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Taag T7 Return To LIS  
User currently offlinetrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7159 times:

The TAAG flight between Lisbon and Luanda (DT651, I guess) requested emergency landing just after take-off. Apparently there was an explosion in one of the engines, and some debris as fallen in Almada, roughly 5-6 nm distance to the end of runway 21. Information is still not very accurate, the initial reports mentioned a TAP a/c, also bound to Luanda, but later was confirmed to be the T7 from TAAG. Although all passengers all OK, the debris from the airliner caused minor injures in two persons on the ground and some damage in parked vehicles. Waiting for further updates on this

Initial report, only in PT

http://sol.sapo.pt/inicio/Sociedade/Interior.aspx?content_id=6256

[Edited 2010-12-06 06:46:34]

[Edited 2010-12-06 06:48:46]


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7088 times:

The flight was DT651, that left at 11h11m. Police describes the debris collected as metal parts measuring 5X25 cm. Fan blades after an acontained engine failure?



An update, again only in PT

http://tsf.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Vida/Interior.aspx?content_id=1728473



Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlinePhotoLPPT From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 511 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7058 times:

Hi,

Indeed, it was flight DT651 LIS-LAD, aircraft is D2-TEF, departed 11:11, landed 12:30 aprox.

TV showed some strips of charred metal, around the size of a hand, to me it seemed pieces of fan blades, but then again i'm no expert. Aircraft then dumped fuel over the sea south of Lisbon (Caparica zone) and returned to the airport without further incident.

Hearing unconfirmed rumors of a birdstrike.
Glad everything turned out ok, but on the other hand, it will probably cause havoc on D2 schedulling for the next few days, if that T7 is INOP waiting for a new engine at LIS.

Cheers


User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

This is quite a blow for DT, and also an opportunity for them to demonstrate some sort of preparedness for dealing with a situation like this (if there is any). Hope we find out more details soon, especially if this was a contained or uncontained engine failure. No grounds for this as of now, however I can´t stop remembering VH-OQA.


Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlinePhotoLPPT From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 511 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6877 times:

Problem with TAAG at this moment is more of public perception. A bird strike or any engine problem can happen to any airliner/airline. Heck, it even happen to Mr. Puttins' IL-96 right here in LIS a few years ago!

Although the T7 are cleared to fly to LIS, and are well maintained, average joe will read about this in the media, with titles like "Angola airplane loses pieces in flight", and make the obvious (and quite wrong) connection: " Oh look, such an unsafe airline!"


User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 721 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

Indeed, first off, glad to hear all pax and crew were unharmed. Let's also hope that people are not going to jump to premature conclusions: African carriers are unsafe.

User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6827 times:

More than likely a gaffe, but "Publico" is reporting the 5 by 15 part to be part of the fuselage. If it is true (which I am sure it isn't) this could turn out to be an uncontained engine failure, which is much more serious.

http://www.publico.pt/Local/aviao-an...ada-encontram-pecas-na-rua_1469718

Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlinetrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6759 times:

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 5):
Let's also hope that people are not going to jump to premature conclusions: African carriers are unsafe



It's already happening, I'm sorry to say. TAAG has been doing a great effort to erase the bad image left by the recent problems. But there are also reports that the interior of their aircraft, specially in economy classes, in poor conditions. Obviously that does not mean poor maintenance, but people tend to link things. There still some conflicting news and the investigating authorities haven't officially linked the debris to the returned airliner.



Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

This is concerning, especially since sistership D2-TEE had an uncontained engine failure at GRU a few weeks ago. I'm worried that TAAG is beginning to fall back into their old ways when they were blacklisted. I hope this isn't a problem with TAAG's maintenance.

BTW, TAP PORTUGAL maintains TAAG's 777 fleet.

Quoting trystero (Reply 7):
But there are also reports that the interior of their aircraft, specially in economy classes, in poor conditions.

This is true, the interior of their new planes are poorly maintained.


User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6460 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 8):
TAP PORTUGAL maintains TAAG's 777 fleet.

I am sure you have your sources, so not contradicting you here. However, could you provide confirmation of this as I am almost certain these aircraft are maintened in Beijing (by AMECO if I am not mistaken).


Speedbird741

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 8):
D2-TEE had an uncontained engine failure at GRU a few weeks ago

Had no idea of that. VERY serious indeed.


Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 8):
This is concerning, especially since sistership D2-TEE had an uncontained engine failure at GRU a few weeks ago. I'm worried that TAAG is beginning to fall back into their old ways when they were blacklisted. I hope this isn't a problem with TAAG's maintenance.

TAAG never left their old ways, they simply covered it up better   
I would say that they are on "probation" for the EU blacklist too. Only 3 777's and 4 737s are allowed to fly to Europe. With this being the second such incident in such a short time I wouldn't be surprised to see them back on the blacklist soon.

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 4):
Although the T7 are cleared to fly to LIS, and are well maintained, average joe will read about this in the media, with titles like "Angola airplane loses pieces in flight", and make the obvious (and quite wrong) connection: " Oh look, such an unsafe airline!"

Sorry, it's a lot more than perception. An airline doesn't get blacklisted in the EU purely for perception.
It sure doesn't help that such a tiny airline has managed to have 2 fatal crashes.


User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6295 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 9):
I am sure you have your sources, so not contradicting you here. However, could you provide confirmation of this as I am almost certain these aircraft are maintened in Beijing (by AMECO if I am not mistaken).

Unfortunately I don't have an official source, this was just from a friend of mine who is close with the airline. I heard the 777s were maintained in LIS while the 73Gs were maintained by South African Airways. But that of course is not official so you could very well be correct.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 9):
Had no idea of that. VERY serious indeed.

I know, that's the concerning part. This would be the second accident on a different airplane in a very short period of time. The 777 was departing GRU and aborted its takeoff before becoming airborne.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
With this being the second such incident in such a short time I wouldn't be surprised to see them back on the blacklist soon.

Indeed, it's definitely a possibility. Unless of course this incident was a bird strike.


User currently offlinetrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

I have the notion that there has been several incidents involving T7's engines. BA in HTW, a couple of IFSD, these two from D2, in Moscow and CDG, these are some I recall. I know that the problems have different natures, and probably different manufacturers, but his my impression correct or it's too much information available?

[Edited 2010-12-06 15:11:43]


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6188 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 11):
73Gs were maintained by South African Airways.

Yes, that is correct. The 743s were also maintained by SA for for a long period of time. As for the 777, I can guarantee that TAP maintenance and engineering does not handle any variant of the GE90. In fact, they only handle CF6-80C2 (within the GE family of course). However, it is most certainly possible that TAP maintenance and engineering performs some kind of aircraft component repair work on TAAG's T7s (avionics, pneumatics, etc), and I will take your word for it.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
a tiny airline has managed to have 2 fatal crashes.

Lets be fair now. TAAG had absolutely no responsibility for one of those two as the aircraft was shot down by UNITA rebels.



Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6158 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 13):
Yes, that is correct. The 743s were also maintained by SA for for a long period of time. As for the 777, I can guarantee that TAP maintenance and engineering does not handle any variant of the GE90. In fact, they only handle CF6-80C2 (within the GE family of course). However, it is most certainly possible that TAP maintenance and engineering performs some kind of aircraft component repair work on TAAG's T7s (avionics, pneumatics, etc), and I will take your word for it.

Ok that makes sense. So then engine work is done in PEK, correct? Do you know anything of the quality of work done there?

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 13):
Lets be fair now. TAAG had absolutely no responsibility for one of those two as the aircraft was shot down by UNITA rebels.

Good point. Surprisingly, TAAG's safety record in terms of fatalities is actually pretty good. They do seem to get "lucky" fairly often though.


User currently offlinePhotoLPPT From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 511 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

There's a vid floating around of the emergency landing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHUpZTznPBg&feature=player_embedded

Nothing special to see, but you'll note an higher pitch of the (single) running engine and that no reversers were used.

(copyright by the author)


User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6115 times:

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 15):

There's a vid floating around of the emergency landing....

That is a great video, thanks for sharing. Good to see that the DT cockpit crew knew what they were doing, good job to them.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6067 times:

Quoting trystero (Reply 12):
I have the notion that there has been several incidents involving T7's engines. BA in HTW, a couple of IFSD, these two from D2, in Moscow and CDG, these are some I recall. I know that the problems have different natures, and probably different manufacturers, but his my impression correct or it's too much information available?

There are a lot of 777 flying around, so an engine problem every now and then is pretty normal.

With that said, the BA thing (RR engines) led to a modification, as did the AF (and others) problems (GE engines).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 6055 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 14):
Do you know anything of the quality of work done there?

I do not know anything concrete. However, bearing in mind that they just signed a 5 year contract to perform all heavy maintenance on United´s 747 and 777 fleet, their client portfolio that is composed of a good number of more than reputable airlines such as Austrian, Air France, and EVA, as well as the fact that they are a joint venture between Lufthansa and Air China I would not hesitate in assuming they provide good quality service.


Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 6012 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
I would not hesitate in assuming they provide good quality service.

I was just looking at their website as well, and I agree with you.

I found something interesting in the news section on TAAG's website. Does anyone know what this is?

http://taag.com/en/press-release.aspx

Quote:

TAAG Signs GE OnPoint Solution Agreement for GE90 Engines
July 19, 2010

GE AVIATION NEWS REALEASE

FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW 19/07/2010 TAAG (ANGOLA AIR LINES) has signed a 10-year OnPoint solution services agreement for the maintenance, repair and overhaul of its 10 GE90 engines that power its Boeing777-200ER and -300ER aircraft. The agreement is valued at more than $50 milion(USD) over the life of the agreement.

“TAAG is pleased to award the responsibility for the maintenance of all of its 10 GE90 engines to GE´s OnPoint services. With a relatively small fleet of Boeing 777´s we need to assure the absolute highest operational schedule reliability and we believe GE´s OnPoint solution services will accomplish our operational objectives for the next 10 years” said Dr Pimentel Araujo, Chairman of TAAG ANGOLA AIR LINES.

GE looks forward to working closer with TAAG and helping it maintain its new fleet of GE90 engines “ said Tom Gentile President and chief executive officer of GE Aviation´s services organization.” The OnPoint agreement will ensure the airlines receive high quality OEM material and repairs to help its engines remain in top performance condition.

The flag carrier for Angola, TAAG has a large domestic network as well as flights to other African Countries, Europe and South America. It currently operates three GE90-94B-powered BOEING777-200ERs and four CFM56*-powered BOEING 737-700s. In April, TAAG ordered two GE90-115B powered BOEING777-300ERs that will be delivered next year.

OnPoint solution are customized service agreements tailored to the operational and financial needs of each costumer for any size fleet. Theese agreements are designed to help lower the costumers cost of ownership and maximize the use of their assets. Backed by GE´s global support network, OnPoint services may include overhaul and diagnostics and integrated systems.GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE(NYSE:GE), is a world-leading provider of JET and TURBOPROP engines, components and integrated systems for commercial, military, business and general aviation aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings.

For more information visit www.ge.com/aviation.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3555 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

Any more information on the debris that supposedly fell off and sent people to the hospital?

Nevermind: got my answer here
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=43441ced&opt=4096

[Edited 2010-12-06 21:23:01]


A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5711 times:

It seems the European comission has stated they are "following the investigation very closely" and they have "contacted the Portuguese authorities in order to determine what their next move should be."


Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
I do not know anything concrete. However, bearing in mind that they just signed a 5 year contract to perform all heavy maintenance on United´s 747 and 777 fleet, their client portfolio that is composed of a good number of more than reputable airlines such as Austrian, Air France, and EVA, as well as the fact that they are a joint venture between Lufthansa and Air China I would not hesitate in assuming they provide good quality service.

Keep in mind that who does the maintenance is completely irrelevant as far as the EU blacklist is concerned. SAA was performing their maintenance when TAAG was blacklisted and yet SAA was not blacklisted. TAAG did not get blacklisted due to the quality of the maintenance but rather because of the airline's corporate poor commitement/mentality towards safety and maintenance.
Yeah, it's great that the airline has a contract with reputable firm XYZ for their maintenance, but if the airline doesn't send their planes there when required, or has no record of the work ever having been done, than who is "maintaining" your aircraft is completely irrelevant. and that is why TAAG was blacklisted.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5660 times:

And that can even be because the country is not committed (lack of money or corruption being the usual suspects), even if the airline is run by the book.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
And that can even be because the country is not committed (lack of money or corruption being the usual suspects), even if the airline is run by the book.

I happen to know from people involved, that TAAG was black listed because they didn't even have "the book" to begin with.


25 B727LVR : The #1 engine reverser was used. If you watch the video at about 0:47 you see the #1 thrust reverser deploying. I suspect minimal reverse thrust was
26 Post contains links boeingrulz : Interestingly a TAP Lisbon Luanda flight which departed 22:00h from Portela also had to return to the airport after an inflight emergency. http://tsf.
27 airbazar : There were only 125 pax onboard so the flight was probably very light too.
28 MHTripple7 : This is interesting. Was this in a news article? If there is once again a problem with TAAG's maintenance, it would be the fault of both the Portugue
29 Post contains images trystero : Flights between Lisbon and Luanda are never light.
30 Post contains links MHTripple7 : Here is a link to an article that states Brussels has taken an interest in this incident as mentioned by Speedbird741: http://sol.sapo.pt/inicio/Socie
31 Post contains images airportugal310 : Yeah...for 125 pax there were probably north of 400 bags
32 Post contains links Speedbird741 : Forgive me, but how can you make such assertion? Surely it is by no means the sole factor, however the way a fleet is maintained is extremely importa
33 Post contains images JCS17 : It's just TAAG's new guerilla marketing campaign.
34 Post contains links MHTripple7 : TAAG says it will not be put back onto the blacklist: http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/ta...so-a-lista-negra-da-ue_106334.html
35 Post contains images airbazar : I have a familiy member who's an airline safety executive. Regardless of where the aircraft is maintained, it is solely the airline's responsibility
36 boeingrulz : In the article that MHTripple7 linked to the administrator of TAAG is quoted as saying that as of yet, there is no confirmation that the debris that f
37 MHTripple7 : Indeed. Maybe they meant that they would cover the costs if the investigation proves that TAAG is responsible? There's really no telling with them th
38 trystero : It has been officially recognized by the commission in charge of the investigation that the metal debris fallen in the city of Almada was parts from t
39 Post contains links airbazar : According to this news report, all 4 of TAAG's 777's are "out of order". If true it's reason enough to say, some things will never change. http://tsf.
40 santos : There will be only 1 winner- TP Im sure that they will be more than happy to take all the extra passengers-so close to the holiday season, and i'm sur
41 Post contains links MHTripple7 : This is insane. Their 3 777s and 1 74D are all out of service. Even with bad maintenance this seems so unlikely. Is their a possibility of sabotage?
42 Post contains links boeingrulz : Thanks MHTripple7 This does seem to be an unprecidented amount of transparancy for TAAG. ANGOP is the official mouthpiece of the government so all the
43 Post contains links MHTripple7 : I think he means major maintenance work. Another article mentioned they don't even have a hangar that fits the 777. When I was in LAD I believe I saw
44 Post contains images boeingrulz : That is true, the 777's are parked outside the hanger when not on the flightline. I believe that before independence, TAAG only flew regional turbopro
45 trystero : Good work. Something is definitely going wrong. Don't know if it's possible for engine to have "environmental problems"? something related to Luanda
46 Aesma : Another possibility is that the string of incidents made it evident to all that there was still a problem with maintenance, meaning if nothing was don
47 LipeGIG : It seems one of their 772 is now at GIG's TAP maintenance facility. They can even manage to have the engine maintenance in Rio as GE is able to do tha
48 MHTripple7 : This is a very interesting idea, but of course I have no clue if it's possible. For these problems to happen to every one of TAAG's long-haul aircraf
49 Post contains images boeingrulz : Trystero, I have been thinking the same thing about Luanda. The runway there is in very poor condition and I believe the chance of engine ingestion of
50 ETinCaribe : And people knew of all this and no one thought that it would be a problem? Let's see what transpires moving forward.
51 MHTripple7 : Well, Angola's airport management company, ENANA, has been trying to refurbish several airports throughout the country. While they still have a long
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