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Six Story Runway Is ‘preferred’ Design At FLL  
User currently offlinenjdevilsin03 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 728 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 26695 times:

Six story runway is ‘preferred’ design at Broward’s airport

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news...six_story_runway_is_preferred.html

An airport runway six stories tall, which stunned the public and county commissioners a month ago, has been selected as the preferred design for Broward County’s controversial expansion.

The $791 million expanded runway at Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood International Airport will slowly slope upward to a height of about 65 feet, an eye-popping design that airport officials said Tuesday will be safe.

The runway rises gradually over a span of 8,000 feet as it heads east, until it reaches its full six-story height and ends abruptly with a retaining wall. Planes will land about 1,500 feet away from the sky-high edge, county consultants said.

The runway expansion, which has a ribbon cutting date set for Sept. 18, 2014, is easily the most controversial project of the County Commission.


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65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 26618 times:

Now that sounds interesting, there is no doubt that the airport needs expansion just not sure this is the best idea. Would love to see some pictures!


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 26551 times:

It's less than a 1% grade, hardly much to worry about operationally. But in the flat state of Florida, will be an EYESORE.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3475 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26469 times:

I'll be the first to go out on a limb and say that this runway 6 stories off the ground will never be built.

User currently offlinepl4nekr4zy From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 465 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26433 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
It's less than a 1% grade

Actually, it's 1.3% according to the article...

[Edited 2010-12-07 23:18:59]


"Don't forget to bring a towel!"
User currently offlinecaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26498 times:

This is the presentation and the final plan for FLL it includes an image of the grade
http://www.broward.org/Airport/Commu...sterplanpresentation51710final.pdf

They also plan from what is seen to have both ternimal 3 and 4 into one terminal to bring the total gates at FLL to 79 from the current 57.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineflyusairways From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26430 times:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is the reason such a large slope is necessary? Is it simply so that the interstate and railroad tracks can pass underneath?

[Edited 2010-12-07 22:23:28]


All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26406 times:

Anyone have pictures of this they can post/link?


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19698 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26344 times:

This looks horribly illogical. Planes have to taxi out to the far end... Why not just tunnel the roads and whatnot under? Surely that's cheaper than moving half the planet's worth of earth.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26323 times:

Quoting flyusairways (Reply 6):
Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is the reason such a large slope is necessary? Is it simply so that the interstate and railroad tracks can pass underneath?

Yep. They're so hemmed in that they can't extend the runway without going over the existing interstate & railroad. I guess sloping the runway is cheaper than moving all the existing stuff.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):

Anyone have pictures of this they can post/link?

See slides 10 & 11 in the link in Reply 5.

Tom.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26288 times:

Quoting flyusairways (Reply 6):
Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is the reason such a large slope is necessary? Is it simply so that the interstate and railroad tracks can pass underneath?

Basically, yes. In Florida, the water tables are too close to the surface. Therefore, tunneling a highway or railroad is not possible. If you did, the tunnels would be flooded all the time. This is the reason that Miami's Metro is mostly elevated with a small portion on the surface. None of it is underground.


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26241 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):

It's less than a 1% grade,

We've got 0.8% over 6,300 and it's pretty noticeable.


I can't decide if i love or hate this idea... It's got a brilliant ridiculousness to it.


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4502 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 26227 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
I'll be the first to go out on a limb and say that this runway 6 stories off the ground will never be built.

I'm going to say yes it will. Because of this:

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
In Florida, the water tables are too close to the surface.

I've spent quite a bit of time in Florida and can attest to this. I'm certain the water table is the exact reason this proposal was made and accepted. It will be built.


User currently offlinenycdave From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 26077 times:

Agreed that it makes sense. Building a tunnel in saturated soil isn't terribly easy, or cheap -- among other issues, you have to build a "gravity slab" to keep the whole assemblage from being buoyed up by the water!

Besides, Florida could use some topographic varation... even if it IS man-made!  


User currently offlineflyusairways From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 25996 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
In Florida, the water tables are too close to the surface

Ah, that makes perfect sense.

I'm willing to bet that they will end up making some Discovery Channel program on this project if the proposal is confirmed.



All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3203 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 25933 times:

Seems like there is plenty of space to re-route US 1 to the east.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu162/JDawgphoto/Fll.jpg

US 1 is only a divided expressway to the east of the airport. It reverts back to city streets with traffic lights immediately north and south of the airport. Kinda pointless; I don't see why they just don't divert it to the east and square it off some on the way south since its reverts back to city street anyway.

And what was the thinking behind that ridiculous 270 degree entrance ramp coming down from the north? Looks like a simple 80 degree entrance would've worked while still preserving the space for the terminal 1 expansion that was planned.



FLYi
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1204 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 25808 times:

They could always take a page from Phoenix's book and build a 100' bridge over their taxiways! I think this is kind of an interesting idea, but I kinda get the feeling that they're doing this moreso because they just can. My guess is that there are other options that are less extreme. I'll be interested to see if this preferred design actually becomes a reality.

User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 25568 times:

The problem will be that if someone at the runway holding point has a problem and needs to taxi back to gate, because of the single parallel taxiway and with no connection until basically 2/3 back down because of the grade, you'll end up with a huge operational problem to taxi the guy back on the runway or stopping any more departures from coming up the taxiway for 5 to 10 minutes. It's may not be a big issue all the time but certainly during peak hours when the demand is high, this is a big business risk.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 25423 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 16):
They could always take a page from Phoenix's book and build a 100' bridge over their taxiways!

I think building 100' bridges would be way more expensive than moving some soil around and chucking some hard core on top.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3349 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25245 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
Basically, yes. In Florida, the water tables are too close to the surface. Therefore, tunneling a highway or railroad is not possible. If you did, the tunnels would be flooded all the time. This is the reason that Miami's Metro is mostly elevated with a small portion on the surface. None of it is underground.

Then again, it's not impossible. We have the US 1 tunnel under the New River just a few miles north of the airport, and the new Port of Miami access tunnel being built to the south.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25158 times:

Sounds similar to Funchal in Madeira - similar sort of undertaking, minus the slope of course.

Anyone have any pics?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 25142 times:

First I thought 6 runways on top of each other for planes to land on each level 

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2597 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 25049 times:
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That is very interesting. That area is so open as it is, I can only image the amount of lightning strikes, then there is the issue of under-shoot/over-shoot. Wow.


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinewexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 25051 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 21):
First I thought 6 runways on top of each other for planes to land on each level

Me too. I think the thread title is slightly misleading!



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 24975 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
I'll be the first to go out on a limb and say that this runway 6 stories off the ground will never be built.

Don't you mean the runway will never get off the ground?



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25 bluewhale18210 : That is nothing. SEA had to build a retention wall and fill in hundreds of feet worth of dirt in order to put in 34L/16R in place. Cost was something
26 upsmd11 : After seeing some of the pictures this runway seems to be very similar to the newest runway at ATL. Six stories tall on stilts would look tall but if
27 RussianJet : Have to say, the title doesn't really suggest it's merely going to be a thread about a runway with a bit of a slope.
28 Aesma : Yeah, looking at the renderings it doesn't look dramatic, on the first one I thought for a moment they were showing the other end of the runway becaus
29 Post contains links rfields5421 : No - nothing like Funchal. According to the drawing in the link above - they are simply planning to fill dirt enough to make the runway go over the h
30 Post contains images AerLingusA330 : I'm surprised the FAA approved this. It seems too far out of their safety "comfort zone" to allow this to be built. Nonetheless, if it is, it sure wil
31 NADC10Fan : It's more dramatic than you think. As a resident of one of Ft. Lauderdale's western 'burbs I've been following this project fairly closely. I've got t
32 Peteinmiami : Well according to what I can see on the link provided on reply 5 by Caribbean484, that is not the case, there is a parallel taxiway to the runway wit
33 rfields5421 : There are several airports around the world with greater slopes on the runway and high speed exits for both uphill and downhill landings. Why would t
34 Post contains images mffoda : Maybe we just start another trash landfill at that location and pave over it in 10 or 20 years?? And we could use the methane gas to produce electrici
35 ALTF4 : It looks like that forms the "loop road", allowing pickup and drop-off traffic for the terminal to loop back around, as well as funnel all traffic in
36 rolfen : I remember a while ago reading about some sort of arresting tiles that can be laid at the thresholds of the runway. That could help.
37 rfields5421 : I'm not disagreeing that this is the best solution - but the new MIA runway is less than 800 feet from the old runway - not enough separation to allo
38 NADC10Fan : Pete, I spoke about this with an FAA tower guy who I see on a regular basis. According to him, the problem is the incline makes it impossible to have
39 Post contains links and images Coronado990 : I often wondered what the slope angle is at Funchal leading up to the bridge. Looks more than 1.5 degrees but that could be an illusion. Does anyone
40 rfields5421 : I only found an airport diagram on a flight simulator site (VATSIM) which are usually correct. The Rwy 05 landing end is 44.67M and the "Bridge" end i
41 gr8circle : Once built, from a distance will it be noticeable to the eye...? The fact that the runway slopes upwards at one end.....? Also, does this have any imp
42 AerLingusA330 : I gathered that info. from the header on page 7 of the PDF in reply 5.
43 Post contains images N62NA : Yes! I thought the exact same thing. Great minds think alike
44 baylorairbear : Building over the roads and trains is a necessary and excellent idea. With the proper lighting and landscaping, I can see this coming out to look qui
45 Post contains links rampart : Reminds me how the new runway at Laughlin/Bullhead City (KIFP) used to have a L O N G switchback taxiway down the face of the mesa to the level of th
46 slcdeltarumd11 : I don't know much about FLL. What is the reason this needs to be done? Does FLL seem that many widebodies that need this length for long distance miss
47 Post contains links PITrules : Looks like that space was to be preserved for a final build out of 3 parallel runways: "County commissioners agreed in December 2003 to build a secon
48 COS777 : When you need to build a runway, that solution has some drawbacks... At least one thing they have going for them is that if an airplane is struggling
49 Post contains links caribbean484 : I think this rendition will clear up the plans the County Commission has for FLL both showing the runway gradient and new terminal 4 http://www.browar
50 Post contains links and images Aloha717200 : From that report: This looks halfway better. There are two parallel taxiways for half the runway's length, but that still leaves an issue with bottle
51 njdevilsin03 : I think its about 75 percent of the time planes take off from 9L and 9R... the Eastern end bottle necks wouldn't be that bad in my opinion and I guess
52 ikramerica : 65/8000 is less than 1%. Or does the other end start below sea level? Or is the runway level part way then sloped?
53 cloudyapple : With my airport planning experience it looks like the airfield has been designed for mixed mode with RHZs and RETs for all 4 runways. 27L has actuall
54 CO 757-300 : does the elevation of the runway have anything to do with the port and those big tall crane things associated with it?
55 NADC10Fan : When departing 9R, I don't foresee much problem ... there's plenty of access at that end to the runway. The problem is when arriving 9R, because you
56 ScottB : That's addressed in the presentation linked by caribbean484 above. The Port Everglades cranes and FPL power lines are the reason for the upward slope
57 cloudyapple : That's my primitive assessment without having any information available except that 1 chart. Usually we will define a primary mode of ops, a few seco
58 KDCA : Why not just push the threshold of 27L as far east as possible within the current boundaries of the airport and widen it to 150' and make it strong en
59 NADC10Fan : Oooh, missed that! Thanks for drawing it to attention. The FPL lines are the main consideration between the two issues, looks like. It's a little cur
60 MaverickM11 : I thought FLL faced some pretty stiff community opposition to any operations on 13/31 9R/27L?
61 ScottB : The east end of 9L is a couple of thousand feet further west than the proposed east end of 9R, so in an engine-out scenario, an aircraft taking off w
62 PITrules : I believe that's correct; and that's what I gather from the quoted paragraph as well.
63 NADC10Fan : Yeah. After replying, I went and looked at some close over-heads of the area; while I still don't think the PE cranes in the container-ship area woul
64 SSTsomeday : Well, the road tunnels into Boston airport which were recently completed are water-tight for similar reasons. The swampy ground in the area was froze
65 cloudyapple : The take off climb surface is 2% from the end of the runway. So it would be good if someone is able to determine if the cranes and what not infringe
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