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Emirates NOW Largest Long Haul Airline  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15589 times:

According to the article LH was leading this market until few days ago.
Well done Emirates, Keep discovering http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...airline-wirtschaftswoche-says.html
http://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen-maerk...irates-haengt-lufthansa-ab-449128/ (German)

[Edited 2010-12-08 11:12:29]

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 583 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15471 times:
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World's largest fleet? I'm more interested in a measure of RPMs/RPKs.

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15395 times:

it's the largest long-haul FLEET (only because they have nothing smaller than an A333).

but EK also use them to fly to Doha, Bahmain, Muscat, and everything right next door.

a medium-and-long-haul route should be defined as any flight that requiers 6hrs+ flight time in both directions. So roughly : 5000+ km

so the true definition of "largest long-haul airline" should be available/sold revenue seat miles on all 5000+ km routes. (that means LHR-DXB qualifies, but YVR-MIA doesn't).


User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15374 times:

EK has been on top for Scheduled international passenger-kilometers flown for a couple of years now.

Here's the rank for 2009 (in millions)
1 Emirates - 118,284
2 Lufthansa - 118,264
3 Air France - 116,711
4 British Airways - 109,402
5 Singapore Airlines - 81,552
6 Cathay Pacific - 81,086
7 American Airlines - 76,301
8 KLM - 73,472
9 Delta Air Lines - 70,725
10 United Airlines - 68,073

Expect EK to increase it's lead significantly for 2010.

Side note: Delta might make it to the top three.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15232 times:

Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):
Side note: Delta might make it to the top three.

You might want to add the Post Merger UA up there as well.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14327 times:

Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):
EK has been on top for Scheduled international passenger-kilometers flown for a couple of years now.

To those of us in North America, though, that's sort of a silly/arbitrary measure. DXB-MCT is about the same length as ORD-STL.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14200 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2):
it's the largest long-haul FLEET (only because they have nothing smaller than an A333)

Actually, A332...


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13798 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 4):
Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):
Side note: Delta might make it to the top three.

You might want to add the Post Merger UA up there as well.


2009 numbers....

DL/NW 117,500 rpk
UA/CO 131,415 rpk

EDIT: fixed as I used ASMs for one and RSMs for another.

[Edited 2010-12-08 21:53:38]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13775 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
To those of us in North America, though, that's sort of a silly/arbitrary measure. DXB-MCT is about the same length as ORD-STL.

Ha! I'm actually waiting in MCT for this very flight!

That's why RPK is the preferred measure. It's distance weighted.

[Edited 2010-12-08 21:55:48]


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinefasouli From Saudi Arabia, joined May 2010, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13520 times:

i believe that emirates are going to lead all long haul flights and it is . what airline wants 150 planes in their fleet i think emirates has a very good future.

User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12270 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 8):
That's why RPK is the preferred measure. It's distance weighted.

Right, but what was being compared was INT'L RPKs...DXB-MCT is an international flight, but ORD-STL is not. Comparing airlines on international RPKs arbitrarily favors airlines which operate out of small nations (EK, BA, SQ, etc) since basically ALL flights are international. Compare this to American carriers which operate domestic flights upwards of 7000km.

Honestly, though, who cares? Bigger doesn't always mean better or more profitable, although EK is doing well at the moment.


User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12046 times:

No matter what the metric, EK is right up there in long-haul, and is either N°1 or will soon be N°1 anyways. Congratulations EK!!

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11404 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 10):
Right, but what was being compared was INT'L RPKs...DXB-MCT is an international flight, but ORD-STL is not.

Fact of the matter is JFK-YYZ if such flight is run also qualifies as international. It does not necessarily discriminate large countries. In contrary, larger countries have more ports to support international flights. AA runs flights to Europe from multiple cities whereas EK only run flights from DXB. It's all very fair. Just that American carriers' emphasis is more on domestics. You can't make your own rules.



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10242 times:

Strategically speaking, I wonder how healthy this is.

Folks not actually bound for Dubai who continually choose airlines like EK over their home (or destination) carriers should not be surprised one day when their ability to travel from country A to country B is subject to the dictates of people in country C.

Not good.

[Edited 2010-12-09 05:02:55]

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10085 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 12):
Fact of the matter is JFK-YYZ if such flight is run also qualifies as international. It does not necessarily discriminate large countries. In contrary, larger countries have more ports to support international flights. AA runs flights to Europe from multiple cities whereas EK only run flights from DXB. It's all very fair. Just that American carriers' emphasis is more on domestics. You can't make your own rules.

that's why it's more fair to measure largest "long-haul" airline as opposed to largest "international" airline

esp the term "INTL" will get into political mess when you start debating how you count HKG-PEK or TPE-PVG


User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 454 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10072 times:

AF 116,711
KL 73,472

AFKL = 190,183



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9920 times:

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 13):

Well sir, it seems that you are not involved with us in something called globalization.
As it happens in your country, there is a country that exporting all over the world like hell with low quality products and people buying them without thinking, because of the $$$.

If Emirates can take me from point A to B with a short stop in DXB at a half price (sometimes) and i enjoy the latest technology and winning inflight services, why would i pay for my home country airline which is not thinking of my pocket, am i forced to fill their pocket??

Furthermore, there is a say that i learned which can be applies here, if you are in Rome be a Roman, so i see everybody goes to their destination via EK why i would be on the opposite side of the coalition.
In the 70s, such thing like EK now used to be called capitalism, i remember a case study in my international politics class many years ago about the arrival of Macdonalds in Europe. You will never believe that MacDonalds survived and made success until today.


User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7702 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9580 times:

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 16):
Well sir, it seems that you are not involved with us in something called globalization.
As it happens in your country, there is a country that exporting all over the world like hell with low quality products and people buying them without thinking, because of the $$$.

When you consider that the US now has one of the largest trade deficits among the industrial nations, their manufacturing base is diminishing due to out-sourcing, un-employment is up, dollar is in the dumps, budgets are in deficit, they are the epitome of globalization, it is almost to the point where American goods are an endangered species  

The market from America to the Middle East is essentially non-American, American carriers have essentially neglected that sector, previously Americans travelled via Europe, as the immigrant population in the US continues to grow, the market will increase for more direct flights, not sure the American carriers will be able to gain market share in the near future, a bond is being built with the customers, unless the service declines, it will be hard to break, fare sales have proven not to work on international travel as there is a governmental "artificial" limit, certain taxes must be paid.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9552 times:

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 13):


I can see your point and it is a valid consideration. Problem is that the origin and destination "home carriers" may not offer the most convenient route and/ or timings. Alliances and code-share arrangements have reduced the choices for point-to-point travel with just one carrier. For many destinations that I fly to, two or more changes of aircraft and/ or carrier are necessary. For example, using origin and destination carriers, if I fly to HAM I must fly to SIN (or maybe BKK) on QF. I then connect with LH to FRA and then have to change again to continue on to HAM. Alternatively, I can fly PER-DXB-HAM.

I would gladly fly with QF if they served more destinations and not simply sold seats on other carriers, but I see no point in multiple transfers (and the associated increased risk of missed connections, baggage going astray) when a more direct and timely route is available. Given that there are no non-stop flights from PER to Europe, the Middle East (with the exception of EK to DXB) and Africa (with the exception of SA to JNB) passengers here will always be subject to a country "C". The question is, I suppose, which country C is most amenable?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 14):
that's why it's more fair to measure largest "long-haul" airline as opposed to largest "international" airline

Agreed. Let's look at it this way: if WN, DL, LH, and EK all flew the same number of RPKs (they don't), by which measures does it make sense to differentiate them? Domestic versus international doesn't tell us anything, I don't think. Short haul versus long haul does.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9150 times:

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 16):
If Emirates can take me from point A to B with a short stop in DXB at a half price (sometimes) and i enjoy the latest technology and winning inflight services, why would i pay for my home country airline which is not thinking of my pocket, am i forced to fill their pocket??

Because I wouldn't want to wake up one day and realize that people halfway across the world decide whether I get to fly from A to B or not, and how. This is not a slam against the UAE or EK...I wouldn't want it to be Lufthansa either.

The downside of the globalization that you mentioned is that countries can lose the capability to provide certain critical services for themselves. I think that international air travel - unlike fast food - has strategic implications.

We've seen plenty of times how nations use natural resources (oil/gas, water, food, metals) as a bargaining chip against each other in the event of a disagreement. Services are the critical resources of the 21st Century...if I were from a smaller nation with one international carrier, I'd be really concerned about EK driving them out of the long-haul business. And I'd support them even if that meant a higher ticket price and no PTV.


User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9101 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 18):
I can see your point and it is a valid consideration. Problem is that the origin and destination "home carriers" may not offer the most convenient route and/ or timings. Alliances and code-share arrangements have reduced the choices for point-to-point travel with just one carrier. For many destinations that I fly to, two or more changes of aircraft and/ or carrier are necessary. For example, using origin and destination carriers, if I fly to HAM I must fly to SIN (or maybe BKK) on QF. I then connect with LH to FRA and then have to change again to continue on to HAM. Alternatively, I can fly PER-DXB-HAM.

I would gladly fly with QF if they served more destinations and not simply sold seats on other carriers, but I see no point in multiple transfers (and the associated increased risk of missed connections, baggage going astray) when a more direct and timely route is available. Given that there are no non-stop flights from PER to Europe, the Middle East (with the exception of EK to DXB) and Africa (with the exception of SA to JNB) passengers here will always be subject to a country "C". The question is, I suppose, which country C is most amenable?

And this is the other side of it...if your home carrier makes it impossible to support them, what can you do?  

Again, I want to be clear that I don't think EK should be banished from the skies - but by the same token it's not unreasonable for other countries' carriers to get some support from their home populations and governments to remain competitive...in the interest of maintaining a vital capability.

[Edited 2010-12-09 06:38:08]

User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8694 times:

It was only a matter of time. I wonder how far they will stretch out their lead in the future!!!!


''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8545 times:

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 21):

Agreed. EK may have come a long way since 1985 and congratulations to them. But competition remains vital to the passenger, shippers and aviation in general not just because it may result in lower fares, but because of the greater choice it offers. More carriers being successful benefits all of us.


User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8157 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 23):
Agreed. EK may have come a long way since 1985 and congratulations to them. But competition remains vital to the passenger, shippers and aviation in general not just because it may result in lower fares, but because of the greater choice it offers. More carriers being successful benefits all of us.

Not to go too far off the topic, this is why I get a chuckle out of the Boeing vs. Airbus threads...either one of those companies packing up would be the worst thing for aviation.

I wish Douglas were still around  


25 RamblinMan : Neither can you...and setting the standard as international vs domestic is about as arbitrary as it can get. We're comparing the airlines themselves,
26 Cubsrule : No, but if the products and prices are identical, why shouldn't you choose the "home" product?
27 huaiwei : I fail to buy your point, although I have seen this comment multiple times especially in those silly US vs Europe comments when Americans frequently
28 Cubsrule : It's not an issue of favouritism, at least from my perspective. It's an issue of utility. I can get a sense for how WN and EK compare using RPKs, but
29 Post contains images huaiwei : The word "favouritism" was used in the previous comment, which sparked my response, as it sparked yours. Are WN and EK really not comparable? They wo
30 Cubsrule : No to both questions, and to be clear, I'm not arguing that the comparison between WN and EK is a perfect one, largely for the reasons you've elucida
31 Post contains images slcdeltarumd11 : Were just do everything better than them....
32 huaiwei : Useful for what purpose? If the question was merely to ask which airline has a bigger international operation, I will think International RPKs rather
33 Cubsrule : Any purpose broader than the one you've suggested (who has a bigger international operation). But I'm not sure asking whether WN or EK has a larger i
34 Post contains images huaiwei : Well international RPKs are not meant for you to compare domestic operations or total sizes of airlines, are they? But if you want to merely compare
35 Cubsrule : I'd even go further - it's the best way to compare international operations. The problem I have is with the normative implication (that the fact that
36 AirNZ : Hmmm! any airline can use it's aircraft on any route it chooses. I remember a time 747's flew in the US much like you describe....does that somehow n
37 Post contains images CharlieNoble : Not veiled at all. I am openly advocating a certain level of protectionism here Much like some nations find themselves overly reliant on others for c
38 flyby519 : How long until EK joins a global alliance? I know they publicly stated they arent going to, but its a matter of time before it happens.
39 UAEflyer : Why join alliance, Emirates have a strategic business model that doesn't work with any alliance. Even in future, if you see how EK works, you will fi
40 cloudyapple : I'm sure when we see topics like "AA now largest domestic airline" it's all very fair and justified.
41 Cubsrule : Huh? You've totally lost me. . .
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