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Turkish Airlines: Why Both 737-800 And A320?  
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1785 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9966 times:

Why does Turkish airlines operate both 737-800 and A320? Aren't the two competitors which have very similar characteristics? or does Turkish operate certain routes which one type can do while the other can't?

Am I right in saying that Turkish is the only carrier which operates both the A320 and the 737-800 (not counting the ones which have merged recently like Delta-Northwest or United-Continental) ?


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Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9924 times:

You can go back for 10-years here on A.net and find discussions about the topic.

But in summary, yes each aircraft has their own strengths however with THY being primarily government owned such major purchasing decisions get national attention are influenced by politics. Keeping both America and Europe happy is part of the bigger game.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1232 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9782 times:

I have flown on both B73NGs and A32Xs of TK. It seems they fly the Airbus jets more intra-Turkey, with a slightly tighter config, while the B738s fly more regional routes, and are slightly more roomy. Just my humble opinion.


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6303 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9743 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
It seems they fly the Airbus jets more intra-Turkey, with a slightly tighter config, while the B738s fly more regional routes, and are slightly more roomy. Just my humble opinion.

Agreed...the A320s certainly end up, in my experience, more internally, in places like Ankara, Antalya, Eskişehir, Adana, etc.; The Boeing's, on the other hand, end up more in Amsterdam, Brussels, Frankfurt, Berlin, Rome, etc. Again, just my experience...


User currently offlineSU184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9702 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
Am I right in saying that Turkish is the only carrier which operates both the A320 and the 737-800 (not counting the ones which have merged recently like Delta-Northwest or United-Continental) ?

I'm afraid this is not right, EgyptAir, Air China, China Southern, Air Berlin, SAS are among those who fly both aircrafts.


User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9655 times:

I've heard from more than one source that once you hit a certain number of a type, the economies of scale kick in and that it is perfectly acceptable to have two similar types operating as sub-fleets at a single airline. In fact in a SWOT analysis such "diversity" might even identified as combating a potential threat.

I could be wrong but hasn't US Airways been operating both 737s and 320 family birds for almost 15 years?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlinecerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 727 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9565 times:

Quoting SU184 (Reply 4):
I'm afraid this is not right, EgyptAir, Air China, China Southern, Air Berlin, SAS are among those who fly both aircrafts

One can add China Eastern to this list. In addition, QF operates 738 while its subsidiary JQ operates 320.


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9484 times:

It is all political - nothing more.

Keeping both the US and the EU as "best friends" - just imagine where turkey is located!

At german airports you see changing equipment from day to day from TK:

A319, 320, 321 and 332, 343s and also B738s and, i am very sure, B739ERs in the future.


User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9484 times:

Imagine you are Turkish Airlines, with both 738s and A320s in your fleet. You can add more of either, depending on the best offer available from the manufacturer at the time. A nice position to be in, in some ways...

User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3741 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9454 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting SU184 (Reply 4):
'm afraid this is not right, EgyptAir, Air China, China Southern, Air Berlin, SAS are among those who fly both aircrafts.

SAA also. They currently fly both the 738 and A319 on domestic routes in South Africa. SAA has also flown the A320, I don't know if they still do.

Quoting yowza (Reply 5):
I could be wrong but hasn't US Airways been operating both 737s and 320 family birds for almost 15 years?

US Airways has never flown the 800, only the older 200, 300 and 400 Series. This thread is about airlines who fly both the 737NG and A32X aircraft. If the topic was about airlines flying the A32X and the 737 of any variant, then the list would be a lot bigger.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9354 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
It seems they fly the Airbus jets more intra-Turkey, with a slightly tighter config, while the B738s fly more regional routes
Quoting sw733 (Reply 3):
Agreed...the A320s certainly end up, in my experience, more internally, in places like Ankara, Antalya, Eskişehir, Adana, etc.; The Boeing's, on the other hand, end up more in Amsterdam, Brussels, Frankfurt, Berlin, Rome, etc. Again, just my experience...

There is an operational reason for that.

The previously ordered A320s are lower gross weight versions (73,500kgs) while 737-800s are (79,000kgs) and thus have longer legs as a result.

However as part of the recent Airbus orders, Airbus threw in higher weights for the A320 and they will be uprated to 77,000kgs.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9176 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 9):
US Airways has never flown the 800, only the older 200, 300 and 400 Series. This thread is about airlines who fly both the 737NG and A32X aircraft. If the topic was about airlines flying the A32X and the 737 of any variant, then the list would be a lot bigger.

Fair enough, but would you agree that my point stands? That past a certain sub-fleet of each X type it's perfectly viable/fine to run them side by side?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8974 times:

are the engined the same? meaning do the A320 have V2500 or CFM engines? if they have CFM engines..than at least there is a degree of engine commonality with the 738s.


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8706 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):
It is all political - nothing more.

Keeping both the US and the EU as "best friends" - just imagine where turkey is located!

Or financial. In MS's case, I belieive they simply got a sweetened deal from Boeing to lure them back from Airbus.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offline777KLM From China, joined Apr 2005, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8589 times:

Quoting cerecl (Reply 6):
Quoting SU184 (Reply 4):
I'm afraid this is not right, EgyptAir, Air China, China Southern, Air Berlin, SAS are among those who fly both aircrafts

One can add China Eastern to this list.

What about ANA, Shenzhen Airlines, Sky Airlines (Turkey), Thomson Airways and XL Airways France?
Are the 737-800's in the Austrian Airlines the result of the acquisition of Lauda?



Next flight: AMS-PEK
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6834 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8581 times:

Let's face it-there is no rational, business reason to buy both the A320 and 738. Any marginal difference in capability is vastly overshadowed by the expense of maintaining two types and two sets of crews. It is obviously political.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1307 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
Let's face it-there is no rational, business reason to buy both the A320 and 738. Any marginal difference in capability is vastly overshadowed by the expense of maintaining two types and two sets of crews.

Au contraire mon ami, under certain circumstances (sufficiently large fleet, maintenance capabilities) it may very well be beneficial for an airline to operate products from different vendors in the same segment. Allows them to do a bit of playing one against the other, thereby achieving discounts that might outweigh the financial benefits of operating a sole-sourced fleet.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
It is obviously political.

In the case of TK, on that we are in full agreement.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6834 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8469 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 16):

Au contraire mon ami, under certain circumstances (sufficiently large fleet, maintenance capabilities) it may very well be beneficial for an airline to operate products from different vendors in the same segment. Allows them to do a bit of playing one against the other, thereby achieving discounts that might outweigh the financial benefits of operating a sole-sourced fleet.

If that is the case, why don't more carriers do it? I think both Boeing and Airbus have advanced far enough in understanding the business that they are going to do their all-out best for their loyal customers. Both of them, and the airlines as well, are interested in developing and maintaining long term relationships. With this in mind, the costs of maintaining two different fleets of the same capability is going to be far more than any special favors that could be wangled from one manufacturer or the other. If it were not the case more airlines would do it. Are there any other airlines (other than Air Berlin, which I believe has switched back and forth a couple of times) that does it? All other fleets I know of that have both are because of mergers.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8218 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
Let's face it-there is no rational, business reason to buy both the A320 and 738. Any marginal difference in capability is vastly overshadowed by the expense of maintaining two types and two sets of crews. It is obviously political.

Sure, because they'r enot in the business of making money.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 17):
If that is the case, why don't more carriers do it?

Do the following responses answer your question?

Quoting SU184 (Reply 4):
I'm afraid this is not right, EgyptAir, Air China, China Southern, Air Berlin, SAS are among those who fly both aircrafts.
Quoting cerecl (Reply 6):
One can add China Eastern to this list. In addition, QF operates 738 while its subsidiary JQ operates 320.
Quoting American 767 (Reply 9):
SAA also.
Quoting 777KLM (Reply 14):
What about ANA, Shenzhen Airlines, Sky Airlines (Turkey), Thomson Airways and XL Airways France?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17355 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8364 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 9):
SAA also. They currently fly both the 738 and A319 on domestic routes in South Africa. SAA has also flown the A320, I don't know if they still do.

I think that was mostly incompetence at SA HQ.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
Do the following responses answer your question?

Most of those carriers are either in the same boat (ie all of the Chinese carriers), or acquired them through mergers. It's rare to find any major carrier that has both types in their fleet.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6834 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):

Do the following responses answer your question?

I did not realize that there were so many. But the question remains, are these airlines making money? How many of them switched from one to the other because of problems, and do not intend to buy any more of the first? People, even those who are running airlines, sometimes make stupid decisions. Are any of these airlines planning to maintain both fleets, and not phase one of them out?



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1232 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8293 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
There is an operational reason for that.

The previously ordered A320s are lower gross weight versions (73,500kgs) while 737-800s are (79,000kgs) and thus have longer legs as a result.

However as part of the recent Airbus orders, Airbus threw in higher weights for the A320 and they will be uprated to 77,000kgs.

I assumed as much. Thanks for the info. I have to say, those airbus aircraft seemed a little cramped compared to their 73NG stablemates. If they are designed to stay in the country primarily though, I can't say I blame them.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

Quoting 777KLM (Reply 14):
Are the 737-800's in the Austrian Airlines the result of the acquisition of Lauda?

Yes. When Austrian took control of Lauda Air in late 2000, Lauda already had some 737NGs in the fleet with more on the way.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently onlinedalce From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):
At german airports you see changing equipment from day to day from TK:

A319, 320, 321 and 332, 343s and also B738s and, i am very sure, B739ERs in the future.


The same goes for AMS, we see 320, 321, 332, 343, 738 and this week even a 773ER was planned ( diversed due to fog ) to AMS. It seems TK is a very flexible airline, like for example LH is when it comes to short term a/c changes.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8218 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6342 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Most of those carriers are either in the same boat (ie all of the Chinese carriers), or acquired them through mergers. It's rare to find any major carrier that has both types in their fleet.

Indeed. But to assume that the only reason is political doesn't make much sense either. You have to consider favorable aquisition costs and different missions.
This is another reason:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
The previously ordered A320s are lower gross weight versions (73,500kgs) while 737-800s are (79,000kgs) and thus have longer legs as a result.

The gorss weight factor goes beyond the range. Landing fees are calculated based on gross weight, no? It makes no sense to be paying higher landing fees if you don't need that extra capability. It may make more sense to have 2 entirely seperate types for domestic vs. international routes. Only TK's management would know. It also gives you greater bargaining power for future acquisitions.


25 laca773 : I've been wondering how happy OS is with their Lauda Air 736/73G/73Hs compared to their Airbus narrowbody fleet? I think they probably like the 73G/7
26 MCOflyer : You guys are forgetting the new UA. They fly the A319/A320 and 73G/738/739/739ER together. Time will tell if they choose to keep both the 737 and A320
27 SEPilot : But that is because of a merger, not a decision to operate both fleets. Be assured that from here on only one type will be bought.
28 cuban8 : Interesting. The B738 is definitely more roomy. But as far as I know, most pilots I know in TK wants to be on the A320-fleet just to avoid the big am
29 BasilFawlty : The last 737 classics left the fleet over 2 years ago.
30 tk1244 : Some A320/A321's have V2500 engines while others have CFM engines. Don't be too sure about that. According to ch-aviation.ch three Boeing 737-4Y0's a
31 cerecl : I can't say about the others, but CA, CZ and MU are all making money. The coexistence of A320/B737 in their fleet is due to 1. A need to obtain capac
32 umit : I find it difficult to believe that an order of TK's 3-5 billion of any aircraft is or should be political .On the one hand we are talking about an ec
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