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FAA Loses Key Info Of 119000 Aircraft  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8949 times:

Did a search about and found nothing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101210/ap_on_bi_ge/us_misplaced_planes


This could become a real headache for the FAA ...
How can something like this happen with all the technology we have this days ?

Thoughs ?

G.

[Edited 2010-12-10 04:18:48]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8902 times:

That's de-regulation for ya...

I'm not in the least surprised by this, in the last few years we've had a few incidents/accidents over here involving N-reg aircraft - and the AAIU have had to 'seek out' who owns them during their investigations...

It's kinda funny how the US has spend soooooo much money on 'US national security' (I love that oxymoron) and only now realises the backdoor has been WIDE open for years!



It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8760 times:

Typical US govt. incompetence.


I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAerLingusA330 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8703 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
How can something like this happen with all the technology we have this days ?

This incident speaks for itself. What can we expect - it's a typical government agency, real efficient and productive.   



Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
User currently offlineCanadianPylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8593 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This could become a real headache for the FAA ...
How can something like this happen with all the technology we have this days ?

Technology cannot make up for bad process and procedure.



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8560 times:

Who will the FAA fine for this? Because it clearly is not them who messed up.   

User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8544 times:

The article does list some of the inherent procedural items which created this issue, what seems to have been missed is a proper way to update the original registration records.
a/c are inspected all the time, so haing inspectors update the registration records carried on board the a/c seems simple enough, then you get into the qualifications of the inspectors as in qualified to do paper work, who will pay for the additional work load, etc. etc. etc.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8530 times:

At least the aircraft weren't in the air at the time ...


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8481 times:

When I got my license just ten years ago, my certificate was printed on a piece of paper and I had to cut it out. That was just a few short years ago.


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8461 times:

Quoting Part147 (Reply 1):
That's de-regulation for ya...

How is that any fault of deregulation? Maybe it is just an incompetent US Government and employees? Sort of like the ones that run Arlington National Cemetery that have managed to bury 8 service members on top of each other in the same grave? Place blame where blame is due.

Honestly, it is no surprise. Disheartening, disappointing, and maddening, but not unexpected or shocking.

I am assuming that every single aircraft will need to have the registration checked and verified.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8434 times:

Quoting CanadianPylon (Reply 4):
Technology cannot make up for bad process and procedure.

Thanks to all for your opinions. The thing that amaze me is the big proportion of aircraft with confusing or incomplete information. About my question about how the technology couldn't avoid this, it's weird, because you can imagine that the history of life of a big machine like an aircraft should be traceable in time. I know the comparisons can be very unfair and useless, but if I give the plate number of my car here in the Registro Civil ( a government office where all the people and vehicles of the country are registered ) they can print within seconds a Certificate with all the history of my car, the engine number, the previous owners, legal problems or fines of the car... and there are a couple of millions of cars in Chile... if we have here the computers to do this OK, how the FAA can't do the same with less than 400.000 aircraft ?
Maybe one can screw up 500, 1000 regs.... but almost 120.000 looks ridiculous .... or Am I wrong ?

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8377 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Did a search about and found nothing.

Did they look under the cushions? Sometimes it falls out of your pocket when you are resting between mntc checks.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8309 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Did a search about and found nothing.

Sounds like you work for the FAA ...



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlinecentralma From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8264 times:

The US Coast Guard maintains an equivalent registry of "documented" US vessels. They send a letter to every vessel owner every year to confirm ownership, address, and vessel usage. The letter only needs to be signed and returned to maintain the documentation. Very simple, costs the owner only return postage, but effective in probing/maintaining the records annually. The USCG then sends an updated documentation certificate on receipt of the confirmation. Documentation is year-to-year. Yes, it costs the government much more than a few postage stamps to do this/process this, but presumably nearly all of this is automated....and it means the database has current addresses, and catches unreported sales by at least removing the old owner/address and revoking the documentation validity. The documentation database is important to security and law enforcement (smuggling interdiction and fisheries enforcement).

(Many vessels can be state registered rather than federally documented...state registrations are for one or two years, and the renewal process there also validates owners/addresses)

The USCG centralized and privatized (through use of a bid contractor, the USCG is still responsible for the activity) all the documentation work some years ago...improved the system and minimized former regional long delays. Outsourcing is not always bad or more expensive, especially if the activity is necessary but not your organization's prime competency.

[There is a long international history of maritime vessel ownership paperwork that predates aircraft by several centuries, allowing liens to be logged against a vessel. The US vessel documentation is thus effectively a formal title as well; I don't know if FAA aircraft registration has THAT equivalency.]


User currently offlinetootallsd From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8255 times:
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This is so absurd. It is like 1/3 of the cars on the road not being registered.

User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Did a search about and found nothing.
1/3rd Of USA Aircraft Registrations Questionable (by ltbewr Dec 10 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Actually it was, you just didnt look hard enough...its still on the first page too...



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8207 times:

Even if the database were up-to-date and 100 percent accurate, would that keep drug dealers from using phony registration numbers? It seems the cases the article points out would occur regardless - someone in another country looks up a similar aircraft and puts that number on the aircraft's tail. Obviously if you seize the aircraft, you'll discover it's phony, but by that point it doesn't really matter.


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8179 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Did they look under the cushions?
Quoting Grid (Reply 12):
Sounds like you work for the FAA ...

   

Funny stuff....

Humbly i had to say, I think I could do a better work with my old Excel database...

The article says the problem started after the 9/11 attacks.... and nobody did something in the past 9 years ??? Ouch...!!
Amazing.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 2):
Typical US govt. incompetence.

Stupid baseless insults. Underfund regulatory agencies then calling them incompetent is like cutting off your legs then laughing when you can't run.


User currently offlinebravogolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8089 times:

I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry. Would someone with the numbers from the manufactures lists like to do the math and see what they come up with? There are probably single aircraft with several registrations in the system, to have that large a number.

User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8089 times:

Quoting bravogolf (Reply 19):
I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry. Would someone with the numbers from the manufactures lists like to do the math and see what they come up with? There are probably single aircraft with several registrations in the system, to have that large a number.

In some cases multiple aircraft with the same registered number. This is exactly what led to John and Martha's incident at VNY a few month's ago.


User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1547 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7950 times:

Quoting bravogolf (Reply 19):
I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry

Why? There are lots of airplanes out there. Heck, look back to the 1970's and how quickly the general aviation manufactures were pumping out airplanes. Then consider how many planes are built today. People don't just throw airplanes away like cars. Couple that with the fact that registrations never really expire (until the new system takes effect), I can believe it totally.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineCanadianPylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 2):
Typical US govt. incompetence.

Stupid baseless insults. Underfund regulatory agencies then calling them incompetent is like cutting off your legs then laughing when you can't run.

Agreed... This is a case of being told to 'do more with less' that has resulted in an inadequate system.

Wasn't there an article or discussion about the FAA losing flight plans because the system that held them was from the 70s and severely over-allocated?

I stand by my earlier statement about technology being able to hide bad processes or procedures. For best results, establish your processes and policies based on your requirements, and find the technology/tool to fulfill those requirements. If you let the technology dictate your requirements, you'll get something that looks pretty but doesn't work.



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6037 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 20):
In some cases multiple aircraft with the same registered number. This is exactly what led to John and Martha's incident at VNY a few month's ago.

  

The FAA maintains permanant records of EVERY aircraft registered, tracking both the registration, and airworthiness. Under a single N number can be a theoretical limitless number of aircraft, which is only reassigned when the aircraft is scrapped, written off, or the certificate is surrendered.

This is important when it comes to buying an aircraft, it's in the best interest of the buyer's due diligence to get a copy of the records from the FAA either directly, or have a broker get the information an provide a summary.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineAerLingusA330 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7849 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
Stupid baseless insults. Underfund regulatory agencies then calling them incompetent is like cutting off your legs then laughing when you can't run.

I disagree. To my knowledge, the FAA isn't underfunded. However, regardless whether they are or not, funding does not dictate how well processes are run or even how well designed the processes are. Do private companies say that they don't have enough money to be a good organization? If they do, they fold. If they don't, they find ways to adjust and work with what they have. There is too much bureaucracy in government agencies, such as the FAA, for any downsizing, reorganization, or re-adjusting. When they get into trouble they simply ask for more money instead of making changes. Why not? It's the government, they'll give it to us. This mentality continues until somebody (on the outside) finally speaks up.

Just like Gonzalo said in post 17, they knew about this problem since just after 9/11. That was nine years ago. There is clearly a flaw in the process since they have let this go for nearly 10 years. They attempt to place fault on others in nearly every other case but, in this disaster, they have no other party to blame but themselves.

I do agree with previous posts regarding the other equipment, such as the ATC system and even navigation networks. These are severely outdated and over loaded, and need funding to be replaced. However, this doesn't affect the registration problems because that is barely affected by severely outdated equipment. That is about the process.

[Edited 2010-12-10 10:04:14]


Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
25 413X3 : Knowing about the problem, and having a plan and funding to create a solution, are very different things.
26 PPVRA : The article says this database has been in disarray for decades. In this time they surely saw their budget go up and down, but didn't do anything abo
27 Post contains images Revelation : Maybe WikiLeaks will have a copy they can share with the FAA!
28 B727LVR : So If I give you a job to do, but dont give you any money to do it with, you can do just as good as if you were given a reasonable amount of money? I
29 petertenthije : Maybe the FAA can buy a copy of the airliners.net database!
30 PPVRA : The way they are going about to fix this issue doesn't seem very costly to the FAA. It's basically just changing some rules, and cancelling current r
31 Post contains images SPREE34 : Stupid? Your opinion. Baseless? Hardly. I worked there for 25 years. The place is overrun with under qualified blame placers who's budget management
32 IMissPiedmont : I agree, US government agenices, no matter how many apoligists there are, tend to be inept. And it's not the fault of the employees, it's just a fact
33 rcair1 : Sorry - I see far more incompitence in governmental organizations than in businesses - from local up (though local is usually better because they hav
34 n92r03 : I am of the belief that this "story" is a lot about nothing. Think about it. Would the feds leak a story about how many cars/trucks are missing "criti
35 Gonzalo : I don't want to disrespect the people working in the agencies over there, generalizations are usually unfair.... but when you see a ( moronic ) TSA a
36 DiamondFlyer : Why, a vast majority of the planes registered in the United States couldn't damage any significant building to the point that it would collapse. Nor
37 anshuk : They should get in touch with Julian Assange. He surely has a copy stashed away somewhere :P
38 Northwest727 : Probably the true reason why the FAA has enacted a new rule for GA...renewals of the Registration Certificates. Used to be that a registration certifi
39 Gonzalo : Well, maybe you can't collapse buildings... but you can carry a few hundreds of packages of cocaine, or dynamite, or whatever....you can hurt the soc
40 Post contains images JHCRJ700 : Only in America
41 DiamondFlyer : And having a new database will do nothing to stop this illegal activity. Not at all. As if someone who runs drugs checks to make sure that the plane
42 YVRLTN : Send in the TSA to search all cavities!!
43 Post contains images Starglider : Most likely the thugs, scoundrels and villains use the airliners.net database to concoct fake registrations . . . . . Only in America? . . I think no
44 B727LVR : Why not use the funding that is already in place, but put more of the respnisbilities with the local FISDO's? They are bascially an extension of the
45 DiamondFlyer : First, I think you mean FSDO. Secondly, they have other things they do on a daily basis. FAA nationally has people in charge of aircraft registration
46 B727LVR : Thanks for the correction, I thought it didn't look right. I understand they have their own duties, but what I am talking about is people located thr
47 N49WA : A couple of years ago I wanted to reserve a particular "N" number that fit the theme of our other company aircraft. I discovered through the FAA datab
48 sccutler : No, completely different. It's more like pretending that the majority of cars which are no longer on the road are, somehow, still out there. Please e
49 413X3 : You have no real facts to back this up.
50 scarebus03 : I wouldn't be so quick to judge as the ownership of an aircraft is completely seperate from the aircraft registration. Many large leased aircraft are
51 Gonzalo : I think scarebus03 already did it for me, the sentence "the aircraft need to be traceable to prevent illegal use" says it all : Rgds. G.
52 Grid : Not sure how traceability prevents illegal use. The illegal use the article mentioned seemed like bad guys looking up a similar aircraft and using it
53 GATechAE : How about Bank of America foreclosing on peoples houses who don't even have a mortgage with them? Or BP not following maintenance procedures and havi
54 sccutler : Again, please assist me with this: How does "traceability" prevent illegal use of an aircraft (or, for that matter, anything else)?
55 Gonzalo : Since an aircraft is a complex machine, always needs maintenance, change of pieces, a place to parking.... if you have a good staff of people working
56 Grid : I think people were looking up planes that were the same model etc. and using the N-numbers so the scenario you mentioned was probably very uncommon
57 trigged : As for the traceability of an aircraft, it is a moot point to trace the aircraft for terrorist activities since you will only look for it AFTER it has
58 sccutler : I appreciate what you say, but the sad fact is, if someone steals an aircraft with the intent to use it to do harm (or, for that matter, for any othe
59 scarebus03 : Illegal use is a very broad term and does not only apply to terrorist/ smuggling activities. Traceability is also extremely important in determining w
60 Post contains images Gonzalo : Thanks, same for you Regarding the traceability, and after reading all the posts here, I have a conclusion : This is conclusive evidence, we certainl
61 DiamondFlyer : Sure, for large, commerical airliners this is a problem. A vast majority of the planes in this chunk of data are light, general aviation planes. Appl
62 Grid : Your point is indeed credible but the agency specifically mentioned the lack of an up-to-date database as being exploited by terrorists and drug traf
63 trigged : I think the fact that traceability is good for drug running and other illicit activities is universally agreeable. Traceability for terrorists activi
64 Grid : If it is off the radar, how will you know? Do you mean a 727 is transferred/shipped/flown outside the U.S. to the Western Sahara ... and disappears?
65 SPREE34 : Unfortunately, the FSDOs have a history of non-standard interpretations and procedural differences from one FSDO to another. They are typical of how
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