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Teen Likely Fell To Death From Jet  
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 31593 times:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...view.bg?articleid=1302285&srvc=rss

Excerpt:
In a “major breach of airport security,” it appears a 16-year-old North Carolina boy found mutilated on a Milton lawn fell to his death from the wheel well of a jet preparing to land at Logan Airport, Norfolk District Attorney William Keating said tonight.

The body of 16-year-old Delvonte Tisdale of Charlotte was discovered Nov. 15 on the lawn of a posh Milton home at 9:30 p.m. That is about the time a neighbor heard a loud thud and college students driving by came upon his body, the DA said.




Very sad indeed. Not sure what would have made him do this, as by all accounts, the guy was pretty-well rounded by most accounts.


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 31089 times:

By most accounts or by all accounts though? Generally, people don't like to say bad things about a person who just died, even if the things are true. Maybe that is the situation here.

Would he have been alive when he fell? He apparently fell from 737 which doesn't have doors of the rear landing gear right? Does it have door over the front?



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User currently offlineRJLover From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30985 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 1):
Would he have been alive when he fell? He apparently fell from 737 which doesn't have doors of the rear landing gear right? Does it have door over the front?

No doors for the main gear, but there are doors for the nose gear.



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User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30975 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 1):
Would he have been alive when he fell? He apparently fell from 737 which doesn't have doors of the rear landing gear right? Does it have door over the front?

I doubt it? Pretty much anywhere he could have stowed away and fallen from, wouldn't have been pressurized or heated. Over 12,000 feet and hypoxia is going to start to set in. At cruise altitudes, it would render somebody unconscious within 30 seconds. And even if he somehow could have gotten oxygen, temperatures at altitude between -45F to - 60F would have killed somebody pretty quickly.

I just curious as to how this guy got onto a the ramp and hidden on the plane at a major airport?


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30912 times:

Quoting RJLover (Reply 2):
Quoting Grid (Reply 1):
Would he have been alive when he fell? He apparently fell from 737 which doesn't have doors of the rear landing gear right? Does it have door over the front?

No doors for the main gear, but there are doors for the nose gear.

I reread the article and it said his prints were found inside the left wheel well, so I am assuming in the rear. That would be a terrible feeling to see the wheel come up and no door closing ... among all the other terrible feelings associated with the act.



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User currently onlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30899 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 1):
Would he have been alive when he fell?

As tragic as this case is, it's unlikely he was alive before he fell from the plane. First the gear well is unpressurized so there is little oxygen when the plane is cruising. Second, it is also very cold at altitude, sometimes colder than -40F. Also there is not mush room inside a gear well of a 737. I'm not trying to be morbid but it is possible he was crushed to death when the landing gear was retracted.

Edit. What PWM2TXLHopper said. I was typing at the same time.

[Edited 2010-12-10 17:56:24]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30833 times:

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 3):

I doubt it? Pretty much anywhere he could have stowed away and fallen from, wouldn't have been pressurized or heated. Over 12,000 feet and hypoxia is going to start to set in. At cruise altitudes, it would render somebody unconscious within 30 seconds. And even if he somehow could have gotten oxygen, temperatures at altitude between -45F to - 60F would have killed somebody pretty quickly.

You are correct... except some people have managed to survive such journeys. One notable case was a man from Africa who made the journey to JFK in the wheel well of a 744 wearing only shorts and a short-sleeved shirt (I might have some of the details on origin and destination wrong).

Not that this is a good idea by any means.

Quoting bohica (Reply 5):

As tragic as this case is, it's unlikely he was alive before he fell from the plane.

It actually would be pretty easy for the coroners to determine that and they seem to think he was alive until he impacted the ground.

Remember, falls rarely kill anyone. It's the landings that do.

Quoting airportugal310 (Thread starter):
Not sure what would have made him do this, as by all accounts, the guy was pretty-well rounded by most accounts.

I'm sorry, I can't resist, so: seems like he would have been pretty flattened.   

But my question is: where is there room for a grown man (which is the size of your average kid this age) to hide in a 737 wheel wheel with the wheels up?


User currently offlineRJLover From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30710 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
But my question is: where is there room for a grown man (which is the size of your average kid this age) to hide in a 737 wheel wheel with the wheels up?

From what I've seen, MAYBE in between the wheels themselves. When I worked the ramp, we handled WS and their 737s and I stuck me head in the wheel well a few times and it looked like someone (maybe on the smaller side) could sit in there. Although, I'm not totally sure how much room there actually is with the wheels up........



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User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 29728 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 4):

I reread the article and it said his prints were found inside the left wheel well, so I am assuming in the rear. That would be a terrible feeling to see the wheel come up and no door closing ... among all the other terrible feelings associated with the act.

There is no gap. Once the gear is up a pretty tight seal is made. It's not like there's a huge gaping hole left over.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Remember, falls rarely kill anyone. It's the landings that do.

Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if he was indeed alive. Dunno about the 737 but there are a few planes that have pretty hot stuff venting through the wheel wells. And I'm guessing they're pretty much airtight due to aerodynamic reasons, so it's not like there would be a massive 600mph draft in your face. Of course, not tight enough to remain pressurized

Quoting RJLover (Reply 7):

From what I've seen, MAYBE in between the wheels themselves. When I worked the ramp, we handled WS and their 737s and I stuck me head in the wheel well a few times and it looked like someone (maybe on the smaller side) could sit in there. Although, I'm not totally sure how much room there actually is with the wheels up........

If he knew how to sit properly, right in the middle and his body parallel with the fuselage, he just may get away with not falling out or getting smooshed.. Been a while since I peeked into a 737s wheel well though, but I would say it's definitely doable going by these shots: .

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/wheelwellboth.jpg

These are random pics I found of the middle portion of the well, im sure you could curl up right in the middle:

http://www.aviafilms.com/photos/737-800-wheel-well.jpg





I think they are all NGs. But don't quote me on that. I guess having hydraulic lines going between your butt crack won't be too comfortable. And I bet the noise would be deafening.   


[Edited 2010-12-10 19:47:31]

User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 29632 times:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/Investigato...sing-Charlotte-teen-109534199.html

Strange story. Seems like he thought he could travel that way to run away from home,


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 29322 times:

Are the wheels spinning when they reach the "stowed" position?

User currently offlineremcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 29282 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
If he knew how to sit properly, right in the middle and his body parallel with the fuselage, he just may get away with not falling out or getting smooshed.. Been a while since I peeked into a 737s wheel well though, but I would say it's definitely doable going by these shots: .

Great pics. Your 2nd and 3rd pic seem to show a pretty comfy spot. Right behind the guy that's standing looks like a place that one could lay down and not be harmed. And it kind of looks like an obvious spot for a potential stowaway too, at least from these pics. So he may have died from the exposure instead of being crushed.

Then again his body did fall out of the airplane, indicating that he might have been wedged against against a wheel instead of being in a relatively stable spot.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 28799 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 10):
Are the wheels spinning when they reach the "stowed" position?

I don't know of any airliner that doesn't brake the mains automatically when retracting. The last thing you want is a wheel spinning well over a hundred miles per hour flinging rocks and debris into delicate control cables and hydraulic lines.

The nose gears however , since they rarely have brakes, use friction strips of sorts (snubbers) and they do indeed enter the well spinning, but stop once they hit the snubber.

Quoting remcor (Reply 11):

Then again his body did fall out of the airplane, indicating that he might have been wedged against against a wheel instead of being in a relatively stable spot.

My guess is that he survived the initial climb. Then, as the air thinned, he may have become unconscious, but not dead, and his body probably loosened up and ended up leaning against a wheel. Then, as they extended, he fell out once he had no more support.

I hope he remained unconscious the whole way down. But, myself having gone through decompression training, I get the feeling he may have regained consciousness rather quickly   (assuming he was alive still, which Im almost certain he was)


User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 28512 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I'm sorry, I can't resist, so: seems like he would have been pretty flattened.

HA yeah...in addition to the typo, I could have used better words there. I will take the FAIL trophy for the day...I still have 15 min left to claim it.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineg38 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 28196 times:
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Does anyone have a tail number for the plane that was involved? I think it would be interesting to see the actual plane. The article says the kid was involved in ROTC and a lover of aviation, so shouldn't he have know better, or was he not trying to get to his mother?

User currently onlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4952 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 27801 times:

The last article said that he was "mangled beyond recognition". I'd say he probably got crushed by the landing gear,


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User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 27704 times:

Is there enough room in between on the beam?

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 27705 times:

I wonder why a kid wouldn't try to come up with airfare. He would have been able to find something inexpensive...

User currently onlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1509 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 27522 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
Ohh, that explains a lot. I'm just gonna say all the ROTC kids from my school were extremely, how to put it... f'ed up, one way or another.

IIRC, he was high school aged, which would put him in JROTC. Its a totally different program, and from my personal dealings I'd say they (JROTC vs ROTC) are totally different in the types of people they attract for the most part. In any case, its a shame that this young man died in the manner he did.


-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineadam42185 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 413 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 26644 times:

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 3):
I just curious as to how this guy got onto a the ramp and hidden on the plane at a major airport?

Thank god for all of the added security measures at airports, good to know we're safe -- what if this guy had a bomb? or malice and started away at some lines with a hammer? This is scary to me, that someone can get on the ramp and into a plane. Perhaps this person was just an idiot who decided to try and get transport this way, but someone who can just get in there and plant something without even being on the plane... scary. But just make sure your toothpaste is declared and you're ready to be groped.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26323 times:

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 3):
Over 12,000 feet and hypoxia is going to start to set in.

Yes, but it wouldn't be anywhere close to fatal until about 20,000 feet for someone of his type.

It's a moot point, as the plane would've been at FL300+. Between that and the cold:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be surprised if he was indeed alive

There is absolutely no way he was alive. The hypoxia alone would've killed him after 20 minutes or so.

Quote:
The Transportation Security Administration announced it will work with Charlotte Douglas International Airport, “which is responsible for access control security,”

Leave it to TSA to absolve themselves of being responsible for security when something goes wrong. What a bunch of jackasses.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinetennis69 From Qatar, joined Apr 2007, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 25358 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This guy should be a candidate for this year's Darwin Awards.

User currently offlineKennyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 25069 times:

I can't help but think if he had hidden in the cargo bay he would have made it, because if I'm not wrong, it is pressurized.

But then again the chances of him being caught by baggage handlers would have been greater.



Soarin'
User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 24833 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
Leave it to TSA to absolve themselves of being responsible for security when something goes wrong. What a bunch of jackasses.

But who is responsible for securing the perimeter and controlling external access to aircraft?

I wonder when he got on. Would the pilot typically look inside the wells during a walkaround?



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User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1441 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 24534 times:

The worst thing; what we used hear of North Koreans feeing to Japan or South Korea - happened in the United States.
Well. Teen age problems are the same anywhere.
But the guy, almost adult, apparently had no money to travel from Charlotte to Boston on bus, train.
And hitchhiking is not popular any more. Again, due security and sexual harassment.

Mad mad mad world.


25 ltbewr : There are 2 very serious problems here - that someone would consider traveling by aircraft wheel well and being able to breach security to get that cl
26 rev3oh2 : As a regular spotter at Charlotte Douglas International, I've spent some time wondering how this young man gained access to the 737 that he managed to
27 ACCOperator : Without meaning to be insensitive, is there any way that this young man could have jeopardized the aircraft? Or its ability to fly / land? Would it be
28 heathrow : Do we know what airline? I would assume WN?
29 maxpower1954 : US Airways
30 soon7x7 : Be that as it may...anyone that tries such a stunt is not the sharpest pencil in the box. Even if the person is desperate enough to try it, a little
31 JBirdAV8r : I don't see how any parallels at all can be drawn between a troubled teen looking for an escape and political refugees seeking asylum in other countr
32 db373 : ....Obviously the guy was not pretty-well rounded if he thought this stunt would work.
33 GoBoeing : Just more proof that nearly a decade after a successful Al Qaeda quadruple hijacking that started and ended on US soil, the United States still does n
34 Fly2HMO : Go do explosive decompression training and then we'll talk. Severe Hypoxia takes much longer to settle in with a gradual decrease in pressure and is
35 vikkyvik : Really? I don't wonder why kids do anything....Hell, I have no idea why I did half the stuff I did when I was in high school. Yep. We had a AFJROTC p
36 Maverick623 : It is, but it's not heated. Absolutely survivable though.... there was a JetBlue ramper who got stuck in a bin from JFK to BOS and didn't even have t
37 GSPSPOT : VERY good point...
38 GoBoeing : I don't think anyone on here needs to go to explosive decompression training before they are permitted to talk about this! Do you really think that t
39 Fly2HMO : Knowing what the books say and actually experiencing it are two completely different things. As a few have pointed out above, several have survived l
40 SEPilot : But he was run over by 2 vehicles after he landing. That would account for the mangling, in addition to the landing itself. From the photos of the wh
41 Maverick623 : Please quote the post where anyone said this. There's a huge difference between 14000 feet for any length of time (which most people have no trouble
42 Post contains images GoBoeing : Yes, and Fly2HMO has spent time in a 737 wheel well simulator pressurization chamber.
43 SEPilot : There is no book that can tell you what human beings can tolerate and what they can't. Everybody is different, and one person may survive something t
44 N685FE : He was at least smart enough to do his homework, or just lucky, he did manage to pick out a north bound jet although he mixed up Boston for Baltimore
45 DiamondFlyer : None of the 737's have main landing gear doors. So, by nature of that, a classic wouldn't have them. Sometimes I wonder about the reading ability on
46 Maverick623 : I understand what you're saying, and as always there is a very slim chance he was still alive and may have lived if he didn't fall out. I do find it
47 Post contains images aviateur : This is a sad and interesting story, but you can always count on a politician or bureaucrat to put some annoying and irrelevant spin on it: “It’s
48 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Damn right
49 spacecadet : ...and that still leaves a 99% chance that this kid was dead before he fell out of the well. I know what I'm gonna believe.
50 maxpower1954 : That's a pretty horrific picture of the14year old falling from the DC-8. In 1969, a young Cuban survived a trip in the wheel well of an Iberia DC-8 fr
51 Schweigend : Great post. And don't get ME started on what or who could be hidden inside ULDs or pet carriers!
52 AR385 : Has anybody given thought to the fact that what this kid really intended to was to committ suicide?
53 kiwiandrew : Seems a very elaborate way to commit suicide , I would have thought that there would be many easier options .
54 Grid : True, even if he were an aviation nut, I think it would have been an overly complicated and time consuming way to end one's life.
55 kurbitur : I guess Ryanair has now come up with idea of how to put more passengers on-board they're aircrafts Holiday offers to Alicante and Bologna from only 2
56 nycplanebuff : Is there any possibility he was unconscious or dead before the flight, then put in the wheel well by others?
57 soon7x7 : Of course he was...he was a popsicle on a stick... Think its a stretch, although anything is possible, just seems like a complicated method when razo
58 AR385 : True. However, when people decide to go out with a bang or to make a statement, when doing it, anythong can happen. It´s not a bad way to go, really
59 kiwiandrew : Please be careful when using the quote function , I did not make the post which you have attributed to me .
60 Grid : Something tells me you do not have firsthand knowledge though.
61 rolfen : The poor guy was "a member of the school’s Air Force Jr. ROTC program". He would have known the dangers of doing that, or at least had the resources
62 Daysleeper : I think it can cause a certain amount of delirium. During WWII the Nazis used concentration camp prisoners to further research the effects of hypothe
63 rlwynn : The very first sentence of this thread speaks of a mutilated body. He got killed on gear retraction. 100%
64 Daysleeper : How can you be so sure that isnt because of the fall?
65 rlwynn : Bodies do not get mutilated in falls. They get mutilated being hacked and ground up in large moving parts.
66 AR385 : True, injuries on high altitude falls are pretty easy to determine. They don´t involve mutilation, rather a series of organs liquefying on impact an
67 Post contains links pylon101 : You are probably right. Motivation doesn't matter here. It's about "getting there". But I feel sad. Amazing things happen. In 2003 two people fell ou
68 474218 : I can't see how the lack of a door made any difference. The spinning main landing gear wheels are stopped prior to retraction because: the gyroscopic
69 HAWK21M : Thats my concern too. Pity most people who try to hitch a ride in the Wheel well,do not understand pressurisation & its consequences.
70 Grid : Because he will have realized the serious miscalculation he made. He probably assumed (an assumption on my part, of course) that he could survive in
71 Maverick623 : To be fair, many people would consider that mutilated, especially if the guts were hanging out. There are pictures out there of 9/11 "falling men" af
72 SEPilot : If you would read the article HE WAS RUN OVER AFTER LANDING BY TWO, THAT IS ONE, TWO VEHICLES. I think that adequately accounts for the mutilation.
73 Maverick623 : Chill out, man. That information wasn't in the original version of the article.
74 474218 : Minor's are not allowed to enter into contracts (without a parent or guardian approval). An Airline ticket is a contract and if an airline knowing se
75 SEPilot : I read several articles about the incident and it was in all of them. And I had pointed it out earlier when the subject of the mutilation came up.
76 Maverick623 : A quick Google search provides the answer you gave by people who don't back it up with any evidence, instead blindly repeating the same line about co
77 rolfen : They found "fingerprints" but did not report finding any blood in the wheel compartment upon inspection. So the mutilation would be from the fall and
78 Maverick623 : My vote was that he had some sort of mental disability. Also, the article now states that his shoes and shirt, along with a shattered frozen plastic
79 Grid : That is interesting and good to know. It has to be not because the ticket is a contract but because of the ticket's contract of carriage, no? A minor
80 rlwynn : I think that the word mutilation is being a bit liberally used. You could be smashed and broken but mutilation is a gfrade above that.
81 rolfen : This is happening so often... they should put a big red button in there to warn the crew. Might be useful for when the guy realizes that it was a bad
82 Daysleeper : That's not a bad idea actually - Or perhaps even something like an infrared detector, similar to whats fitted to a burglar alarm to alert the crew th
83 N685FE : Why would the airlines be expected to bear the cost of certifying, installing and maintaining such a system? The idea of an infrared detector would n
84 Daysleeper : Hmm, allot of houses with similar detectors have heat sources too you know.... And if it was something fitted to new aircraft at the factory it would
85 tsugambler : Maybe, instead of a button, the wheel wells should have a sign saying, "WARNING: This compartment is neither pressurized nor heated. Attempting to sto
86 N685FE : Yes I realize that, however when the system is activated there isn't a boiling pot of water left on the stove or the oven door open and left on. The
87 Daysleeper : Begs the question, if there is so much heat in these areas why are they freezing to death in the first place? They could have brought some tea bags a
88 N685FE : The heat signatures of all the components during all phases of flight would have to be recorded for a period of time then make a flight phase profile
89 Daysleeper : They don't work like that mate, They detect a MOVING heat source. If its stationary its ignored as "background" - this is also true for heat sources
90 rolfen : More like a "line" system, like the ones installed in motorized gates. It's really very simple technology. 2 or 3 of these in the gear compartment wi
91 N685FE : Good to know, I didn't know that's how they worked so I did a little research. Basic style security systems that utilize a dual sensor set up uses hea
92 HAWK21M : Replace the Hitchhiker with a Determined Terrorist & the scenario changes dangerously for Aviation. Security needs to be foolproof.
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