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The 787 Resumes Flight Tests Today! 12/23/2010  
User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 21481 times:

SOURCE: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...s-today-after-electrical-fire.html

Great to see this amazing bird back in the sky! Maybe this is why Boeing never announced the new delay. This is the Christmas surprise we were all waiting for!

Quick check of flightaware and yep, she is in the air!

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE4

[Edited 2010-12-23 14:26:56]

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 21416 times:

Great news indeed. Hope the rest of the certification program goes well.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12470 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 21272 times:

In case any one else was wondering what plane is flying, the article says:

Quote:

Today’s flight was scheduled to lift off from Paine Field in Everett, Washington, next to the factory where Boeing builds wide-body jets, and involve aircraft No. 4 in the test fleet. The Texas fire was on plane No. 2.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 21196 times:

Better news than staying grounded, but not closer to certification yet :

Quote:
The 787s will fly for the company’s purposes only, with efforts toward certification by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to be restarted later, Chicago-based Boeing said today in a statement.

About the delay, not announcing it doesn't mean there isn't one, it either means they don't know yet the extent of it, or they're waiting a good opportunity (planned shareholder call or whatever) to announce it.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 21179 times:
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By "company purposes" does it mean that whatever data may be collected during the flights will be ignored by the FAA? If the plane is fit to fly, why is it not fit to proceed with certification testing?


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinestitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21015 times:
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Quoting blueflyer (Reply 4):
By "company purposes" does it mean that whatever data may be collected during the flights will be ignored by the FAA?

What it means is that the flight is not specifically intended to obtain information used for certification. They were testing the RAT today, so I perhaps they're looking to perform some validation on software changes implemented in the wake of the fire on ZA002.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3621 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 20870 times:

Goes to show once again, you can't always believe everything you read on a blog.

User currently offlinemoderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 20758 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

A quick note from the Moderators in regards to this thread:

While some earlier threads on this were deleted as doubles to the flight test thread, after some discussion amongst the Moderators, the Moderators feel that this topic is newsworthy enough to warrant its' own discussion separate from the flight test thread that we have previously started and will keep a thread for said discussion. Please do not submit any further deletion suggestions on this thread.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 20642 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 4):
By "company purposes" does it mean that whatever data may be collected during the flights will be ignored by the FAA? If the plane is fit to fly, why is it not fit to proceed with certification testing?

The article talks about "interim software updates" so they may not be useful for certification at this stage. They're useful for Boeing to test some scenarios, and when it is mature enough, they'll show it to the FAA. Maybe the FAA has holidays, too ?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Goes to show once again, you can't always believe everything you read on a blog.

What are you talking about ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 20422 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
The article talks about "interim software updates" so they may not be useful for certification at this stage. They're useful for Boeing to test some scenarios, and when it is mature enough, they'll show it to the FAA. Maybe the FAA has holidays, too ?


Nothing really clear for sure on the process as far as the FAA is concerned, however the FAA is allowing the planes back in the air for testing but not certification. That is a good sign that Boeing feels they have addressed the issues and are testing them in actual use as well as the test stand.
As far as the FAA is concerned, most likely anyone with enough authority to approve continuation of certification flights has enough tenure that they would be using vacation days during the holidays and would not be available until after the first of the year.
Unless something unintended happens during testing then I would suspect certification flights to resume right after the first of the year.

Okie


User currently offlinesimpilot459 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 20197 times:

Watched it take off this afternoon. Found it interesting that they a high speed taxi before takeoff. I know this is standard procedure for new aircraft on first flights, but don't usually see it much on the flight test aircraft. I got a couple photos of her, but the weather wasn't very good.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simpilot459/5286593135/

Liz Matzelle got some from the other end:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imperfectsense/5286851564/

Hopefully they can get back to certification soon. I miss seeing them flying.



Take off: Optional Landing: Mandatory
User currently offlinegunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 20084 times:

Quoting simpilot459 (Reply 10):
Liz Matzelle got some from the other end:

It ended up at BFI around 4:00--I saw it on final from Pier 52 whilst waiting for the ferry. Did it end up at PAE on the way there or afterwards?



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlinesimpilot459 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 20051 times:

She has been at PAE for a few weeks. ZA001 is up here as well.


Take off: Optional Landing: Mandatory
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19608 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19928 times:

This is very good news for the 787 customers.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 19682 times:

Quoting simpilot459 (Reply 10):
Watched it take off this afternoon. Found it interesting that they a high speed taxi before takeoff. I know this is standard procedure for new aircraft on first flights, but don't usually see it much on the flight test aircraft. I got a couple photos of her, but the weather wasn't very good.

The 787 has electric brakes (that haven't been trouble free) so with mods to the electric system, it might be a good idea to test them. That is, if they actually braked.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinestitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 19472 times:
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Guy Norris and others are confirming that today's flight was to validate an interim software update for the power system. Boeing has evidently already performed the hardware fix so it appears that the electrical system design is fundamentally sound and will not need to be re-designed.

Additional flights will be needed until a final fix is confirmed and the FAA approves certification flight tests.

Boeing is also expected to announce the latest schedule update in mid-January,


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19316 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Better news than staying grounded, but not closer to certification yet :

That's not exactly true. A great deal of non-certification testing is prequisites to certification testing. More than half the flying in a typical test program is non-certification flying. It all has to be completed before you get type certification, so any time in the air is potentially advancing towards certification.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 4):
By "company purposes" does it mean that whatever data may be collected during the flights will be ignored by the FAA?

No, it just means the FAA isn't onboard. There are three basic types of flight testing:
1) Testing to figure out stuff that isn't related to certification (cabin noise, ride quality, fuel mileage, etc.)
2) Testing to verify & validate systems and performance prior to certification
3) Certification

The FAA cares about the data from everything, but they're only actually present (or their delegate) for certification testing, and that's the only one where they get to say "Yes, you passed" or "No, you didn't."

Saying it's company testing just means it's 1 or 2, but not 3.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 4):
If the plane is fit to fly, why is it not fit to proceed with certification testing?

Lots of potential reasons...most likely is that the FAA wants to see the results of the new power system before they put their people back on the planes. Also, certification testing requires a lot more paperwork than non-certification, so it may just be that Boeing chose easlier-to-accomplish testing to get the plane up in the air quicker to start building time on the new electrical system.

Tom.


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18545 times:

Oh my good,

what a lousy PR to start testflights again on christmas just to show that is goes ahead.


I wait for the next official delay, which will be announced shortly after years end.


Merry christmas to you all !!!


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18213 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 17):

I suspect they started now because that's when the plane was ready to fly. Boeing wants to minimize any delay as much as possible so the sooner they get the flight test program back in the air, the better it is for everyone.



What the...?
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14883 times:

Please stick to the topic, which is the resumption of the 787 flight test program. Comments regarding the holidays or working on the holidays is not germane to the topic.

User currently offlinedeltadart106 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14578 times:

Good news, hopefully there won't be any more delays after this  Silly

[Edited 2010-12-24 09:45:54]

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12449 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
It all has to be completed before you get type certification, so any time in the air is potentially advancing towards certification.

Except it has been reported that this testing is not advancing towards certification credit.

"Formal resumption of testing for certification credit, however, remains unclear and Boeing says there are "lots of possibilities in front of us regarding conversations on certification testing" as the restart of testing gets underway."


from http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...resume-final-schedule-unclear.html



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinestitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30922 posts, RR: 87
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12404 times:
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Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
Except it has been reported that this testing is not advancing towards certification credit.

True, but it does fit "2) Testing to verify & validate systems and performance prior to certification".


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12352 times:

Quoting stitch (Reply 22):

That would assume what was tested is actually what will be used for certification. I do not think Boeing/Hamilton Sundstrand are at that point yet. I think more mods will be developed, and they need further testing before the pre certification testing will begin.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3521 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12188 times:
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Quoting zeke (Reply 23):
I do not think Boeing/Hamilton Sundstrand are at that point yet.



what do you base this on? and how would the flights they are doing not come under testing and validation? One has to admit that some changes need more than lab testing to validate .. There is no reason to believe that any of this initial flight work is pre-certification work. ...


25 stitch : Boeing has already said as much. :yes: But still, it's not like Boeing is going to test something that has no relevance to addressing the issue, even
26 Post contains links Revelation : If anyone cares, we're carrying on about that over at Attitudes About Working On Christmas? (by Revelation Dec 25 2010 in Non Aviation)
27 zeke : The flight global link states that this was only testing of "interim software updates".
28 stitch : All Things 787 is noting that if the FAA signs off, certification testing could resume on January 3rd. I'n not sure if this means the FAA signs off on
29 JoeCanuck : At least the updates seem to be mature and reliable enough in ground testing for the FAA to allow the 787 to conduct flying tests.
30 stitch : While they are "corporate flights", does anybody know if Boeing is flying under the Experimental Certificate again, or are the flights conducted unde
31 Aesma : I was gonna talk about the experimental certificate too, because I read here, maybe from you stitch, that under that you can fly some pretty unsafe st
32 JoeCanuck : The FAA still has to issue an airworthiness certificate for even an experimental plane to fly so they must not be overly concerned about the overall
33 wolbo : So is Boeing back to flying the 787 on a daily basis or was it just the one flight for now?
34 fpetrutiu : Thus far, there was only on one flight, but the article and Boeing press release makes it seem that it is back to flight ops, althought only ZA004 is
35 Post contains links Revelation : ST: Boeing completes first 787 flight in six weeks says: which supports your assumption. I hope so, but ST: Dreamliner's woes pile up indicates there
36 tdscanuck : I think you're confusing two different things: Experimental Airworthiness Certificate and Type Inspection Authorization. The experimental certificate
37 JoeCanuck : Which the FAA takes into consideration before issuing an experimental certificate. Which is also why they restrict where the more riskier can be perf
38 328JET : It was just one flight. That underlines my argument (from reply 17) that it was just poor PR again to bring positive news to the B787 program.
39 kanban : how many times has a manufacturer done one flight to test something and then not flown for several days while they evaluated the results... plus part
40 tdscanuck : If they hadn't flown, wouldn't you be posting on how disappointing it was that they were still grounded? This really seems like a damned if you do, d
41 328JET : No, if they hadn´t flown, i would understand it very well. But making one flight only on christmas is so...useless.
42 keesje : I have not followed the 787 news this week, but did Boeing test (part of) a solution or a workaround to continue test flying?
43 stitch : Testing the fixes that will allow the entire flight test fleet to get back into the air is not my idea of "useless". *shrug*
44 Post contains links 328JET : For me the following article says a lot: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...resume-final-schedule-unclear.html That one flight is not worth to ta
45 JoeCanuck : That doesn't make very much sense, I'm afraid. However they were going to resume flights, it can only start as one flight. Did you really expect all
46 kanban : interesting how somebody half a world away who reads news pieces only is more of an expert at what is going on that people working with the a/c on a
47 ha763 : I see this is being the reason why Boeing did this test flight on the 23rd. Get the testing done, analyze and validate it, and get is ready for FAA r
48 winterapfel : Just wondering: how flexible can the FAA (for internal reasons like available resources) be in these things, how much reviewing capacity is actually
49 JoeCanuck : The FAA shut down flight testing after the fire so they obviously had concerns after the incident. They would require a bit more than Boeing's say so
50 AirNZ : But to be entirely fair, such was actually stated as being factual on here (by a staunch Beoing supporter)! But that comment would apply to more than
51 CharlieNoble : Concur. And if I were a customer waiting for one of these aircraft I'd be happy to see that Boeing was still working on the problem despite the holid
52 Revelation : And the flight wasn't even on christmas anyhow, it was two days before...
53 JoeCanuck : So...? I don't think the FAA is governed by a.net posters...Boeing, Airbus or UFO supporters included.
54 328JET : No, i am just getting angry about all that B787-delay as our own first 787 delivery should have been last month...
55 JoeCanuck : Everybody is upset with the 787 delays...but that doesn't mean that Boeing has an ulterior motive for everything it does. Sometimes, a test flight is
56 Post contains images CharlieNoble : More like 7/8. The other 1/8 are posts about what's wrong with the United States/TSA [Edited 2010-12-28 08:23:43]
57 stitch : If nothing else, it would not result in a slower review since Boeing would have material ready for the FAA when they were ready. Rumors still say the
58 Post contains links Revelation : According to http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...resume-final-schedule-unclear.html there will be more ground testing using the production version
59 Post contains images Hamlet69 : From the article YOU posted: "Boeing will restart its testing in two phases, first, flying company-required tests that remain to be completed and lat
60 billreid : Boeing obviously has built a step by step plan to move forward. Over simplifying the process in an opinionated blog serves no purpose. Drop the negat
61 keesje : I think "restarting" phase 1 isn't happening as phase 1 is part of the required fixing of a new problem. After that the scheduled flight testing can
62 Aesma : What do they mean by "production aircraft" ? That it has a complete interior and no specific test equipment ? Because, if they use it for testing, it
63 stitch : One of the aircraft that will be delivered to a customer. In this case, ZA109.
64 zeke : I would think most of the testing could be done on the ground, the main reason you would want to go to a flight test would be for the RAT to run. You
65 JoeCanuck : They specifically say they are testing the RAT. I don't think Boeing can say definitively that their fix is the final one without flight tests. They
66 tdscanuck : RAT backdrive tools do exist, but I haven't seen one for a long time. But it's almost impossible to fully simulate all the electric power loads witho
67 JoeCanuck : I imagine that they meant they dropped the RAT and tested how the electrical equipment handled the power sharing duties in a real time setting. Regard
68 nomadd22 : They might be simulatiing failures to whatever controls RAT deployment to make sure it goes when it should and doesn't when it shouldn't. Or, they mig
69 328JET : Yes, the sales of the 328JET were a pity. The ERJ135 as sole competitor sold better with 123 versus 83 aircrafts. But the 328JET and the B787 have tw
70 Post contains images Maersk737 : At this point in time, The 787 still has the potential to be a big money maker Something they don't have in common Cheers Peter
71 Post contains images 328JET : Yes, the POTENTIAL...
72 stitch : Fortunately the 787's "niche" is orders of magnitude larger than the Dornier 328's. And every new model and family is a loss maker for the OEM at fir
73 JoeCanuck : Another difference; one got hundreds of orders, the other, tens of orders.
74 tdscanuck : In the commercial realm: first digital FBW, first two-man flight deck, first composite primary structure. These were major technological risks at the
75 Post contains images 328JET : Which game exactly was changed by the B787? To be very honest, the B787 was a response to the A330 as Boeing had no competitive aircraft in its range
76 nomadd22 : Should this interim solution be enough to get the test program back in full swing? I'm guessing that the permanent solution will be software and panel
77 Post contains images keesje : The A320 was clearly a step ahead against the 737 in everything. The A330/340 are clearly larger then 767 and designed before the 777. A380 design ag
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