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General Airport Chaos In The UK - And Europe  
User currently offlineplanesmith From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 23651 times:

BHX is not alone - absolute chaos prevailed in many UK airports and many European ones as well but there are so many issues raised that MUST be addressed in the future.

My family were due to travel BHX FRA JNB on Sunday; they spent all that day attempting to contact LH and as it became apparent that their flight is operated by SN. It soon became obvious that the only details available referred pax to that carrier.

1: They spent virtually all that day trying to contact both carriers by internet and phone at a cost of 10p per minute (more than 2½-hours to LH) and no less than 60p per minute for 3-hours to SN - they obviously learned a lot from Mr O'Leary, turning delays and cancellations into a profit centre is no less than brilliant but it will certainly affect future travel decisions for us..

2: BHX website appeared to crash by early afternoon so no information was forthcoming from that source.

3: Airports and airlines unilaterally were all but impossible to contact - passengers were left with the distinct impression that they were being avoided at any cost; at no point during the day was it possible to talk to an actual person.

LHR posted profits of UK£12 BILLION last year yet they decided to invest just £6 million on snow precautions - Hmm...

LH is rapidly becoming one of the few major carriers in Europe - it would be nice to know that they actually employed people rather than machines. It would have been nice to try the A380 but I doubt I'll be doing it soon.

182 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 23504 times:

So you think that for a few days every year a carrier should employ people for 365 days just to cope with extraordinary situations we currently have? They'd be broker quicker than you can say Billion.

I am sure that BAA made a profit, but 12 Billion Pound? They haven't made that much in turnover, and that is the amount before taxes, costs and all these other minor items that reduce profits.

Next time you want to travel in times when weather is bad try the airlines website, go to schedules, type the flight number and date and from where to destination and you find the status of your flight. At no costs.

You are right in one point, the regular carriers learned from MOL how to rip off a certain type of traveller.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinekdhurst380 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23430 times:

Really annoys me when people moan about these things yet do nothing to help themselves, airlines have been ENCOURAGING people to check the websites for flight status reports due to high call volumes. Most of them even allow you to change your itinerary online. So don't claim that you were forced into it with a gun to your head! Front page of Ryanair's website for example links in bold letters to a page telling you how to rebook flights free of charge.

BAA don't create airline flight schedules, nor do Birmingham Airport, nor any airport operator! it's up to the airline whether to delay or cancel a flight, so if you can't access the airports website, go to the airlines instead; and as far as I can tell there have been no issues with the information presented on any of these.

Use a bit of common sense when you next travel, if you don't want to pay for a phonecall, check a website that will tell you exactly what a call centre will.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23263 times:

I checked that the LH web portal that gives information about flight status is online and reacts very fast. There is a chaos of more than 1000 flights ex FRA cancelled the last days due to the bad weather and many other airports completely closed. Of course, the information they give is as the status is now - what the reality out there with real weather makes from it waits to be seen.

I'm sure everybody on duty is working as much as he can, LH is running extra flights, and everybody hopes that the rain on wednesday comes true...


User currently offlineRichie72 From Sweden, joined Sep 2007, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23262 times:

Just hearing a rumour that LHR is closing again -can anybody confirm if this is true?

Thanks
R


User currently offlinegosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23239 times:

Quoting Richie72 (Reply 4):
Just hearing a rumour that LHR is closing again -can anybody confirm if this is true?

Not sure, but BA will be no help! Their site is down now.


User currently offlinemisterar From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2010, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23160 times:

Say what you like about MOL and Ryanair etc but my flight was cancelled from Stansted on Saturday. We were on the plane for about 45 minutes before being advised to return to the terminal building. When I returned home my application for a refund was processed immediately, an apologetic email was also sent to me advising that FR were providing additional flights the next day (Sunday 19th) and I could change to any of these free of charge. My return flight from DUB was operated by BD and it took me 23 (I kid you not) attempts to contact them by telephone to organise my refund (their website wasn't very clear on what my options were and in fact directed you to call them). In my opinion Ryanair have been more than fair so far and I commend them for it.

Regards

[Edited 2010-12-20 05:45:41]

User currently offlinegosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23138 times:

Quoting misterar (Reply 6):
Say what you like about MOL and Ryanair etc but my flight was cancelled from Stansted on Saturday. We were on the plane for about 45 minutes before being advised to return to the terminal building. When I returned home my application for a refund was processed immediately, an apologetic email was also sent to me advising that FR were providing additional flights the next day (Sunday 19th) and I could change to any of these free of charge. My return flight from DUB was operated by BD and it took me 23 (I kid you not) attempts to contact them by telephone to organise my refund (their website wasn't very clear on what my options were). In my opinion Ryanair have been more than fair so far and I commend them for it.

Agreed totally. Ryanair get a lot of slack on this website, usually from people that have probably never even flown with them. I was caught up in a similar situation to the current one a couple of years ago and their communication was excellent. They made everything very simple. So I totally agree Ryanair know how to communicate effectively.


User currently offlineA320boy From UK - England, joined Jun 2010, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 23096 times:

We have had an email from operations at BA stating the southern runway will not re open till Wednesday, and with temp of -7 at moment and 15cm on snow expected tonight expect disruption for several days

User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 23039 times:

Consider it to be a "stupid monday comment". But it seems to me a bit strange that in our technologically advanced age, just 15 cm of snow can cause such a serious problems.

Sven


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1704 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22991 times:

Currently in the news, BRU will be closed untill Wednesday morning due to shortage of De-icing fluid.....


flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22894 times:
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Quoting DALCE (Reply 10):
BRU will be closed untill Wednesday morning due to shortage of De-icing fluid.....

How ironic that the airport has been able to handle the snow more or less well and had few cancellations, and in the end it is the state of highways in general and the ban on trucks using French highways in particular that is forcing them to close as deicing resupplies aren't arriving fast enough.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4899 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22825 times:

I understand that "bad" weather - such as Europe is seeing right now - is not that common and that the training and equipment needed to keep things ticking along may not be seen as a smart cost to incur, but surely the boatloads of money lost for every day a major airport is closed far outweigh the short term pain of having the proper equipment and people in place?! If Canadian airports closed for 15cm of snow and temperatures of -7 this country would grind to a halt for about half the year...

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 9):

Consider it to be a "stupid monday comment". But it seems to me a bit strange that in our technologically advanced age, just 15 cm of snow can cause such a serious problems.

Couldn't agree more...

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlinenycdave From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22825 times:

As someone who grew up in SYR, all I can think is, "oh, if only they could airlift some of our snow equipment..." Seriously, I remember taking off from there in conditions that'd have other places shut down for a week. Just as long as the destination wasn't also in a snowstorm (and thus usually closed/backed up)!

User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22690 times:

Quoting yowza (Reply 12):
If Canadian airports closed for 15cm of snow and temperatures of -7 this country would grind to a halt for about half the year...

How many days a year do you guys deal with snow? I bet you have seen more days with falling snow in one winter that I have seen my whole life. For some countries 15cm of snow doesn't seem much but for us it is. I am 27 and never saw a white pack of snow to last more then one week, let alone 15cm of it.

Besides, it is not only AMS here in the Netherlands. When snow is falling, our whole infrastructure is a Chaos. We learn to deal with it for a few days a year. Maybe when this is a yearly returning event in the future there need to be some changes but who can tell?



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineflynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22645 times:

Quoting yowza (Reply 12):
I understand that "bad" weather - such as Europe is seeing right now - is not that common and that the training and equipment needed to keep things ticking along may not be seen as a smart cost to incur, but surely the boatloads of money lost for every day a major airport is closed far outweigh the short term pain of having the proper equipment and people in place?! If Canadian airports closed for 15cm of snow and temperatures of -7 this country would grind to a halt for about half the year...

Agreed. This is more an issue of airports not used to handle snow at all, rather than being extreme weather. To my knowledge the airports in Scandinavia and Finland is operating more or less normally. Maybe some delays and the cancellations have mostly been to the above mentioned airports, but no airport have been shut down for whole days.


User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22627 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 10):
Currently in the news, BRU will be closed untill Wednesday morning due to shortage of De-icing fluid.....

Perhaps severe snowstorms are unusual, but the quantity of de-icing fluid needed, should be approximately known for this period of year?

Sven


User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4899 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22611 times:

Quoting morvious (Reply 14):
How many days a year do you guys deal with snow?

Many  

I have lived in the Netherlands (near Wageningen) and I know it doesn't snow much. My point was simply that if AMS or LHR of FRA is closed for say 5 days during the busiest period of travel in the calendar year, surely the cost of snowploughs, salt and training can be justified? Even if the cost is footed by a coalition consisting of airlines and airport authorities? I know AC are extremely frustrated at LHR because they could easily provide the knowledge needed to keep things ticking over...

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineCaptainMeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22594 times:

Quoting morvious (Reply 14):
Maybe when this is a yearly returning event in the future there need to be some changes but who can tell?

That isn't the point! Two gateways to the world, AMS and LHR, should be prepared for any eventuality. AMS especially because the Netherlands as a whole relies on transit business as one of the mainstays of their economy.

If for example someone uses the logic (as per another thread) that we seen snow in 2001 and nothing from 2002-2008, and then snow in 2009-2010, the trend as been set. But how long does the trend for snow need to be set, 2010-2015? 'oh we have had snow for last 5 years, perhaps now we should invest a few hundred million considering the few hundred billion lost'. Guaranteed there will be snow snow in 2016 if that is the case!  



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5161 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22574 times:

Quoting yowza (Reply 12):
surely the boatloads of money lost for every day a major airport is closed far outweigh the short term pain of having the proper equipment and people in place?!

   I refer you to your original statement.

Quoting yowza (Reply 12):
I understand that "bad" weather - such as Europe is seeing right now - is not that common and that the training and equipment needed to keep things ticking along may not be seen as a smart cost to incur,

Yes, it is not that common. As someone stated in another thread, weather like this has hit London once in the last 10 years (excluding this year)

The cost is far from short term - maintenance and training is a continual cost.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22570 times:

Quoting yowza (Reply 12):
If Canadian airports closed for 15cm of snow and temperatures of -7 this country would grind to a halt for about half the year...

So many Canadian members on here (in various threads) in the last few days have said this. Most of Europe cannot be compared to the Canada due to the massive difference in the amount of snowfall received on a yearly basis, meaning there are obviously going to be differences in how snow and 'bad' weather is dealt with.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22547 times:
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Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 16):
Perhaps severe snowstorms are unusual, but the quantity of de-icing fluid needed, should be approximately known for this period of year?

It is, but the airport can't be resupplied fast enough. Deicing fluids come from France. Between generally deteriorating road conditions and a ban on trucks using highways in France, it just isn't getting to the airport fast enough to keep up with demand.

Just like you don't have snow removal equipment to deal with every snowflake, you don't build a storage area large enough to last the entire winter season.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22493 times:

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 9):
Consider it to be a "stupid monday comment". But it seems to me a bit strange that in our technologically advanced age, just 15 cm of snow can cause such a serious problems.

15cm...what a joke. 6 inches of snow.

Quoting planesmith (Thread starter):
LHR posted profits of UK£12 BILLION last year yet they decided to invest just £6 million on snow precautions - Hmm...

Couldn't agree more!!! It's nobody's fault but the airport. I don't care if it only snows once every 5 years, if you're the busiest airport in the world you better have the equipment to deal with it! I bet for 50 million you could buy 200 pieces of snow removal trucks and never affect flights with anything less that a foot of snow. Get with it LHR!!!

Officials from LHR should come to ORD to see how to deal with it. During really heavy snow...10 planes take off, snow removal moves down the runway. then 10 more planes etc. It works and only 30%-40% of flights get canceled instead of all!


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22440 times:

Sure, upstate NY and Canada have more snowfall than we Europeans, except the Scandinavians of course, can imagine. But we are more dense populated as well which means that the infrastructure, roads, rails and airports are pushed to the limit in many locations here.

Airports like LHR and FRA and to a lesser extend AMS and CDG are operating at capacity. There is no slot left for sunshine hours, meaning that in bad weather flights have to be cancelled. We do still fairly well here at FRA but when we get that much snow things turn bad here as well. We don't know where to put the stuff in front of our houses anymore and the spaces at the airport where shovels deposit snow cleaned from the runways and stands are getting scarce as well.

In bad days, slots are freed by cancelling most domestic flights in Germany and some European flights as well. Passengers are asked to turn to the rails straight but the rails have difficulties as well. in the old days, steam engoines did run in any kind of weather, Diesel was a bit difficult already and high tech ICE trains freeze. Too bad for th airlines this happens before Christmas and not between Jan 15 and February 28.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinenoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22361 times:

The people each time keep reeling on about how "unusual" and "unprecedented" the snow is. So "unprecedented" that this is about the 5th time THIS YEAR the UK has ground to a halt because of heavy snow.

Last year we had roughly the same amount, same as the year before.

Listen up people, this is a regular occurrence and not the "once in a blue moon" occasion we are told it is each and every time. We live at the same latitude as Russia and Canada, yet have the infrastructure of somewhere further south.

The snow isn't even that bad in the London area, only around 12 inches I believe. Two weeks ago we had 3ft of snow up here and yet the buses still ran, MAN and DSA remained open, trains normal and roads all open as usual.

This just smacks of complete lack of preparation on the part of the authorities down there.


25 konrad : Correct me if I am wrong, but another notable difference between ORD and say LHR or FRA operations is that those 30-40% of flights are often being ca
26 aerokiwi : I think you can liken it to security measures - terrorist attacks occur fairly infrequently, yet we have the constant secuirty measures in place to pr
27 Post contains links HELyes : BBC: How HEL makes it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12042213 "The last time it was forced to close because of the weather was in 2003. That
28 PanHAM : There is no valid comparison . HEL has 3 runways and a fraction of the traffic FRA or LHR has. Besides that snow is expected in Finland or Sweden wher
29 Aither : Airports in the air travel industry are by far the ones making the highest profit margins. How much extra de-icing trucks etc would cost for BAA ? The
30 joeljack : Very good point. Especially 12-24 hrs on big storms. If 2 feet is forecast for ORD, you'll still see almost 100% of flight canceled. I'm talking abou
31 DALCE : Well, I do remember a couple of years ago a VS A340-600 stranded in AMS after coming back from somewhere down under with some fuel or engine problems
32 planesarecool : What's that got to do with anything? Anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows that the UK has a completely different climate to Russia and Canada.
33 ZRH : As ZRH is able to handle snow and was not closed any moment we had the advantage to have different diversions as for example two SQ A 380 at the same
34 ocracoke : How about a more southern point of view? ATL probably has a warmer winter climate that LHR does. Like LHR, it is pretty unusual for ATL to get hit by
35 flyingfool : Please do not compare AMS with LHR when it comes to snow removal. AMS airport was only closed for a few hours during the heavy snowfall last week. Wh
36 noelg : Evidently not with the bad weather we have experienced this year. Temperatures struggling to get above -10C during the day for over a month now, down
37 jpyvr : It's too late for your parents in this case, but a suggestion for anyone else that finds they might have to contact an airline and expect to be put o
38 luxair747SP : Hey can anyone tell me how the situation in LCY and LGW should be on wednesday? Help would be great cheers
39 CaptainMeeerkat : My point exactly! Although I didn't illustrate it very well in my previous post. Other airports which seen unusual amounts of snow fall CAN continue
40 UAL747DEN : You were obviously nowhere near FRA for the past couple of days, this place was a complete zoo, this was not your standard bad day at the airport. Ti
41 AirNZ : I don't mean to be rude and, with all due respect, if their flight was known to be operated by SN why contact LH and spend hours doing it? Well said,
42 CaptainMeeerkat : Yes, and it is a disgrace that DUB is closed too, and the entire transport infastructure of this country has gone belly up because of a few cm of sno
43 junction : Not a single person complaining would pay a penny more in taxes to buy snow removal equipment needed once in five or ten years.
44 Mortyman : I have read recently that Oslo Gardermoen Airport in Norway has only been closed down twice since it's opening in 1998 and that was in some extreme w
45 CaptainMeeerkat : DUB has just closed now also
46 Aither : Because we are supposed to already pay for that. Airports have the highest profit margin by far in the air travel industry. So the question is : wher
47 noelg : Of course I would. Why not, to guarantee the airports can continue to operate? Add it to the departure taxes to cover it, and split across the millio
48 willd : Looking at the news this morning and reading the papers the issue in general is actually the infrastructure around the airports. I was badly affected
49 noelg : Not even heavy snow. A couple of inches, 3 days ago, and the airport is still ground to a halt. 72 hours ffs, it is just pathetic really. Having flow
50 Giancavia : Lotta Bizjets been landing in Luton. Been atleast 20 the last cpl of hours.. Flights seem quite normal.. LAME we havent had any good diversions so far
51 yowza : Calm down guys, I'm not knocking anyone here. I'm just asking at what point does it become a worthwhile exercise to re-evaluate having such equipment
52 vlad1971 : Please do not forget that in OSL airport heating elements are installed on the runways . It is melting snow into water and then removed with machines
53 noelg : LTN: Open as normal LGW: Open as normal STN: Open as normal LCY: Open as normal BRS: Open as normal BHX: Open as normal EMA: Open as normal LHR: Bare
54 robffm2 : I was at FRA yesterday afternoon. There were many trucks carrying snow from one area of the airport to the other. And not only airport vehicles but a
55 PanHAM : I wsn't commenting the situation at FRA but the opening posters remarks. But OK, let's go from BHX to FRA where I live about 30 km north of the airpo
56 Hywel : Summed up perfectly. Unfortunately LHR always has been, and always will be a building site. It's poorly laid out, cramped, confusing. They don't have
57 Post contains images nycdave : Believe it or not, we actually DO have just as much infrastructure as you folks over there. In fact, that we're less densely populated makes it even
58 planesarecool : No outbound departures from Gatwick until 6am tomorrow morning according to their Twitter page. Now I'm never one to complain about the snow disruptio
59 bochora : Can anyone confirm that Virgin 201, an A340-600 was diverted to EDI at some point. G-VRED showing on radar at EDI
60 Bthebest : The biggest problem with LHR is that it's just too small for its operations. It was mentioned earlier about HEL which has one more runway - and half t
61 macsog6 : I do, having lived in all three cities. LAX and SYD seldom close, but SFO, with the crossing active runways that do not allow concurrent operations i
62 thediplomat : And the whole world has a hissyfit when departures taxes are raised by $10 Do you think they are making it up or something?
63 Post contains links NQYGuy : May I kindly suggest you use the following website to contact airlines? Searching for specific companies can bring landline/geographic alternatives t
64 planesailing : This is true. I travel over 20 miles into LGW to work, yet those that live in Crawley have not being able to make it in. It is about being prepared.
65 planesarecool : Well seeing as four aircraft have departed since then, 7 hours before the scheduled re-opening, yes I do.
66 Post contains images pelican : And here we have two of the biggest problems together: 1. Since when is snow in winter not predictable? What part is not predictable - winter at the
67 chootie : ....so thanks to the airlines saving LOTS of money by cutting staff, they really screw each and every passenger. Shame on them for being only interes
68 thediplomat : They are an airline to make money for the shareholders. Lower fares have enabled millions of people to take an extra trip every year.
69 Post contains images Revelation : Indeed it is. Maybe you should be given the job of running BAA. I heard some manager from BAA on the radio this morning, and it's pretty clear they h
70 Post contains images chootie : unfortunately, the rifraf that have made flying a bus trip insteead of the GREAT trip it used to be..
71 Post contains images LN-KGL : No heating elements installed on the runways vlad1971, only the parts of the apron (see picture below of gate 23 at OSL)
72 Bthebest : Obviously this can be considered worthwhile in OSL, but for LHR or any airport in the UK you would have a very hard time convincing anyone to fork ou
73 Giancavia : All LHR needs is more equiptment and less crappy excuses like "we didnt know it snowed in winter". lol The closure of the airport surely costs them t
74 frmrCapCadet : Simply not true. And keeping airports running should be fee related, and not general taxes related.
75 GARUDAROD : How hard would be to rent some bulldozers and graders from nearby companies at LHR? You can't tell me the entire area around LHR doesnt have any compa
76 Viscount724 : Some major cities in western Canada (YYC and YEG to name two) have had recorded snowfall every month of the year. When I lived in YYC in the early 19
77 L410Turbolet : That's probably true with the heating system but I don't see any justification for the lack of snow removing trucks. If an airport wants to be a top
78 YVRLTN : Maybe BA could look at privately owned snow equipment at LHR... surely the cost would be less than a day of losses.
79 Revelation : Actually I'm surprised HMG didn't declare this some sort of "civil transport emergency" due to the hit on not just the people but also the economy. Y
80 prebennorholm : Imagine how the Icelandics are laughing these days. Now they don't need any longer to erupt a volcano and send us an ash cloud in order to bring chaos
81 PanHAM : To be precise, not in that quantity. That happens every 20 years or so. I live about 15 years in my house and I never had that amount we currently ha
82 Bongodog1964 : Unfortunately, such short term kneejerk reactions are rarely if ever the answer. Anyone drafted in for snow clearance work needs to have airside secu
83 PanHAM : Currently FRA is still closed, about 50 inbound long distance flights have been diverted adding to the mess we have already. Most of these flight have
84 david_itl : And in a role reversal, the UK has taken one FRA flight at least! US700 on the deck at MAN. QR007 also routed to MAN instead of heading towards LHR.
85 antidote : What's your best guess what they'll so with the pax. Wait for FRA to open or send them via train? I have family travelling YVRFRA on the 22nd and am
86 Post contains links nycdave : Just wanted to say -- as someone from the snow belt -- Most snide comments from those of us in areas proficient at snow-clearing are really just schad
87 Post contains images gosimeon : In Frankfurt now and my office literally looks at the airport. Can't believe they couldn't manage to keep at least 1 runway open. I mean, it's been sn
88 sydaircargo : FRA was closed till 9 am , but it is moving now again. we will get some rain today , that might bring some ice on the ground next to days should be +
89 fraapproach : FRA is open again since maybe 8 am. This is when I started to hear some inbound flights over my head. Also on flightradar24.com you see aircraft slowl
90 thediplomat : I think that people simply don't understand how difficult it is to clear snow and ice. Coldest december on record for many European countries. I live
91 Aesma : I like when we have snow here in the Paris suburbs. Well, I liked it until this year, anyway ! For the first time in my life I experienced the annoyin
92 NQYGuy : From Heathrow's Facebook page a few moments ago: They're even giving free rides on the Heathrow Express into London.. now fancy that.
93 Skyguy : I think something that people are not fully appreciating about LHR is why exactly has 6 inches of snow shut down the airport while other airports whic
94 Mortyman : As LN-KGL mentioned in a previous post, there is no heating on the runways at OSL. I find it amazing that such an important airport like LHR shuts do
95 AIR MALTA : All what LHR needs is a freaking 3rd runway... How on earth the UK can let its main international gateway be so unreliable... If there is fog, snow or
96 AirNZ : Precisely, and very well said. However, how many here actually take the time to figure out what they only think they know about!
97 Post contains images CaptainMeeerkat : And while you have been arguing in two threads about this, only now do you give a reason for it (agreeing 'precisely' that it is this sticky snow) wh
98 AirNZ : Let me ask a question here, of which the curiosity of such has been 'perplexing' me. To all you guys here in the United Kingdom (and anyone else who w
99 CaptainMeeerkat : AirNZ, you must think that the only reason I got up this morning was to annoy you - I assure you it wasn't! You have a valid point, it is impossible
100 PanHAM : Yes, ever since I owned cars and that is a long time. It became the law just last month in Germany BTW. You still don't need to have snow tyres, but
101 Burkhard : The major problem at FRA were not the closures of FRA, which were for hours, but the hundreds of other airports in Europe which are closed too, some f
102 CaptainMeeerkat : That is very true but you have reinforced my point, FRA is operational even in extraordinary circumstances because they are prepared for it. My compa
103 VV701 : The widely expressed view that airports like LHR should be prepared to ensure that weather conditions that historically have occurred on average aroun
104 AirNZ : I'm in full agreement with your post, but the addition of a third runway is certainly not going to answer any weather-delay problem and to assume so
105 Post contains links flynorth : You might have a point there. On the other side, your car is probably not considered to be a crucial part of UK's or Europe's infrastructure. EU is s
106 CaptainMeeerkat : Yet you are prepared for them, yes??
107 downtown273 : Since Dublin airport is closed until 1700 local, BFS is taking some of the diversions: RYR69RF Riga 13:26 13:26 DIVERTED FROM BEE046D Manchester 13:28
108 Post contains images U2380 : The EU really doesn’t need to be involved in this My opinion of course, but I feel that it is a national problem for each individual country at mos
109 AirNZ : No, I can quite adamantly tell you I am not. Indeed, I said unprecedented so why are you assuming I am, or should be? I can tolerate them yes but, fo
110 JL418 : BBC Radio 6 has said that Downing Street has offered LHR and other affected airports help under the form of "troops and lorries to clear the runways",
111 noelg : There's that word again. Definition: un·prec·e·dent·ed/ˌənˈpresəˌdəntid/ Adjective: Never done or known before Far from the snow that yet a
112 CaptainMeeerkat : Tell you what AirNZ because I'm fed up hashing and rehashing and reading and re-reading the same stuff, next year, right - If this weather repeats it
113 KiwiRob : Which is the kind of snow that we get on the west coast of Norway every year, in the 5 winters I've been here my local airport has never closed due t
114 r2rho : The problem is that the general winter chaos is no longer an exceptional event. What is happening now is exactly the same thing that happened last yea
115 mcdu : That is an absurd analogy. You may as well have included KWI and DXB in that comparison. Of course those cities would not have snow removal equipment
116 VV701 : This view is, as I have already stated, at total odds with what the spokesperson for Helsinki Vantaa airport said in a BBC interview. She very clearl
117 AirNZ : Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you from a theoretical aspect that it certainly should be possible.......I'm questioning more from the practical aspect
118 frmrCapCadet : Better weather forecasting Better use of that weather forecasting Better pre-emptive cancelling of flights FAR better communications with customers Be
119 U2380 : Seeing as it's the world’s biggest airport in terms of international passengers, I'd say yes. Being at reduced capacity for the last few days doesn
120 lofty : I note today that the BBC have said that Russia are having problems even with thousands of snow vehicles across the country. If Russia can't cope how
121 Skyguy : Yes, you're right, that is probably true. However, BAA could have better prepared for this by making sure that they had an effective and realistic "P
122 aerokiwi : If the stands really are the problem, then installation of heating devices a la Oslo would seem a reasonable response.
123 Bongodog1964 : The media are now picking up on the difference between LGW and LHR. LGW freed from the cash starpped pockets of BAA/Ferrovial made a significant inves
124 KiwiRob : Even my little airport has heated stands. The terrible thing is the UK is not prepared for winter, when I lived in London in the late 90's they they
125 jox : Of course that math holds. And I don't think anyone had expected LHR (or FRA, CDG, ...) to be totally unaffected by the snowfall ! But it is big diff
126 vfw614 : With that logic, LHR should have been able to operate with one runway rather than to close up shop for days. What stopped them from switching from on
127 thediplomat : Queue a 471 page document in twelve languages discussing the potential of a meeting to review the possibility of a report into the size of snow flake
128 Post contains images Hywel :
129 VV701 : The answer is simple. The planning permission for T5 at LHR was granted on a conditional, legally enforceable cap on total movements at the airport.
130 PPVRA : It's really high time for the CAA to give up on economic regulations. It's drying up resources that airports need to provide basic services while tyi
131 Post contains links and images PPVRA : Your post compares cleaning up aircraft stands to cleaning up runways. As discussed earlier in the thread, there's a significant difference. A snow p
132 jox : Yes and no. If you have aircraft parked at the stands, it gets complicated to clean the snow (unless you have heated aprons, like ARN or OSL). But, a
133 Giancavia : So where does BULGARIA AIR usualy operate its A319's? Coz we have one about to land in Luton (LZ-LBF) . Also a CYPRUS Airways CY3362 A320 5B-DCH .. I
134 Post contains images noelg : LOL that's brilliant Caption for the LHR pic: "I think we're gonna need another shovel"......
135 Post contains links theginge : BA don't sound too happy with the BAA......... http://www.britishairways.com/travel...lightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=4120 Last updated: 17:56 - 21 Dece
136 Post contains links PPVRA : http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...d=a06af063071c4f6380ff37f6603dc129 Makes sense. Like air accidents though, this seems to be the compounding of
137 Revelation : Well, given the airport is closed, and we are talking about members of the military (sorry, I wasn't very clear about that), I think the security iss
138 Post contains links david_itl : From BBC on the cold snap"The company's financial performance has been improving in the past year, but it is still loss-making. In its latest financi
139 Post contains images BasilFawlty : It's not difficult but it costs money... and that's very difficult for the financial managers of the BAA, AMS, etc, because increasing the profits, s
140 Bongodog1964 : When Ferrovial were in the process of overbidding for LHR, the CAA stated that they would not allow passenger charges to be increased to finance thei
141 Boeing747_600 : I wonder if LH will send a 744 to DFW tomorrow seeing as how there's no way in hell they can catch up on the pax loads with the A333 that's currently
142 PPVRA : I don't believe BAA would raise pax charges, but rather landing fees. Pricing regulation is deadly in the long run, if the CAA has any worries about
143 teme82 : Hey did anyone of you read the BBC's article how the OPS are done in HEL?
144 Post contains images U2380 : You could only say that to the British without causing mass outrage. Even our newsreaders are at it. But seriously, try and say something like that t
145 ORDflier : Here is the issue as I see it... BAA and the local airport operators across Europe affected by this storm could care less about having to spend one mo
146 Speedbird555 : Don't speak too soon. I personally felt offended by the word "Brittard". It's unecessary and the pictures and other captions say it all without the i
147 U2380 : Oh I don't, it frustrates me. But it's only a joke and hence I feel it should be taken as one. But when I hear foreigners at Heathrow on the news bas
148 PPVRA : No movement = no revenue for BAA. Meanwhile, they are still racking up expenses.
149 lofty : Hay its not all about us Brits what about the EK B777-300 flight crew who could not even keep their plane on the taxiway at BHX.
150 Bongodog1964 : Whats the difference ? either way its more money on the ticket price. The CAA doesn't have the power to address the airport operators debt financing,
151 prebennorholm : Much of this chaos is a result of the fact that it is in fact impossible - or at least extremely inefficient - to privatise major airports. When airpo
152 L410Turbolet : Here's a million dollar question: I've got friends who are supposed to travel with their 10-month old toddler to the US on 26th. They're quite loyal S
153 Post contains links and images YVRLTN : Move all the guys with shovels and everything else out of the way, make sure the parking brake is on good, and put the engines up to full power! Effe
154 PPVRA : A hike in landing fees could actually see a reduction in cost per pax because that creates an incentive for airlines to use larger aircraft. Effects
155 ZRH : I would not call it a downgrade because the 333 and 343 have the same size.
156 prebennorholm : That's correct when talking about regional traffic. And you forgot the ship. Last time I visited London I went by boat across the North Sea - 18 hour
157 Aesma : I can't speak for the UK or Germany, but I can attest that CDG didn't operate perfectly normally (I'm now going to spend christmas with my neighbours
158 PanHAM : That may be so in some countries. Not in Germany, Fraport has gone public on the stock market and before they did thaqt,, a commercial management was
159 Bongodog1964 : The CAA told Ferrovial that the figures would not be recalculated to take into account the increased debt resulting from the takeover. Thus they have
160 VV701 : Landing fees at LHR are variable depending on the registered maximum take-off weight of the aircraft. Because of this BA frequently follows a policy
161 climb1 : Interesting to see the "upgrades" used to try and clear the backlog. BA have sent a B777 to AMS on flight 438. This is usually operated by an A320. Im
162 Post contains images BasilFawlty : KLM will send a 77W to LHR tomorrow.
163 Skyguy : AA flew a flight, AA9230 from BRU to LHR at 11.45am today. Not sure which divert this was and what aircraft. Anyone have any info.?
164 eicvd : Im looking at the DUB area radar website now & just over flying Ireland is a UA 744 routing LHR-DEN.
165 prebennorholm : It's the same at CPH. SAS planes are registered with several different MTOW's on otherwise identical planes, so I guess that it is more or less the s
166 Post contains images teme82 : And AY will be sending A343
167 WNbob : Reason why I dont take any of my holidays this time of the year. The hassle, the "charge me anything, 'coz everything is full" is not my kind of fun.
168 DanTaylor2006 : Are BA chartering aircraft in to shift the stranded pax? I've seen a Jet2 737 on radar tonight operating LHR-NCL with a BA callsign, and just noticed
169 VV701 : Looks like it. Titan's 752 G-ZAPX appears to have operated LHR-GLA-LHR-GLA-LHR (BA1476/83/86/93). (SHT7U is tha call sign for flight BA1493.) Jet2's
170 Post contains images okie : Last Okie heard was the snowfall on Anet homepage could cause 24 hours of flight cancellations at LHR. Okie
171 VV701 : G-ZAPX did overnight at LHR. It is currently on the same BA rotation (BA1476/83 LHR-GLA-LHR) that it flew yesterday.
172 Post contains links LN-KGL : London Gatwick has earlier this week ordered snow removal equipment worth almost GBP 5 million from Øveraasen, Norway. According to Øveraasen, their
173 teme82 : Did anyone photographed the AY A343 in LHR on the 23th of DEC?
174 Flyingfox27 : I got one photo, wasnt very good as was approaching Heathrow, thought someon on here said it was going to leave at 12:30pm whe it left around 11am?
175 teme82 : Ok, was it the "new" bird from AF or one of the 300E's ??? I'm just curious ...
176 Post contains images teme82 : Or ask the snow-how from HEL Even Santa and Foreign Minister Mr. Stubb had press conference at HEL about how HEL keeps the ops running...
177 PanHAM : I wonder how STO, OSL and HEL would operate in times of dense snow falls if all their three runway slots are filled to capacity? There is no dout that
178 teme82 : In HEL it takes around 15 minutes to clear the runway from snow. And they do have 3 runways in use during the rush hours.
179 Mortyman : Then why are there talks of getting a third runway at OSL ?[Edited 2010-12-25 03:32:50]
180 Boeing747_600 : Even in terms of Pax capacity?
181 Post contains links Viscount724 : LH has identical seating configuration on some 343s as on their 333s (8F, 48J, 165Y). LH has a couple of other 343 configurations with fewer premium
182 VV701 : BA have announced that they estimate that weather disruption in the UK, the rest of Europe and the USA in December cost them £50 million. I am assumi
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