AA. IMHO, by 2015 JJ will as well.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10688 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 12):
From the point of view of JJ, it may be more desirable to form an immunized alliance with AA because they are a larger and more powerful competitor in the US-Brazil market and unlike UA, directly compete head-to-head with JJ in the JFK/MIA markets. Therefore, such a move would effectively eliminate their primary competitor and make the combined JJ/AA alliance by far the dominant player in the US-Brazil market. Of course, that won't be an option if JJ remains in Star, but as they evaluate their alliance options for the combined LAN/TAM carrier, it could help shift their preference towards oneworld. This development helps the case of oneworld for arguing that they are the best alliance for LAN/TAM.

I guess I'm approaching it from the other direction. I see Oneworld as the clear choice for LATAM, and I don't know that ATI with Brasil pushes things much more toward Oneworld than a host of other factors.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10546 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 9):
However will GRU just become like LHR? As to airlines having unlimited access potential, but very limited slots/desired times to get?

Actually, worse than LHR, since GRU will never reach the size of LHR, does not have the capacity for it, does not offer the opportunity for slot negotiation, will most probably have its eligible slots for intercontinental flights taken for domestic services even before new intercontinental flights can be set up.


User currently offlineSanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

2015, wow why so late??

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10323 times:

Quoting Santi319 (Reply 16):
2015, wow why so late??

Well, I guess it's a way to guarantee some time for Brazilians airline to prepare for the competition. I think that's very commendable, since there is a history of sudden liberalizations in the Brazilian market, which have been quite traumatic for the airline industry.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

Good to see, however I am always invariably disappointed when such agreements are structured with rather meager initial steps and drawn out over long periods.

Certainly a few flights will be added here and there, however the grand prize of Sao Paulo will remain elusive for years to come. Its kind of like Japan where for ages services to all destination was free to be had, with the exception of Tokyo.

And yes TAM and any other potential Brazilian carriers get plenty of time and protection to build upon the large number of unused frequencies they already hold to the US.

[Edited 2010-12-05 20:26:22]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10280 times:
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Quoting Santi319 (Reply 16):
2015, wow why so late??

Probably to protect JJ that have a lot of room for more flights. But i expect this deal, when more info become available to show some frequencies for 2011, 2012 and 2013. 2011 probably 14 with the exception of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, 2012 another 14 with the exception of Sao Paulo, and 2013, other 14, without restrictions.
That was what i heard in the past.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10261 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Probably to protect JJ that have a lot of room for more flights. But i expect this deal, when more info become available to show some frequencies for 2011, 2012 and 2013. 2011 probably 14 with the exception of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, 2012 another 14 with the exception of Sao Paulo, and 2013, other 14, without restrictions.
That was what i heard in the past.

Well, the article says that 250 frequencies will be added until 2014, so it would have to be much more.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9989 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Well, the article says that 250 frequencies will be added until 2014, so it would have to be much more

This number probably includes cargo and charters. The majority would be to charters and cargo and i do not expect more than 21 annual additional frequencies before 2015, with the exception of 2014 due to the World Cup.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAeroSafari From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined Nov 2010, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9953 times:

I could see US adding another flight within the time given, or perhaps increasing the capacity by switching to a larger aircraft (A330) once more are delivered.


Just remember, the sweet is never as sweet without the sour
User currently offlineSanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9813 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Well, I guess it's a way to guarantee some time for Brazilians airline to prepare for the competition. I think that's very commendable, since there is a history of sudden liberalizations in the Brazilian market, which have been quite traumatic for the airline industry.

That makes sense, hopefully GOL will adapt their buisness model a-la 'Air Asia X' and start some long haul from South Brasil.

Also expect to see NK going to MAO, since they have been interested in the past, as well as B6 to Northeast Brasil.


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9767 times:

Quoting AeroSafari (Reply 22):
I could see US adding another flight within the time given, or perhaps increasing the capacity by switching to a larger aircraft (A330) once more are delivered.

US is likely very happy with the two sets of frequencies it currently holds and I could not imagine US desiring any more frequencies in the next 5 years anyhow. Increasing capacity via an aircraft upgauge, while certainly not warranted at this time, would've been already been permitted under the previous agreement.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 2):
I hope that enables B6 and others like NK, FL and VX enter that market soon.

Even when the bilateral constraints disappear, all of those carriers you mentioned do not currently have aircraft suitable of flying to the largest and most attractive cities in Brazil. Perhaps the only exception(s) would be NK to niche markets like MAO (which they previously applied and withdrew an application for), and possibly FOR via FLL on its A319s.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
It will certainly be helpful for AA to expand into new secondary markets as it sees fit.

IMO, AA is really the lone US victor as a result of this agreement, or at least certainly in the near term. You might see DL venture into CNF or add more GRU flights when permitted, but it's hard to imagine DL or any other carrier being interested in a meaningful expansion in Brazil anytime soon. For AA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them increase the frequencies to BSB and CNF and split off REC and SSA into two separate flights. Mid to longer term, I would imagine they have interest in FOR and possibly CWB and/or POA.

[Edited 2010-12-05 22:17:42]

25 commavia : For starters, I - as others - am stunned by this development, which I did not expect to happen anytime soon. It is great news, but very surprising - a
26 ocracoke : That is what almost everyone was saying a year ago in the DL/JL vs AA/JL game. DL being the bigger of the two and obvious choice for JL if they wante
27 commavia : One enormous difference, though: TAM isn't desperate. JAL was desperate and time was of the essence. In LAN/TAM's case, they are setting pretty - com
28 airbazar : Not really that shocked for the following reasons: They can allow as many frequencies as they want but with GRU operating at full capacity, it won't
29 AwysBSB : B6 could run a 320 on SJU-VCP (code-share with AD), NK 319 on FLL-BEL and FL 73G on MCO-MAO. I have doubts about 319 running FLL-FOR, it may not be e
30 rwy04lga : Say WHAT??
31 SCL767 : TAM Linhas Aéreas S.A. is currently the only Brazilian carrier operating into the U.S. However, GOL/VRG Linhas Aéreas S.A. can operate certain char
32 incitatus : Let's not overlook the other side of the Atlantic. IB's network in Spanish-speaking Latin America is unbeatable. And now they are starting their expa
33 ocracoke : I was responding to your comment below: When you say "immunized", I assume that you are speaking of ATI, yes? If so, do explain how ATI is possible w
34 commavia : ATI won't come for five years. The alliance decision will come before that. They are not going to wait 5 years to make that decision. Again, there ar
35 rwy04lga : True Dat, but that's NOT what he said. He said the opposite.
36 PPVRA : This is great news! I'd hate to be picky but 2011 is just around the corner, so 4 years until 2015. 18 months, two years, five or four years. . . just
37 SCL767 : It absolutely strengthens the case for LAN to eventually bring TAM into oneworld. LAN Chile and LAN Perú already enjoy ATI with AA. When Open Skies
38 Post contains links C010T3 : Well, Panrotas reported how the frequencies will be distributed, but without details. They will be created as follow: October 2011 - 24 in total 10 fr
39 AF086 : Let's see if there will be any takes. I could bet on AA increasing MIA-CNF to 5x or even daily. Perhaps CO/UA requesting an EWR-GIG of even AA increa
40 RG787 : True, but I don't think anyone would enter an alliance like TAM did to just leave it after two years or so. The price of entering an alliance might b
41 Post contains images ocracoke : We're not talking about making an alliance decision. We're talking about ATI. If you going to talk about the moons around Jupiter, then don't switch
42 GlobalCabotage : AA is seriously looking at ORD-GRU to connect with Asia. PEK needs to get better flight times, and NRT will go to JL with the new ATI (JL will have an
43 commavia : Well I was. Duh. That's obvious. Read what I actually wrote: if TAM wants to turn a competitor into an immunized alliance partner, AA is the obvious
44 Cubsrule : MIA-POA is probably doable with a 763. With the elevation at CWB, MIA-CWB might be a closer call.
45 incitatus : Both are somewhat challenging. POA has the advantage of lower altitude but I heard that the softness of the pavement is an issue for high gross weigh
46 2travel2know2 : If the U.S.-Brazil bilateral stil allows tag-on between Brazil and Argentina, B767 MIA-COR-POA may make some sense.
47 PPVRA : Since GRU is out for a while, I wonder if anyone will look into VCP. Maybe US-VCP-POA.
48 SCL767 : Until Open Skies goes into effect, it is still beneficial to have an alliance partner compete directly with another fellow alliance partner; rather t
49 Post contains images Lanas : Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an ATI? I was wondering the same thing. How would it be to develop an international gateway at VCP? Distance a
50 LipeGIG : Agreed. Rio and Sao Paulo seems the only markets where they can obtain a good result. Correct, that was the expectation of TAM and LAN. A little more
51 LAXtoATL : Anti-trust immunity. It is granted by government authorities to allow separate businesses in an industry to engage in conversations that would otherw
52 Post contains links C010T3 : I was surprised by what was negotiated in the new MOU. Even old frequencies were slightly modified: (...) 1. The designated airlines of each Party may
53 GlobalCabotage : ORD-LIM-SCL on Lan is in the works, justs needs a few more better connections with AA at ORD to Asia. ORD-GRU on AA is possible now, but would require
54 adtall : Are these already awarded frequencies? I'm guessing the 21 are the AA/DL non-GIG/GRU frequencies, are the others the CO/US 14 and the 7 AA and DL spl
55 AA787 : What is your source for this?
56 C010T3 : Yes, I'll list everything for you: a. AA-47 / DL-23 / UA-21 / CO-14 b. AA-14 / DL-7 c. CO-7 d. US-7 e. AA-11 / DL-3 ---------------------------------
57 adtall : Thanks, that explains it completely. Forgot about the 7 JFK-GIG AA frequencies too, thanks for putting those in.
58 SCL767 : Earlier this year, LAN Perú S.A. requested further amendments to its operating permits from DGAC in order to begin new services, or increase frequen
59 LAXdude1023 : No it isnt. I know for a fact that it is not being seriously looked at as of now. It may happen one day, but its not immenent. ORD-LIM is a very smal
60 SCL767 : LIM-IAD is imminent. However, sooner or later you will see LAN at ORD. This also applies to LAN's flights to JFK and SFO; however AA does not fly LAX
61 LipeGIG : Interesting, thanks for sharing. Now i begin to imagine what will happen next year... for sure AA will be again the big winner for non-GIG frequencie
62 MAH4546 : I see AA entering Fortaleza in late 2011; and possibly Manaus in Belem 2-3 years down the line. Fortaleza and Porto Alegre are pretty much the only bi
63 LipeGIG : FOR seems as the potential destination for 2011. Other than that, BSB or CNF can get frequencies. But I still believe some of the 28 frequencies will
64 AwysBSB : As I posted on the beginning of this thread, B6, NK and FL may enter this market soon.
65 LipeGIG : I really do not expect them. The only feasible market would be BEL but it's not big enough for a daily service.
66 AwysBSB : If you consider that out of SJU B6's 320 can reach most of the Brazilian international airports, you will find other feasible markets, like the AD's
67 incitatus : In early 20th Century Belem was the fourth largest city in Brazil. In 1910 Belem had 270 k people, a thriving port, and its dimension was not unlike
68 PPVRA : Anyone more familiar with Puerto Rico and it's potential for flights to Brazil? It's geographically interesting, especially for reaching the southern
69 LipeGIG : The problem with BEL is the lack of markets for connections. You need to rely on O&D BEL and MCP mostly and this to me is not enough for a profit
70 MAH4546 : Yet BEL is a bigger market to the United States than all of them. BEL is the ninth largest U.S.-Brazil market after GRU, GIG, CNF, REC, MAO, BSB, SSA
71 LipeGIG : It does not surprise me Mark. Yet real numbers bring this order, i'm sure the lack of non-stop and many times code-share to places like POA, CWB and
72 C010T3 : I fully agree with you. It's just another proof of how distorted these figures are.
73 incitatus : I do not know the source of your information, and how well the numbers you have covered interlines, and from what period they are. BEL-US cannot be b
74 C010T3 : The biggest problems are separate ticketing and the lack of interlining. Sometimes I question if G3 is considered at all when there is no code-share
75 LipeGIG : Exactly. And BEL use to be serviced to the U.S as a stop on FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA service, a status POA never got. POA, CWB are mostly included on GRU numb
76 Post contains links PPVRA : http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-mar...ratification-top-priorityofficials Good to hear this is moving quickly.
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