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TSA's Pistole: Israel Has Only 50 Flights Per Day  
User currently offlineEltomzo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12467 times:

In an interview in the Wall Street Journal John Pistole of the TSA defends his agencies policies of late. When justifying why the TSA won't be using Israel-style profiling Pistole says Israel only has 50 flights per day, which compares with 27,000 per day in the US.

This number is surprisingly small for an entire developed country - is it correct?


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40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12439 times:

Quoting Eltomzo (Thread starter):
This number is surprisingly small for an entire developed country - is it correct?

No, TLV only today has more than 100 departures. And that's only TLV.



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User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12393 times:

Though to be fair, there won't be too many flights from Eilat, certainly not 26,900 to make up for the difference with the US  

User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12333 times:

They (Israel) also have significantly less resources than the TSA.

Having to train a significantly larger employee base sure has its difficulties, but it also has its advantages, such as economies of scale.

Stop using number of flights as an excuse as to why your efforts are, at best, mediocre.


User currently offlineetherealsky From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12212 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 3):
Stop using number of flights as an excuse as to why your efforts are, at best, mediocre.

  

Besides, if TSA wants to make assumptions based on this kind of logic, wouldn't it also be fair to say that Israel is inherently more of a target compared to the US, regardless of the number of flights? Israel exists in a region with a lot of people who wish it didn't...I would think that the frequency/intensity of any planned attacks on Israel would probably be much higher than in the United States.

[Edited 2010-12-07 02:47:35]


"And that's why you always leave a note..."
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1249 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

According to the Israel Airports Authority website, in 2008 TLV had 82,649 international flights + 11,995 domestic flights. ETH (Eilat) airport had 872 int'l + 17,662 domestic flights. SDV (Tel Aviv Dov Hoz) had 1422 int'l + 33,266 domestic. RPN (Rosh Pina) had 9,703 (all domestic) VDA (Ovda) had 824 flights (both) and HFA (Haifa) 234 int'l + 9,934 domrstic.

This sums in total of 168,521 flights. Divided by 364 days a year (on Yom Kippor israeli airspace is closed) it makes 463 flights a day.

(statistics from www.iaa.gov.il)



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12110 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 5):
This sums in total of 168,521 flights. Divided by 364 days a year (on Yom Kippor israeli airspace is closed) it makes 463 flights a day.

Add to that the fact that Israeli security takes care of all El Al, Israir, Arkia, and Sun D'Or flights from abroad to Israel. The total number is probably a bit over 500.

Also, you need to remember that a good chunk of these flights consist of widebodies. Just take a look at all the 747s, 767s, 777s, A330s and A340s that are parked at TLV at any given moment. While in the United States, widebodies account for a miniscule number of flights. If you would compare the number of passengers that Israeli security needs to take care of in a day, and the number of passengers that the TSA needs to take care of, the difference is much smaller.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Also, you need to remember that the Israeli officials don't trust the USA TSA flights completely for El Al either, with profiling starting the minute a passenger steps up to the El Al counter or check in facility in any city. Also, ever watched the slew of security vehicles that accompany an El Al aircraft out to the runway in just about any city?

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3715 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11835 times:
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Isn't the TSA's comparison of size a bit academic anyway? Whether or not the amount of security checks to be performed is a factor why Israeli-style security isn't an option in the US, the biggest obstacle still remains that one of the tenets of Israeli security is something that would be called racial profiling in the US, where it is illegal.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
If you would compare the number of passengers that Israeli security needs to take care of in a day, and the number of passengers that the TSA needs to take care of, the difference is much smaller.

It's so insignificantly smaller as to be meaningless. Even if you assume for the sake of argument that each and every single of the 26,000 daily flights in the US is operated by a regional jet with average load, that's still over a million passenger a day. Again assume every one of the 500 daily flights in Israel is a wide-body packed to the gills, you're still only at about 200,000 passengers a day!



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinerolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1796 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11799 times:

What's keeping them from screening train passengers later on, then even bus passengers...   In the end you won't be able to exit your house without being strip searched  


rolf
User currently offlinespartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11649 times:

Is anyone in this forum actually expecting intelligent commentary from TSA in general and its Director in particular?

TSA has morphed, as all knew it would, into a self-perpetuating government bureaucracy which has, as its primary function, the perpetuation of its own budget and significance.....



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11602 times:

At the risk of offending our ever sensitive moderators, Israeli security works. American airport security is a pathetic, offensive joke. The "Cannot Do" attitude of TSA is clearly indicative of the underlying problem here in the States, and our enemies are counting on that attitude to continue. Personally, I find it miraculous that there have been no major incidents here in the US since 9/11. (Not counting, of course, the shoot out at the El Al counter in LA a few years back, the one that didn't end too well for the perpetrator). Profiling works. Body pat downs and scanning of infants, pre-pubescents, and wheelchair bound grandmothers does not.


"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlinedaumueller From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 687 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11545 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 5):
This sums in total of 168,521 flights. Divided by 364 days a year (on Yom Kippor israeli airspace is closed) it makes 463 flights a day.

and while we're at it: due to shabbat, it would be even more flights/day since there's basicly only 6 flying days/week


User currently offlinespartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11524 times:

Quoting rolfen (Reply 9):
What's keeping them from screening train passengers later on, then even bus passengers

The Secretary of Homeland Security, herself a political appointee, has already raised the possibility of scans coming to bus and train stations near you.......From Fox News on 25 November 2010....

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said this week that her department is considering beefing up security on trains, ships and mass transit amid a public backlash over the body scanners and "enhanced" pat-downs at airports across the country.

When asked what terrorists will be thinking in the future, Napolitano said Monday on "Charlie Rose" that they will "continue to probe the system and try to find a way through."

"I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime," she said. "So what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there?"



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2197 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11525 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 3):
Stop using number of flights as an excuse as to why your efforts are, at best, mediocre.

Typical govspeak. Incompetence, or lies.

Quoting spartanmjf (Reply 10):
Is anyone in this forum actually expecting intelligent commentary from TSA in general and its Director in particular?

TSA has morphed, as all knew it would, into a self-perpetuating government bureaucracy which has, as its primary function, the perpetuation of its own budget and significance.....

This is EXACTLY the situation.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 11):
Israeli security works. American airport security is a pathetic, offensive joke. The "Cannot Do" attitude of TSA is clearly indicative of the underlying problem here in the States, and our enemies are counting on that attitude to continue.

The enemies are winning. That's what too many citizens don't understand. Every time we jump through some new purposeless security hoop, it's a victory for the terrorist.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1444 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11490 times:

A more accurate gauge would be the number of screeners as opposed to the number of passengers. With the number of screeners sitting around doing nothing, I'd bet the Israelis do more with less. I have my doubts whether some of the current screeners could perform at the required level however.

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11491 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):
Whether or not the amount of security checks to be performed is a factor why Israeli-style security isn't an option in the US, the biggest obstacle still remains that one of the tenets of Israeli security is something that would be called racial profiling in the US, where it is illegal.

Why then is there more 'security' checks in the US than Israel needs to impose? Sure, it might be illegal but when exactly has that ever stopped it being done?


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3715 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11418 times:
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Quoting AirNZ (Reply 16):
Why then is there more 'security' checks in the US than Israel needs to impose?

I'm not sure you understood my point (or I understood your reply). TSA argues Israeli-style security isn't an option because TSA has much more passengers to check than Israeli security. My point is that it is meaningless because Israeli security uses racial profiling, which is illegal in the US, therefore the law is the biggest impediment, not some argument about size.
If TSA tried to implement it as a policy anyway, it wouldn't take long for the ACLU to find a judge to block it.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11414 times:

Maybe Israel can afford that a lot of people don't want to bother with their security, and the US can't ? Surely Israel doesn't have a lot of traffic from its neighbours, or North Africa, Indonesia ?

And of course we know they can afford (or think they can anyway) not being bothered too much with things like freedom and human rights.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11098 times:

Quoting spartanmjf (Reply 10):
Is anyone in this forum actually expecting intelligent commentary from TSA in general and its Director in particular?

TSA has morphed, as all knew it would, into a self-perpetuating government bureaucracy which has, as its primary function, the perpetuation of its own budget and significance.....

I recently sent an e-mail to the TSA, with my concerns over the new procedures AND about Mr. Pistole's attitude when questioned about it. I needn't have wasted my time or breath. The reply I got back was the usual form letter type reply that you expect to get back. I guess I should have expected it, but at least I got it off of my chest.

Here's the text of the reply I got:

"Thank you for your e-mail regarding pat-down procedures conducted at our Nation’s airports.


At airports nationwide, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is implementing more streamlined, consistent, and thorough pat-down procedures at security checkpoints to provide a higher level of security and increase the safety of the traveling public. Patdowns are one important tool to help TSA detect hidden and dangerous items, such as explosives. Passengers should continue to expect an unpredictable mix of security layers that include explosives trace detection, advanced imaging technology, and canine teams, among others.


Transportation Security Officers will conduct different pat-down procedures to resolve different types of anomalies. During the assessment, officers will use revised pat-down procedures in all instances to resolve anomalies. The updated pat-down procedures will address areas of the body that we know are used as areas to conceal potentially dangerous items, like explosives.


TSA Administrator John Pistole has stated that TSA strives to ensure consistency whenever possible for passengers at security checkpoints. As always, all passengers have the right to request private screening at any time during the screening process, and patdowns are conducted by same-gender officers. However, passengers who are not willing to go through the screening process will not be permitted to fly.


We understand and regret the discomfort and inconvenience you experienced as a result of pat-down procedures. Nevertheless, we believe these security measures are necessary and appropriate for ensuring the security and confidence of all air travelers. TSA continues to develop and deploy new technologies to address the explosives threat, and the use of pat-downs provides an additional layer of security at the checkpoint. For more information regarding the pat-down procedures, please visit TSA’s Web site (www.tsa.gov).


We hope this information is helpful.


TSA Contact Center "





Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Maybe Israel can afford that a lot of people don't want to bother with their security, and the US can't ? Surely Israel doesn't have a lot of traffic from its neighbours, or North Africa, Indonesia ?

As I recall, in most of the terrorist problems the U.S. has had, most of the terrorists weren't our neighbors, either.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10896 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):
As I recall, in most of the terrorist problems the U.S. has had, most of the terrorists weren't our neighbors, either.

What I meant is that Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese don't want to go to Israel anyway, and Israel don't want them. Whereas the US want everybody to come, pretty much.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

Quoting Eltomzo (Thread starter):
This number is surprisingly small for an entire developed country - is it correct?

It's a very small country, geographically...263 miles long and only 71 miles wide at its widest point, if Wikipedia is right. That makes cars and buses practical for most internal travel.

As for international travel, the political situation limits the number of people traveling to Israel, although tourism is important and growing - I've seen Israeli travel ads on TV several times in the last few weeks. But a lot of potential tourists stay away because of the perception of terrorist danger. And while Israel offers a lot for a student of history or culture - the most museums per capita in the world, for example - for the typical vacationer looking for sports or leisure travel there are better and/or cheaper destinations.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 9):
What's keeping them from screening train passengers later on, then even bus passengers.

Budget, for one - the bill that funds DHS breaks out TSA's budget into air and ground components, and the ground component is only around 2% of the total, and is mainly intended to put TSA in an advisory role.


User currently offlinerobsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10119 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 14):
The enemies are winning. That's what too many citizens don't understand. Every time we jump through some new purposeless security hoop, it's a victory for the terrorist.

AND, a victory for the propagandists and control freaks in gov't that use it as excuse for ever more intrusion into the private affairs and liberty of its citizens.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."


Benjamin Franklin


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9835 times:

Maybe next time the TSA won't hire criminals and minimum wage workers? Shockingly they don't make good security agents. Unless your plan is to create new drug smuggling rings.

User currently offlineeisenbach From Austria, joined Mar 2001, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9356 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 15):
A more accurate gauge would be the number of screeners as opposed to the number of passengers. With the number of screeners sitting around doing nothing, I'd bet the Israelis do more with less. I have my doubts whether some of the current screeners could perform at the required level however.

I agree !!!

I really think the TSA is not very effective and I have to say, that some of the most gormless officers I had were in the US (as much as I love this country).



Do228, Saab340, Twin-Otter, C212, Fokker50, AN24, ATR42, ATR72, Dash8-400Q, MD90, MD83, EMB120, A300, A343, B721, B743,.
25 Post contains images chrisair : They do? Clearly you haven't been to Arizona lately.....
26 ckfred : On the one hand, Israel gets you coming and going. They subject to you various levels of scrutiny upon arrival at TLV, to make sure that you aren't th
27 SJUSXM : This is certainly what I thought, but I have a college student friend that just got hired by the TSA. Did you know they can make $18/hr upon entry! A
28 flyinghippo : If TSA can stop all the Muslims and Arab looking passengers like TLV, 95% of the passengers wouldn't even feel the difference. But can you see this be
29 iairallie : And I heard some of the Israeli carriers do not fly on the sabbath too. So that would bump the number up higher. No they don't they use threat profil
30 rolfen : About 80% of the hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. Of course there is the occasional Richard Reid, but I bet they would not get many non-Arabs to join t
31 Bennett123 : ckfred NW253 is not a terribly good example. The guy's father warned the Nigerian/US govt. There presumably was not even a warning linked to his passp
32 hz747300 : So true... I just wish that they would put this in their mission statement so it was clear for all to see.
33 Post contains images MSYPI7185 : They do not use racial profiling. I have heard interviews with at least 2 former Israeli Security Personel, who says otherwise. I am tired of it cann
34 Santi319 : You Nailed it man, couldn't have said it better myself!!
35 Quokka : What does a Muslim look like? There are African-American Muslims, there are Muslims from the Philippines, from Malaya , obviously those from the Midd
36 NYC-air : It's true that Israel's pre-flight profiling means certain types of people get extra scrutiny, but EVERYONE is still asked a slew of personal questio
37 mayor : Well, yes and no. When I was working there in '91, we were told that certain groups, depending on dress or where your license plate says you are from
38 EL-AL : I never come to TLV more then 2 hours before my flight and I never missed one. Usually 1.5 hours is well enough, including duty free shopping. On dom
39 Viper911 : Well come to Israel and see for yourself then, Israeli airport security never used racial profiling as a security measure for one simple reason, the
40 EliNYC : Well, groping is also illegal in the US, so who's Pistole to decide that they can't profile but can grope?
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