Part147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8994 times:
That's de-regulation for ya...
I'm not in the least surprised by this, in the last few years we've had a few incidents/accidents over here involving N-reg aircraft - and the AAIU have had to 'seek out' who owns them during their investigations...
It's kinda funny how the US has spend soooooo much money on 'US national security' (I love that oxymoron) and only now realises the backdoor has been WIDE open for years!
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8636 times:
The article does list some of the inherent procedural items which created this issue, what seems to have been missed is a proper way to update the original registration records.
a/c are inspected all the time, so haing inspectors update the registration records carried on board the a/c seems simple enough, then you get into the qualifications of the inspectors as in qualified to do paper work, who will pay for the additional work load, etc. etc. etc.
How is that any fault of deregulation? Maybe it is just an incompetent US Government and employees? Sort of like the ones that run Arlington National Cemetery that have managed to bury 8 service members on top of each other in the same grave? Place blame where blame is due.
Honestly, it is no surprise. Disheartening, disappointing, and maddening, but not unexpected or shocking.
I am assuming that every single aircraft will need to have the registration checked and verified.
Thanks to all for your opinions. The thing that amaze me is the big proportion of aircraft with confusing or incomplete information. About my question about how the technology couldn't avoid this, it's weird, because you can imagine that the history of life of a big machine like an aircraft should be traceable in time. I know the comparisons can be very unfair and useless, but if I give the plate number of my car here in the Registro Civil ( a government office where all the people and vehicles of the country are registered ) they can print within seconds a Certificate with all the history of my car, the engine number, the previous owners, legal problems or fines of the car... and there are a couple of millions of cars in Chile... if we have here the computers to do this OK, how the FAA can't do the same with less than 400.000 aircraft ?
Maybe one can screw up 500, 1000 regs.... but almost 120.000 looks ridiculous .... or Am I wrong ?
centralma From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8356 times:
The US Coast Guard maintains an equivalent registry of "documented" US vessels. They send a letter to every vessel owner every year to confirm ownership, address, and vessel usage. The letter only needs to be signed and returned to maintain the documentation. Very simple, costs the owner only return postage, but effective in probing/maintaining the records annually. The USCG then sends an updated documentation certificate on receipt of the confirmation. Documentation is year-to-year. Yes, it costs the government much more than a few postage stamps to do this/process this, but presumably nearly all of this is automated....and it means the database has current addresses, and catches unreported sales by at least removing the old owner/address and revoking the documentation validity. The documentation database is important to security and law enforcement (smuggling interdiction and fisheries enforcement).
(Many vessels can be state registered rather than federally documented...state registrations are for one or two years, and the renewal process there also validates owners/addresses)
The USCG centralized and privatized (through use of a bid contractor, the USCG is still responsible for the activity) all the documentation work some years ago...improved the system and minimized former regional long delays. Outsourcing is not always bad or more expensive, especially if the activity is necessary but not your organization's prime competency.
[There is a long international history of maritime vessel ownership paperwork that predates aircraft by several centuries, allowing liens to be logged against a vessel. The US vessel documentation is thus effectively a formal title as well; I don't know if FAA aircraft registration has THAT equivalency.]
Grid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8299 times:
Even if the database were up-to-date and 100 percent accurate, would that keep drug dealers from using phony registration numbers? It seems the cases the article points out would occur regardless - someone in another country looks up a similar aircraft and puts that number on the aircraft's tail. Obviously if you seize the aircraft, you'll discover it's phony, but by that point it doesn't really matter.
bravogolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8181 times:
I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry. Would someone with the numbers from the manufactures lists like to do the math and see what they come up with? There are probably single aircraft with several registrations in the system, to have that large a number.
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4304 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8181 times:
Quoting bravogolf (Reply 19): I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry. Would someone with the numbers from the manufactures lists like to do the math and see what they come up with? There are probably single aircraft with several registrations in the system, to have that large a number.
In some cases multiple aircraft with the same registered number. This is exactly what led to John and Martha's incident at VNY a few month's ago.
DiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8042 times:
Quoting bravogolf (Reply 19): I find it hard to believe that there are 357,000 registered aircraft in the registry
Why? There are lots of airplanes out there. Heck, look back to the 1970's and how quickly the general aviation manufactures were pumping out airplanes. Then consider how many planes are built today. People don't just throw airplanes away like cars. Couple that with the fact that registrations never really expire (until the new system takes effect), I can believe it totally.
Stupid baseless insults. Underfund regulatory agencies then calling them incompetent is like cutting off your legs then laughing when you can't run.
Agreed... This is a case of being told to 'do more with less' that has resulted in an inadequate system.
Wasn't there an article or discussion about the FAA losing flight plans because the system that held them was from the 70s and severely over-allocated?
I stand by my earlier statement about technology being able to hide bad processes or procedures. For best results, establish your processes and policies based on your requirements, and find the technology/tool to fulfill those requirements. If you let the technology dictate your requirements, you'll get something that looks pretty but doesn't work.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6101 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7963 times:
Quoting apodino (Reply 20): In some cases multiple aircraft with the same registered number. This is exactly what led to John and Martha's incident at VNY a few month's ago.
The FAA maintains permanant records of EVERY aircraft registered, tracking both the registration, and airworthiness. Under a single N number can be a theoretical limitless number of aircraft, which is only reassigned when the aircraft is scrapped, written off, or the certificate is surrendered.
This is important when it comes to buying an aircraft, it's in the best interest of the buyer's due diligence to get a copy of the records from the FAA either directly, or have a broker get the information an provide a summary.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
AerLingusA330 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7941 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18): Stupid baseless insults. Underfund regulatory agencies then calling them incompetent is like cutting off your legs then laughing when you can't run.
I disagree. To my knowledge, the FAA isn't underfunded. However, regardless whether they are or not, funding does not dictate how well processes are run or even how well designed the processes are. Do private companies say that they don't have enough money to be a good organization? If they do, they fold. If they don't, they find ways to adjust and work with what they have. There is too much bureaucracy in government agencies, such as the FAA, for any downsizing, reorganization, or re-adjusting. When they get into trouble they simply ask for more money instead of making changes. Why not? It's the government, they'll give it to us. This mentality continues until somebody (on the outside) finally speaks up.
Just like Gonzalo said in post 17, they knew about this problem since just after 9/11. That was nine years ago. There is clearly a flaw in the process since they have let this go for nearly 10 years. They attempt to place fault on others in nearly every other case but, in this disaster, they have no other party to blame but themselves.
I do agree with previous posts regarding the other equipment, such as the ATC system and even navigation networks. These are severely outdated and over loaded, and need funding to be replaced. However, this doesn't affect the registration problems because that is barely affected by severely outdated equipment. That is about the process.
[Edited 2010-12-10 10:04:14]
Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
: Knowing about the problem, and having a plan and funding to create a solution, are very different things.
: The article says this database has been in disarray for decades. In this time they surely saw their budget go up and down, but didn't do anything abo
: Maybe WikiLeaks will have a copy they can share with the FAA!
: So If I give you a job to do, but dont give you any money to do it with, you can do just as good as if you were given a reasonable amount of money? I
: Maybe the FAA can buy a copy of the airliners.net database!
: The way they are going about to fix this issue doesn't seem very costly to the FAA. It's basically just changing some rules, and cancelling current r
: Stupid? Your opinion. Baseless? Hardly. I worked there for 25 years. The place is overrun with under qualified blame placers who's budget management
: I agree, US government agenices, no matter how many apoligists there are, tend to be inept. And it's not the fault of the employees, it's just a fact
: Sorry - I see far more incompitence in governmental organizations than in businesses - from local up (though local is usually better because they hav
: I am of the belief that this "story" is a lot about nothing. Think about it. Would the feds leak a story about how many cars/trucks are missing "criti
: I don't want to disrespect the people working in the agencies over there, generalizations are usually unfair.... but when you see a ( moronic ) TSA a
: Why, a vast majority of the planes registered in the United States couldn't damage any significant building to the point that it would collapse. Nor
: They should get in touch with Julian Assange. He surely has a copy stashed away somewhere :P
: Probably the true reason why the FAA has enacted a new rule for GA...renewals of the Registration Certificates. Used to be that a registration certifi
: Well, maybe you can't collapse buildings... but you can carry a few hundreds of packages of cocaine, or dynamite, or whatever....you can hurt the soc