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The Swedish Wire: Lufthansa Plans To Acquire SAS  
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16166 times:

http://www.swedishwire.com/business/...835-lufthansa-plans-to-acquire-sas

Not a surprise. More experience with snow masses could help, too.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16013 times:
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Quoting Burkhard (Thread starter):
Not a surprise.


If confirmed, it would indeed be no surprise at all. LH has it's eyes on the Scandinavian market for quite some time now. But I thought they were going to wait (and they are still waiting  ) and see first until SAS has improved its financial position.

That is why I am writing "if confirmed". Until that confirmation comes, we will not know for sure.  . It would be a very good move by LH in the competitive fight they have with AF/KLM and BA/IB.

[Edited 2010-12-23 02:28:48]

User currently offlineHECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15921 times:
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Will anti-trust bodies in both Brussels and Washington approve such acquisition by LH?

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15809 times:

Maybe they realize they can get it cheaper now than in a few years when economic upswing gets SAS to better numbers by itself...

I agree it is the most important SA partner that needs to be secured against AF/KL/AZ and BA/IB/AB.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15781 times:

Quoting HECA (Reply 2):
Will anti-trust bodies in both Brussels and Washington approve such acquisition by LH?

Only mimimal impact is between Germany/Swizzerland/Austria and Scandinavia, and there is a lot of competition. A merger within an alliance does not change much anti-trust wise.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15748 times:

LH must be like hard tasks 

Fixing SAS, and making it profitable again, will be a huge task. LH really are taking over Europe one country at a time. Switzerland, Austria, Belgium and now Scandanavia, along with their push into Italy. If true, it will be interesting to see this play out.


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15716 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
Only mimimal impact is between Germany/Swizzerland/Austria and Scandinavia, and there is a lot of competition. A merger within an alliance does not change much anti-trust wise.

Lufthansa and SAS already has a joint-venture on all flights between Germany and Scandinavia so an acquisition wouldn't change much. In addition do they code-share with Swiss on some flights between Switzerland and Scandinavia. Not sure about Austrian, but they might have some code share with them also


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15645 times:

Would they keep SAS as a separate 'brand' and keep many of their routes as is? That seemes to be the trend so far with the recent mergers of majors in the Euro based airliners.

User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15622 times:

I've heard this for many years.. But I'm still hoping it will happen.

I think LHs point of view is that they can run SK a lot better than SK does and thus make it profitable and I do agree with them. Just look at what they've done with LX and is about to do with SN. My question remain if LH would be interested in paying for taking over a sinking ship. SK has gotten quite a few cash infusions from the governments lately and I would think that the governments would like at least a small amount of that back but I don't think it will happen. Thus, in the end, the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian taxpayer end up buying SK for LH (in a way at least).

I don't think there will be a problem with the anti-trust bodies in Brussels since the Scandinavian market is a beehive of carriers all trying to make the most. And all will gain on LHs take-over in the short term, traveling publics reaction to a take-over will be lukewarm at first, so I think there will be little, if any, protests from other carriers that see an opportunity to grow their marketshare. After a couple of years when LH has cemented their position and done their magic I can see Ryanair and Norwegian being less than happy but then it will be too late..

I for one is keeping my fingers crossed, but not holding my breath.



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3996 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15590 times:

It is no real surprise. Outgoing CEO Mayrhuber gave an interview recently in which he stated that the integration of LX, OS and SN was more or less done and BD was on a good course so that the next step would be looking for further acquisitions rather sooner than later.

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15398 times:

Quoting HECA (Reply 2):
Will anti-trust bodies in both Brussels and Washington approve such acquisition by LH?

I wouldn't see any particular issue with it, and especially as it would be an aquisition within the same Alliance so thus anti-trust issues should be minimal.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15174 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 5):
Fixing SAS, and making it profitable again, will be a huge task.

   But LH have more capital to make the required changes. And they have so many airplanes, that they could streamline SK fleet without a huge capital cost. For example both OS ans SK operates the A320 family alongside the 737NG. OS could get SK's A320 airplanes, and SK could get OS 737NG. That would be a start.

And we have the Bloomberg news:

Quote:

Cologne-based Lufthansa may announce takeover plans for SAS as early as the first half of 2011 pending talks with the governments of Sweden, Denmark and Norway, which own half of the Stockholm-based carrier, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions. SAS shares surged as much as 15 percent today.

Buying SAS would bolster Lufthansa’s central-European dominance and offer shorter polar flights from the Scandinavian company’s hubs to Canada and the northern U.S., said the person, who declined to be identified because the plans aren’t public.
Quote:
While buying SAS would add sufficient traffic for Lufthansa to leapfrog Air France-KLM and become Europe’s biggest carrier, it would divert vital funds away from strengthening the global position, said Royal Bank of Scotland Plc’s Andrew Lobbenberg.

Read the article here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...over-europe-led-m-a-expansion.html

[Edited 2010-12-23 05:30:06]


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13832 times:

Not really much of a surprise, it's been expected for quite a while...is SK still the largest carrier in the Norwegian market, or has Norwegian taken that mantle now?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13750 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 12):
Not really much of a surprise, it's been expected for quite a while...is SK still the largest carrier in the Norwegian market, or has Norwegian taken that mantle now?

I beleive it is Norwegian


User currently offlinegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13503 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 5):
LH really are taking over Europe one country at a time. Switzerland, Austria, Belgium and now Scandanavia, along with their push into Italy.

Oddly put. Creepy.


User currently offlinePlaneWasted From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12982 times:

SAS is in a much better position now than a few years ago, and it's getting better, if LH wait too long the price might increase a lot. One problem might be that LH knows SAS needs them, and therefore offers a very low price.

User currently offlinenavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1207 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12895 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
If confirmed, it would indeed be no surprise at all. LH has it's eyes on the Scandinavian market for quite some time now. But I thought they were going to wait (and they are still waiting ) and see first until SAS has improved its financial position.

I think that expertise from LH is the way to improve SAS financial position. I doubt SAS can do it on their own. They have proved too many times that they have no clue in fleet management and airplane purchases. Too many types and also wrong types (who wants to buy a 737-600 second hand)... There are many ways LH expertise could come in handy at SAS



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12681 times:

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 14):
Oddly put. Creepy.

Very creepy. What's next LOT then Aeroflot?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12553 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
And they have so many airplanes, that they could streamline SK fleet without a huge capital cost. For example both OS ans SK operates the A320 family alongside the 737NG. OS could get SK's A320 airplanes, and SK could get OS 737NG. That would be a start.

It would be a start, but I' d rather see an order for 319s first, so as to replace the 735s, 734s and M82s.
Then 319-NEO and 321-NEO to replace 736s, 73Gs and 738s.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
I agree it is the most important SA partner that needs to be secured against AF/KL/AZ and BA/IB/AB.

LANTAM is indeed even more critical for LH.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 8):
and I would think that the governments would like at least a small amount of that back but I don't think it will happen.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 17):
What's next LOT then Aeroflot?

In Europe, I'd say LO and TP, then new OA , JK and perhaps VS.

SU is already commited in SkyTeam, but UN is likely to join Star in a not-so-distant future.

At a later stage, LH may take a stake into TK, who knows.


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12394 times:
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Not too much of a surprise , though I admit I would rather see LH making strategic investments outside of Europe to broaden their reach . If they need to keep investing within Europe I would rather see them going for TP which is supposed to be coming up for privatisation .

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 18):
t a later stage, LH may take a stake into TK, who knows.

The way TK is going it may be the other way around with them taking a stake in the LH group eventually .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12332 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 18):
In Europe, I'd say LO and TP, then new OA , JK and perhaps VS.

SU is already commited in SkyTeam, but UN is likely to join Star in a not-so-distant future.

At a later stage, LH may take a stake into TK, who knows.

I think you failed to comprehend the historical parallel being discussed. Think WWII.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5420 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12270 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 20):

It's even more terrifying...they're doing it with the ultimate storm troopers...chartered accountants...



What the...?
User currently offlinenavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1207 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12228 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 7):
Would they keep SAS as a separate 'brand' and keep many of their routes as is? That seemes to be the trend so far with the recent mergers of majors in the Euro based airliners.

I suppose they will keep the brand like they did with Swiss. Anything else would be stupid since the SAS brand is well known and has a good reputation in the scandinavian market. Trying to introduce a foreign brand would be difficult and if LH would like to introduce their own brand they might as well exand on their own in Scandinavia without buying SAS I think.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12186 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
Not too much of a surprise , though I admit I would rather see LH making strategic investments outside of Europe to broaden their reach .

I think LH will in the end invest in non-European airlines, but it will take time, as the regulatory framework won't allow that too quickly. Until then, expanding the LH Group by acquiring EU carriers will certainly enhance the bargaining position of LH when eventually expanding out of Europe.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
The way TK is going it may be the other way around with them taking a stake in the LH group eventually .

Let's say a cross-shareholding LH-TP....


User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4479 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12172 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 17):
Very creepy. What's next LOT then Aeroflot?

Followed by Air France. They may try to take over BA, but I can't see it succeeding...

[Edited 2010-12-23 12:38:23]

25 LAXDESI : This is purely a conjecture, but i can see LH taking a small stake in Air India with seat(s) on the board. AI is planning to shift one third of its w
26 328JET : Lufthansa has a preference to buy airlines with a strange fleet philosophy... (AUA) SAS fits perfect to LH, but the fleet is going to be streamlined a
27 SR4ever : rather 343, 333, 332, 319, 736/73G/738 then 358, 333, 332, 319, 319/320/321-NEO
28 axelesgg : Hope they'll buy SGS (SAS Ground Services) then also so they could be more prepared for the snow, cold and ice... Pretty funny... Lufthansa has more i
29 windshear : Now is that arrogant A.net user who doubted these rumors...? Boaz.
30 bjorn14 : Fleet-wise I think EI would be a good match for LH but they maybe a basket case beyond hope.
31 Post contains images planemaker : They don't need to... they already have a toe hold in the UK with their 80% stake in bmi British Midland.
32 Byrdluvs747 : I wonder how long the EU will sit back and let LH expand before they realize the airline is just too entrenched in the european airline market. Consol
33 Post contains links Lightbug : The EU may have no choice but to accept it. Airline profitability is expected to take a significant dive in 2011, and the best option may simply be t
34 MIAspotter : Woo! I really hope they get their hands on JK and properly turn it around! The Catalan investors have not done really much to it, yes they changed th
35 OyKIE : Taking on TP would be a good movve. They have been very successful in resshaping the airline. If they buy SAS they will have 19,9% of the JK shares.
36 Post contains images SR4ever : Let's face it: expanding a group such as LH by acquiring other airlines implies costs at a first stage (acquisition and then re-organisation), but ai
37 SR4ever : If LH gets SK and LO shortly therafter, we can expect a massive order to Airbus, with a view to phasing out 717s, 735s, 734s, M82s, M83s and M87s of J
38 affirmative : I think Scandinavia will be littered with Embraers and CRJs if LH takes over. With moost of the domestic routes covered by E-jets and CRJs and intra
39 SR4ever : One of the SK diseases is its dispersed, fragmented fleet. I don't think LH would really go for that. To replace the 733s, 735s and M82s with 1 singl
40 affirmative : I agree entirely I can agree that using one type does have advantages. The big problem is that the thinner domestic routes can't support an aircraft
41 SR4ever : Wait and see. The 319 with 138 seats à la LX/OS/LH could be a good way of cutting down costs against LCCs. It will be either E-jets or CRJs, not bot
42 Viscount724 : LX was able to successfully renegotiate all their bilaterals after LH became majority owner. Why do you think governments would take a different posi
43 SR4ever : It wouldn't be too a big issue, but renogociating bileterals always may be a bit lenghty. I though LX had gone for a similar scheme as KL, which had
44 flyglobal : why nobody sees the C-series as a potential for the scandinavian routes. Lower sized then the A319. Also E-series I see as potential. For long haul ro
45 BrianDromey : I think this is a sensible move for SK. I'm not so sure the 737s will disappear from the SK fleet, to be replaced with A319/A321 (too large for SK's m
46 navigator : I very very much doubt your thoughts here. If they reduce SAS like this the whole idea of taking over is useless. The only way forward is to manage i
47 SR4ever : But goes against commonality and prudence. SK, given its current tricky situation, ought better to go for something proven and shared by other member
48 Northstar : whats your thoughts: Witch one will be the main hub for SK in the LH family?, will they reduce CPH and move more traffic to ARN?
49 Post contains images affirmative : Yeah, in theory it sounds good but the way the fleet looks right now I think it would a pretty stupid idea to add more 319s. Replace the 737 classics
50 Post contains images ZKCIF : As much as I love Lufty, they kill the variety in airports. If I ask myself where I can see an MD8-something in Europe, my first answer is Spanair and
51 Post contains images navigator : It is not a matter of moving traffic since CPH and ARN cater for different markets altogether. This is something SAS never understands. So it is more
52 BrianDromey : I say Boeing for a few reasons, the 737 (NG especially) is the largest fleet type, by far, at SK, so it makes sense that any fleet renewal would be b
53 shamrock604 : I think you have not been much attention to EI - it is back in profit, in the middle of Ireland's worst ever recession, and has 1 billion in cash to
54 Econojetter : There is enough O&D market in Denmark, south Sweden and north Germany to make CPH a worthwhile hub. Looking at LH group's track record, I'd say t
55 Flyingsottsman : I think you will find they will, they took over Swiss and Austrin and both those airlines are still flying under their own banners. I think it will b
56 affirmative : Depends on what you mean by hub. I don't see why there should be a reason to have intecont traffic from CPH if LH takes over. Of course CPH could sup
57 navigator : That remains to be seen. I doubt any continuation with too much feeding through CPH will be the future for SAS. That is really where the problem is n
58 Econojetter : That would be a very large redistribution of capacity, which is not necessary. Would the region in the vicinity of OSL generate more traffic than the
59 Post contains images SR4ever : 321s would be also relevant to LHR and CDG I believe. Debatable, in view of all those longhaul flights which other carriers than SK operate to Scandi
60 shamrock604 : Well, isnt every European flag carrier focused on its own geographical area with regard to short haul? LH still dont do very much outside of Germany,
61 Mortyman : SAS flies to 24 different countries in Europe, including Norway, Denmark and Sweden. In adittion to 5 countries on longhaul.[Edited 2011-01-03 16:12:
62 shamrock604 : Yes, all from Scandinavia, its geographical area.... AerLingus flies to 70 Destinations in Europe, of which only 13 are in the UK, 4 in Ireland and t
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