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AlJazeera: 'investigation' On Boeing Due Wed  
User currently offlinemestrugo From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14252 times:

While I was browsing thru Youtube, I found this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gZDUaKtlB0&feature=sub

According to the promo, "We investigate claims that for eight years one of the world's largest airline manufacturers put lives at risk by using ill-fitting and illegal parts on its planes." One of the tags says 'Boeing', so it seems they're clear about WHICH manufacturer they mean.

To me, it seems like a quite sensationalistic title and a big irresponsibility by AlJazeera, and I'm looking forward to watch the program before I get more conclusions... We'll see what comes out of this.

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13611 times:

Can anybody recognise who is speaking in that clip?

User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13508 times:

Could be interesting. I find Al-Jazeera's articles fairly interesting and they have the money to actually do investigative reporting as opposed to most media outlets in the U.S. that rely on web videos of sleeping cat falling off televisions and grainy, low-resolution videos of thunderstorms sent from iReporters ...


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13246 times:

I'm really confused by that news clip. It provided no information on anything, but rather tried to insight fear. I don't doubt the credibility of a genuine risk, but they do not have any substance behind it yet. The article could be anything from the Koito seat debacle to a genuine production certificate breach. I have a subtle feeling that this might be about Koito since there has been a lot of news about it recently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koito_Industries

I also severely question the use of the term "catastrophic failure". That is a technical term which essentially means complete loss of an aircraft. Anything that could be a catastrophic failure would never be uncovered by a news agency. The FAA and EASA are on all failures identified as catastrophic immediately in the design phase. Any single failure that has that risk of bringing down a plane has to have 10^-9 probability of happening. For that reason alone, I do question the authenticity of this promo.

BTW, what airplane is being referenced? I see A320 & 737 pictures in the promo and it does not indicate which plane.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13173 times:

It sounds very much the typical dramatizing and exploitative piece of journalism that plagues most reports and documentaries about aviation safety or aviation in general, regardless of the network.

But let's wait and see...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemestrugo From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12763 times:

Here, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUFFzkCQXw&feature=sub


User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 841 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12398 times:

Wow. If there is any truth to this then its serious, so it begs the question why has it been left to Aljazeera to bring this to light? I'm not questioning their credibility, but if this really is as bad as they say then why isn't this on other news networks? Why are there no offiicial comments from the FAA and the likes. How about the NTSB reports for the three crashes in which they are claiming the sub standard parts played a role?

Actually, does anyone recognise the crashs? Ive found the AA one but not sure about the other two.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12337 times:
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Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 12):
Actually, does anyone recognise the crashs? Ive found the AA one but not sure about the other two

Turkish Airlines in Amsterdam (February 2009).
Aires Colombia in San Andres Island (August 2010).

The allegation isn't that the defects caused the crashes, but that the planes should not have broken up on impact the way they did.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinejamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 544 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12321 times:

Link with video, now live:

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/a...s/2010/12/2010121516520679770.html

Quote:
Boeing in 'safety cover-up'

Whistleblowers tell Al Jazeera that aircraft manufacturer is knowingly building planes with ill-fitting, illegal parts.
Last Modified: 15 Dec 2010 17:56 GMT

Whistleblowers from within Boeing have told Al Jazeera that the aircraft manufacturer has been knowingly building planes with ill-fitting, illegal and dangerous parts.

Al Jazeera's People & Power programme conducted a year-long investigation into allegations that between 1996 and 2004 the parts were assembled on to many of Boeing's 737s.

The claims were made by then-employees of Boeing in Wichita, Kansas who were working on the 737 Next Generation (NG) aircraft.

The 737 series, produced since the mid-1960, is the world's most popular short and medium-haul passenger aircraft.

Earlier models were built by hand and as a result the dimensions or accuracy of each individual part would often be marginally different, resulting in the need for assembly workers to pack out gaps with "shims" or fillers. These added to the overall weight of an aircraft, making it more expensive to fly.]

...continues


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12236 times:
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Well there have been issues with various parts on the 737 throughout the years, all duly discovered and addressed through ADs.

So it's possible AlJazeera is just putting them all together into a story.


User currently offlinejamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 544 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12176 times:

The complete programme is now available to watch online. Watch it and make up your own minds.

http://english.aljazeera.net/program.../2010/12/20101214104637901849.html

(Anyone posting a reply in less than 60 minutes will be flamed for not having bothered to watch it all  )


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2131 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12105 times:

While individual issues noted are probably true. Putting them together and obtain one conclusion in my opinion is beyond the scope and capability of the article.

Consider the following:

" new computerised process, ATA, to ensure that each individual part was identical and precise to within 3000ths of an inch.

That's .003 tolerance. Usually you don't see these except for fastener holes that are used to align and assemble parts without the aid of tooling.

True computerization can help with getting the accuracy required for ATA, but not exclusive. A more expensive option would be good tooling (of-course that would defeat the purpose of ATA in the first place).

Miss-locating these holes would make the assembly more difficult but not necessarily affect edge margin if remediation can be obtained.

"Dr Michael Dreikorn: "[The] ATA was designed so that the tolerances on putting the aeroplane together would be so tight that the aircraft would have higher strength and reliability"

I thought that ATA was designed to put together the airplane with limited use of tooling. I don't think stress analysts I know would use take advantage of the tighter fit as a benefit when they analyze and certify a structure. They usually analyze for worst case condition. And I can only assume that any parts that violate the worst case condition would be tagged, replaced or repaired.

Any benefit from tighter fit would be in longer life of the airframe and not necessarily affect the airworthiness of the airframe.

"Misrepresentation of the manufacturing process jeopardizes the integrity of airplane parts […]. […] this situation cannot be ignored […].

True and usually remediation (either termination or re-negotiation of contracts) are kept quiet.

"Some parts were so badly out of shape that they had to beaten on to the airframe with hammers, a process which builds in potentially lethal pre-stress."

Not all pre-stresses are bad (AKA - shot peening). Beating a piece of metal into shape is a well worn process in making metal parts and metal airplanes. Just don't get caught doing that on the 787!! LOL.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineBoeingmd82 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11916 times:

I watched the entire program and it does have some interesting information. I believe non-conforming parts should be dealt with seriously. One part of the program that I don't agree with at all is when they tried to tie the alleged non-conforming parts to the way the B737 broke up after the accidents they picked out for this feature. I've read many, many accounts of aircraft breaking up in the exact same places from not only other Boeing 737s (BMI Flight 092 B737-400) that according to the piece, are stronger because when they were built, to aircraft from completely different manufacturers in other countries, (Air Ontario 1363 F28). Those are just the inherent weak points of a long aluminum tube with a strong wingbox right in the middle. To try to tie where the airframe breaks up to a certain model of airplane with certain parts without comparing it to other accidents is not responsible journalism.

User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11854 times:

Quoting jamesontheroad (Reply 13):
Link with video, now live:

At least in the 5 minutes I just wasted looking, the video is nowhere to be found at that link.

[Edited 2010-12-15 13:56:38]

User currently offlinejamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 544 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11764 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 18):
At least in the 5 minutes I just wasted looking, the video is nowhere to be found at that link.

If URL is dud, try http://english.aljazeera.net/ then > Programmes > People & Power


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1039 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11766 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 18):
At least in the 5 minutes I just wasted looking, the video is nowhere to be found at that link.

Try this link then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


User currently offlinedz09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11436 times:

I watched the whole thing on youtube and it was very interesting. From what i saw, i think there were issues with the manufacturing which has since been corrected. The sub is probably well connected with some people at Boeing and someone made the assessment that it was not a big deal. There is a big difference between non compliance with the specs and a defective piece. CNC manufacturing has not been around that long and planes have not been falling out of the sky because pieces were manually made. Any design has tons of safety factors built in. Those pieces were made by hands and didn't have the tight tolerances you would get from CNC milling, This does not mean they are defective.

I'm sure that boeing did the needful to assess the problem after the fact and came to the conclusion that although the parts are not compliant they are still good for service. Not that this is a good practice, and suspect someone at boeing was in cahoots with the supplier. This is a plane and not a Toyota. You can't simply recall a plane. I think there is more to the story......


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11399 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 12):
The allegation isn't that the defects caused the crashes, but that the planes should not have broken up on impact the way they did.

When I was wondering about that, I was told here that it was a "feature" of the 737 to break that way.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 869 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11373 times:

There probably is more to the story, but it is still pretty alarming.
It asks big questions of BCA's quality assurance.
I'm not an engineer but my limited knowledge I drilling extra holes and hammering (ie working) the metal would significantly change it's properties.

This is worrying


User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11197 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 23):
There probably is more to the story, but it is still pretty alarming.
It asks big questions of BCA's quality assurance.
I'm not an engineer but my limited knowledge I drilling extra holes and hammering (ie working) the metal would significantly change it's properties.

This is worrying

It might be worrying, except for the fact that Boeing has delivered more than 3300 737NG's and in the last 12 years since launch there have been a total of seven accidents, including a mid-air(not structural), a couple of runway overruns, and two aircraft lost at low-level in poor weather. Untold numbers of flights over 12 years, and single-digit accidents. Flying is all about the numbers. If the 737NG was an unsafe aircraft, it would show in the numbers. There are too many planes flying too many flights to 'hide" an actual safety problem.

This seems like a rather desperate attempt at sensational journalistism that is more scaremongering to the uninformed.

This isn't just "well, they might have a point, it should be looked into, yada yada."

The numbers show they're simply wrong.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11497 times:

Given the current state of affairs across the board in the US these days, this report I'm sorry to say...is probably correct and factual. While I would naturally question anything from Aljazeera towards any American agency, company...my gut tells me a bull is loose in a china shop. While the three sited crashes were weather related where the overruns were concerned, while the Turkish was not an overrun...the evident damage in all three accidents is consistent with hard landings and have been replicated in other models and manufacturers in other crashes. We all can agree the exampled 707 FAA test was true testimony to the integrity built into the 707/727 airframes. They just don't make them like that anymore. The investigation and reporting seems thorough enough along with the testimonies of the boeing employees. AHF Ducommun must be contracted for other assemblies as well for Boeing. Rarely will a contractor receive orders for parts for just one airframe type or varient. This is most interesting...Very good find!

Quoting mestrugo (Thread starter):
While I was browsing thru Youtube, I found this video:


Good find!


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11443 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
While the three sited crashes were weather related where the overruns were concerned, while the Turkish was not an overrun...the evident damage in all three accidents is consistent with hard landings and have been replicated in other models and manufacturers in other crashes

I think the one thing Al-J has not considered (and may not appreciate) is that even when a plane crashes, failure is built into the design, so that it can break apart in a manner which minimises the loss of life. In both the Aires and American crashes, there was no loss of life, while the loss of life in the TK crash was quite low (nine, I believe); had this failure not been built into the design, the loss of life - particularly in the TK crash - could have been worse.


User currently offlinekiwimex From Mexico, joined Nov 2009, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11392 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 24):
It might be worrying, except for the fact that Boeing has delivered more than 3300 737NG's and in the last 12 years since launch there have been a total of seven accidents, including a mid-air(not structural), a couple of runway overruns, and two aircraft lost at low-level in poor weather. Untold numbers of flights over 12 years, and single-digit accidents. Flying is all about the numbers. If the 737NG was an unsafe aircraft, it would show in the numbers. There are too many planes flying too many flights to 'hide" an actual safety problem.

Problems don't necessarily appear immediately. Especially stress problems. BOAC 781.

If you want to play statistics, 3 of those 7 accidents have had the fuselage break open in several places. That certainly shows in the numbers.


User currently offlinejeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 602 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11359 times:

They picked these particular accidents for the sensationalism and to try and support the scare tactics being used. This is little more than an attack on a major American company. Note how they left out the Southwest overrun at Midway. That aircraft is back in the air by the way. Did they mention anything about Airbus crashes? Nope. Most passengers survived the Boeing crashes but what about Airbus crashes? Not a chance since they seem to fall from the sky or break up under mysterious circumstances.
In defense of both manufacturers and to provide something to think about. How many aircraft from both companies are flying how many thousands of flights a day with how many millions of passengers without incident? It is still the safest form of travel, Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, Lockheed, or MD.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11243 times:

Quoting starrion (Reply 24):
It might be worrying, except for the fact that Boeing has delivered more than 3300 737NG's and in the last 12 years since launch there have been a total of seven accidents, including a mid-air(not structural), a couple of runway overruns, and two aircraft lost at low-level in poor weather. Untold numbers of flights over 12 years, and single-digit accidents. Flying is all about the numbers. If the 737NG was an unsafe aircraft, it would show in the numbers. There are too many planes flying too many flights to 'hide" an actual safety problem.

Bravo on the low number of crashes and that so few have lost their lives. There is probably not a safety problem but the plane could still be made safer.

Quoting jeb94 (Reply 28):
They picked these particular accidents for the sensationalism and to try and support the scare tactics being used. This is little more than an attack on a major American company. Note how they left out the Southwest overrun at Midway. That aircraft is back in the air by the way. Did they mention anything about Airbus crashes? Nope. Most passengers survived the Boeing crashes but what about Airbus crashes? Not a chance since they seem to fall from the sky or break up under mysterious circumstances.
In defense of both manufacturers and to provide something to think about. How many aircraft from both companies are flying how many thousands of flights a day with how many millions of passengers without incident? It is still the safest form of travel, Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, Lockheed, or MD.

Maybe they have forthcoming episodes on fuselage break-ups by the other manufacturers. They can't squeeze all those accidents into one program. Perhaps you could point out to them some instances when Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer fuselages broke up during crashes. The latter two would be particularly interesting.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
25 flood : Regardless of AlJazeera's motives, the allegations by the former Boeing employees appear to be anything but baseless. I don't necessarily agree with
26 Grid : This is response I wish I had written. Everyone has dirty laundry but it seems like Boeing employees are willing to air it. Maybe the other manufactu
27 Post contains links flood : An earlier article from the Washington Post in 2006: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/04/16/AR2006041600803.html
28 AirNZ : I think you're dramatically, and deliberately over-simplifing the issue. No, I may not agree wiith perhaps the way it has came about but I see your c
29 CM767 : For me is hard to believe that B would risk the company in such way, and that leads me to another question, any of the people making the accusations a
30 Garpd : Begs the questions, how should an aircraft break up in a crash? Who says what is right and what is wrong? We're talking about machines flying at 250
31 bikerthai : I am an engineer and I can say: Drilling extra holes is acceptable depending if you have room for the extra hole given design criteria. For this part
32 starrion : Hardly. No crashes until the Southwest overrun in 2005. Look at the record. The first NG lost was GOL due to a mid-air in 2006. Eight years after int
33 bikerthai : I just confirmed that this was the case. Further account of the news and what I know, the 9 deaths were the cockpit crew, two cabin crew and some pas
34 yak42 : That is exactly what the whistle blowers were saying was not done. No non-conformance paperwork was not done because managers told assembly workers n
35 soon7x7 : The weak link in the report is that this vendor is only producing ribs for the -800?...not very likely. A vendor would in most cases get the contract
36 bikerthai : Sorry I don't have time to view the video. If non-conformance paperwork was not done, then it is an issue. That is one thing that I have issue with i
37 Daysleeper : I'm stunned, this can't be true. Is there no official comment on this video from Boeing? On the off chance that this is correct, and that hundreds of
38 BoeEngr : Interesting. I don't work on the 737 so I can't really comment on what happens there. However, I can say that in my years on multiple commercial progr
39 Daysleeper : How can you explain the photos? or the motives of the whistle blowers? They approached and reported this matter to the FAA before they lost their job
40 474218 : Pure sensationalism! There is no law that parts must fit a certain way, so how can they be illegal.
41 Daysleeper : Im assuming they should be manufactured as per the type certificate though, which they are not. Also if no law was broken or regulation breached why
42 okie : Sure just go to the FAA website and search Service Difficulty Reports. There are thousands and thousands for hundreds of aircraft models. Still tryin
43 flyorski : I believe this is a real issue. I know its hard to believe such wide-spread fraud could take place in a respected company with a rich history like Boe
44 ltbewr : So what happens from these allegations? Perhaps this scenario: The NTSB/FAA does a preliminary investigation on a sample of the involved model. If the
45 474218 : It is Boeing own blueprints that determines how the parts are manufactured and assembled. If in fact the parts were not made and/or assembled in acco
46 HiJazzey : Since a lot of people here haven't watched the report, I'll lay out the main issues highlighted: - the issue relates to fuselage chords and bear strap
47 pylon101 : Actually you should remember National Geographic documentary about non-conformed parts. It was about a Boeing or MD crash/incident/accident. And there
48 Daysleeper : Are you referring to Partnair Flight 394? If so then that was due to counterfeit parts being installed which is a quite different to whats happening
49 pylon101 : Right, right. It was a blast, ha? Sure there is difference between counterfeit parts and those not manufactured to specs. The first is a disaster. The
50 Grid : That's not a good use of the quoting function. My response was linked to another poster's response to the statement that the program directly attacke
51 Aesma : I hope not since that would mean your system is screwed up ! Revealing legitimate secrets is one thing, but revealing fraud is another thing entirely
52 Post contains images Daysleeper : This was mentioned in the report its self. Initially they were told that they would be protected from re-cimination and their identity kept secret by
53 bikerthai : Thanks for the summary. All the items in quote assured me that Boeing was diligent in trying to solve the problem. The part about not filling non-con
54 AAExecPlat : If you have not seen the full-length report, you can't say what you just did. Some individuals within Boeing did due diligence, but Boeing as a whole
55 AirNZ : Nothing at all wrong with use of the Quote function. I was answering your post and which I do not feel comes across in the way you now state you mean
56 777jaah : I don't know if this has been answered, but the 737s that broke up were designed to do that?? If so, there isn't much to talk about this program. If n
57 Post contains images bikerthai : Yes I did not see the report. However, what I said was "my own assurance" which may infer that I am gullible. "Boeing diligent in trying to solve the
58 AAExecPlat : Although you may technically be correct, in this case, not only did Boeing not admit the issues and fix them, but they continued to use the non-confo
59 dynamicsguy : I feel that the program did itself a disservice by trying to link the allegations with the way the airplanes broke up. I almost stopped watching afte
60 Post contains images bikerthai : I'll try to watch it sometimes. But I can not guarantee that my opinion will be changed. Considering, I am not quite an impartial participant on this
61 rolfen : The skeleton has probably some tolerance to misalignment. Yet if an aircraft fails, it is possible to hold the worker responsible for not following pr
62 bikerthai : Boeing as a company is responsible. A manager is a representative of the company. Even if the employee is at fault, it is the company's responsibilit
63 dz09 : According to the documentary, the operating parameters of the certified airplane are based on the very tight manufacturing tolerances, achievable onl
64 rolfen : It gets pretty "intense" in the end as they involve the FAA, then the the DOJ and the whole Governement of the United States by extension - as it sta
65 bikerthai : Now that I had a chance to view the video, I can say that it did not change my mind. The video looks good. However there is one glaring item missing t
66 rolfen : The 707 was "crashed" on a flat runway, and stayed on it. This was not the case with the 737s.[Edited 2010-12-17 16:09:13]
67 rottenray : I don't see how this could possibly be true. The cert of any aircraft is based upon strength, performance, et cetera - not necessarily a particular m
68 Grid : OK, I am satisfied. If the reporting is as irresponsible as some make it out to be, I am surprised the report did even mention this accident. They re
69 rolfen : True. Yet such an investigation might result in much more then fines. This defect (if any) cannot really be fixed.[Edited 2010-12-17 16:55:22]
70 Daysleeper : Its clear you haven't watched it as the motives of the whistle blowers isn't relevant. The evidence is what requires explaining - such as the interna
71 dz09 : Strength can be defined in different terms. A friction type connection for example has a higher strength than bearing connection. A friction type con
72 474218 : Could you please explain how or why "this defect (if any) can not be fixed"?
73 XaraB : I watched the video, and I'm with both sides on this one: The piece is disclosing shoddy corporate culture at several corporations and agencies, and t
74 Daysleeper : I think given the nature of the parts it's going to take time for these issues to take effect. Possibly causing incidents such as JAL123 where weak,
75 rolfen : I have jumped to conclusions too hastily - I don't know the details. I just understood that the most of the parts that make up the aircraft frame are
76 HiJazzey : XaraB puts it well. Just because planes are not falling from the sky doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Cracks are showing up in numbers on airplane
77 rottenray : Ah the smell of fresh flames on a Saturday morning. I missed the memo stating that we were confined to discussing the merits of this issue based on on
78 474218 : All this was to have taken place on 737's built between 1996 and 2004 so: when does the FAA issue an Airworthiness Directive to inspect for these non-
79 Daysleeper : Your welcome, As I stated, from the nature of your post it's clear you have not been able to get a complete picture of what the documentary discussed
80 dynamicsguy : Actually you'll get a far better idea of what the problems actually are from reading the PDFs than watching the TV program. Being made for TV require
81 Post contains links 474218 : The weak link to me saying there are "ribs" in a fuselage. What is a "chord" and where are they located on an aircraft? Boeing's response to Aljazeer
82 Daysleeper : In this they state that the Defense department investigated the claims and found them without merit, however the report by the defence department con
83 Post contains links dynamicsguy : I have just re-read the memo. Nowhere in that memo, unless I missed it, does it mention catastrophic failure. In fact, nowhere does it even mention a
84 rottenray : Source on this?
85 Daysleeper : Multuple SDR's inwhich corrosion and cracks have been located. I And my apologies, the Memo just states that the integrity of the parts is a problem,
86 Post contains links rottenray : ... My request for source information was answered with... It seems the official definition for "SDR" is "Special Drawing Right." Source: CAA Website
87 Grid : My, my it is getting catty in here. I bet there are multiple definitions for SDR and I doubt that any of them can be pinned down as "official." And i
88 Post contains links rottenray : Honestly, Grid, I'm not trying to be "catty" here. I guess I should thank you for making a "genuine contribution" to this thread. "I bet there are mu
89 Grid : I don't have a better definition; there are a few dozen meanings for every abbreviation. Obviously people in different fields make up their own defini
90 Daysleeper : How about using the SDR referenced multiple times in this thread as a start? And what does my age have anything to do with what I post on here? As yo
91 Grid : Ouch, that must sting a little bit. It looks like this thread can get back on track now that your an appropriate reply. Let's all be sports about it
92 bikerthai : It's a long time since I worked on the fuselage, but for those who are not familiar and was not paying attention to the video. 1) The bear strap ment
93 Daysleeper : Excellent infomation, Thankyou So perhaps this isn't that serious then, From what your saying these are "fail safe" devices which would prevent a cra
94 Post contains links 474218 : "Structural Difficulty Report" All the information you should ever need: http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/
95 bikerthai : It is serious if there are no safeguard to make sure damage is not repaired. Like the program said. If the straps failed, there would be a catastroph
96 bikerthai : So if Boeing did pass on lower quality parts to the airline, then the burden is now upon the airline to inspect, maintain and repair these parts as n
97 474218 : Not only should you watch the program, which is completely one sided, but you must read the DCIS Reports. Some of the DCIS Reports describe the "fail
98 flyorski : I am sure those customers would not be happy if this did happen. If this was a real issue, and these aircraft did get built using the techniques desc
99 zeke : Are you able to remind me where the 737 series fits in the design philosophy ? - early aircraft were designed to have a safe life - then came along f
100 bikerthai : Being certified and having good quality does not necessarily mean the same thing. According to Boeing, all the parts delivered are certified (one way
101 Post contains links flood : I don't think the events are being questioned, really. Up for debate are the potential risks for the aircraft, if any. Perhaps airlines are following
102 Post contains images mandala499 : I just saw the video last night... OK... so what happens when a 707 is in "some control" and crashed in probably broadly similar impact characteristic
103 rolfen : Makes sense! Yet only the FAA can make an aircraft non-certified for flight. The Boeing type certificate was issued based on Boeing drawings, which I
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