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Flying Cheap PBS Story On The Crash Of CO 3407  
User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3173 posts, RR: 12
Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20500 times:

PBS showed an interesting program about the crash of CO 3407, which is now available online.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/

Quote:
It throws a spotlight on airlines' outsourcing of flights to regional carriers -- and issues like pilot qualification, training and pay.

One interesting statistic was that 52% of flights are now flown by regional airlines.

Did anyone see the shot of Colgan A/C in New York Air Connection colours.


Why fly non stop when you can connect
98 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirFrance744 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20366 times:

This has been available online for 1 year and 3 months now. I did catch that shot of Colgan A/C in New York Air Connection colors. I loved the program. It really does shine a spotlight on what actually happens at the regionals. That is one of the few reasons that I try to fly mainline rather than regionals, not that I have anything against regionals, it is just that I like mainline more.


Flown over 115,000 miles and I'm only 19!
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3722 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20228 times:

I wonder how much of an impact, if any, this had on getting the new 1500 TT minimums for commercial airline pilots bill passed.

I saw this in February...it was an interesting expose to say the least.



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5959 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20095 times:

Quoting AirFrance744 (Reply 1):
I loved the program. It really does shine a spotlight on what actually happens at the regionals.

Not are regionals are this way; the big ones are FAR from what's depicted. This show's main purpose was to expose Colgan, but they threw everyone else under the bus as well.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20021 times:

It would also be worth investigating what level of experience and training pilots at major airlines had when they were hired. Airlines hire what's available based on need.

During times when the pilot pool was leaner the majors also had different standards than they now have.

I have met more than a few who were hired at AA, Northwest Orient and United who had little more than a wet private license when they were hired.

And as recently as the late 1990s the majors were hiring very low time pilots with very little real world experience.

The show is interesting, but hardly tells the whole story.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 19940 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
Not are regionals are this way; the big ones are FAR from what's depicted

Implying that the small ones are bad? Last I checked but SkyWest started out as a "not big one." If you want me to start naming safety violations by "big ones" I will start with SkyWest?


There is nothing unsafe about flying a "small" regional airline. Rasising the TT to 1500 hours will do little to improve experience. 1500 hours of teaching in Florida is hardly the same as 1500 hours teaching in western Colorado or the northeast. Along these lines, airlines should require 75-100 hours of IMC time, not hood time.

Clint
...for that matter, 90% of pilots dont have the ability to land a J3 Cub without causing harm to the airplane...what makes you think they can fly an RJ?



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5153 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 19346 times:

I'm curious as to how the proposed change in flying and duty time will change regional flying? I don't remember the specifics, but the amount of flying within a 24 hour period increases, while the amount of time that a pilot is on duty decreases.

User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18405 times:

Imagine if they did an in depth report of someone like Gulfstream International... yikes. They went after a few of the top ones and found disturbing info.

User currently offlinetozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18328 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
Not are regionals are this way; the big ones are FAR from what's depicted. This show's main purpose was to expose Colgan, but they threw everyone else under the bus as well.
Quoting atct (Reply 5):
Implying that the small ones are bad? Last I checked but SkyWest started out as a "not big one." If you want me to start naming safety violations by "big ones" I will start with SkyWest?


There is nothing unsafe about flying a "small" regional airline. Rasising the TT to 1500 hours will do little to improve experience.


That photo is what it looks like from an Skywest EMB-120 as you overfly your 3rd suitable airport after shutting a motor down, just so you can get back to your departure airport. The 1500 hour requirement won't fix everything, but it will make the barriers to entry for the job higher. It will make the talent pool that the airlines hire from more qualified, experienced, and safer. You make a lot of mistakes during that first 1500 hours. It's better to make those mistakes with 1 or 2 in the cockpit versus 50-100. From what I have seen during many trips on regional carriers is that there are some exceptionally qualified people who have been there a while and there are some incredibly immature, inexperienced people who came out of puppy mills like Gulfstream who have no business being anywhere near an airplane (like the kid who put his feet up, pulled out a book, and started reading while climbing through 5000' out of ORD). Something needs to be done, the 1500 hour requirement is a good start.

edit - re-post after editing issues



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5959 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18205 times:

Quoting atct (Reply 5):
Implying that the small ones are bad? Last I checked but SkyWest started out as a "not big one." If you want me to start naming safety violations by "big ones" I will start with SkyWest?

Don't take me out of context. The show picked on Colgan in particular; however, it was preached that every safety related issue taken by Colgan was de facto truth in the entire industry.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18058 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 9):
The 1500 hour requirement won't fix everything, but it will make the barriers to entry for the job higher.

As long as you got in before the minimums, who cares how expensive it will become now? So instead of getting people who really love flying, you will only get people who can afford it. And that doesn't always translate into higher skill levels either.

Ironically NONE of these accidents were low time pilots. They were fatigued pilots, and pilots without enough training. Nothing to do with any magical minimum number. The number is just used by current pilots to secure their jobs and pray for higher salaries since they will be "worth more" because of their higher time. It's ridiculous and does absolutely nothing for safety.

[Edited 2010-12-29 11:06:13]

User currently offlinetozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17778 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 11):
As long as you got in before the minimums, who cares how expensive it will become now? So instead of getting people who really love flying, you will only get people who can afford it. And that doesn't always translate into higher skill levels either.

I "got in" WAY above the 1500 hour minimum. While I was young, I had been flying for 7 years and had several thousand hours of time. I love flying, and I was willing to put in the time and work to get the experience necessary to be a competent commercial pilot. MANY of the pilots involved in the recent accidents came out of places like Gulfstream and never got the experience base that would have allowed them to be competent airline pilots. Combine that with the scheduling and fatigue issues present at all airlines right now and you have a recipe for disaster. I don't see how it can be about money as it won't affect my pay at all. Although I suppose my future earnings could be affected if I don't live through that next regional airline deadhead.



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8182 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16619 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 9):
You make a lot of mistakes during that first 1500 hours.

You also pay a ton of money to get to 1500 hrs. It's a ridiculous and arbitrary number. Airlines should concentrate on hiring and training skilled pilots- this is the issue here. 1500 hrs is a ridiculous gov't fix that will, in actuality, cripple the careers of many potentially excellent pilots simply because they can't afford to make it. Nobody wants to slave their way to 1500 hrs then make $19000 a year. It'd be one thing if cargo carriers, flight schools, charter companies, and the like were hiring and you could at least get paid to build time, but the jobs just aren't there! Nevermind the fact that there are plenty of god-awful pilots with 1500+ hrs...



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16416 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
Nobody wants to slave their way to 1500 hrs then make $19000 a year.

To play 'devil's advocate'... Then why is there a seemingly endless supply of those who are eager to do so?


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2965 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16306 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
You also pay a ton of money to get to 1500 hrs. It's a ridiculous and arbitrary number. Airlines should concentrate on hiring and training skilled pilots- this is the issue here. 1500 hrs is a ridiculous gov't fix that will, in actuality, cripple the careers of many potentially excellent pilots simply because they can't afford to make it


Training seems to be the issue here. We know there are EU operations putting people in the right seat with 200hrs total.
1,500 TT is not going gain much if you are not trained for the particulars of the aircraft you are flying.

The Colgan operation is not unique.
Trying to pay a penance for flight hours to substitute for training costs
or
Saving on training costs by substituting paying a penance for flight hours
Either way it is a no win situation the concept is a double negative.

Okie


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21421 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15457 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 15):
We know there are EU operations putting people in the right seat with 200hrs total.

And doing it safely. We also know that the US military puts pilots in charge of airplanes with far less than 1500 hours. So obviously it can be done safely. The difference is in training (and thus training costs). Many US regionals have shown themselves to be very unwilling to spend any extra money on training beyond what is absolutely necessary, and that should be what's most troubling. The argument could be made that tozairport's example of the E120 overflying several suitable airports with an engine out is an example of a failure of training on the airline's part more than a result of a lack of experienced crews.

Quoting tozairport (Reply 9):
the kid who put his feet up, pulled out a book, and started reading while climbing through 5000' out of ORD).

That's clearly a bad idea. Did the captain say anything about it? And if not, did you say anything about it, either to the FO directly or to the captain?

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
It'd be one thing if cargo carriers, flight schools, charter companies, and the like were hiring and you could at least get paid to build time, but the jobs just aren't there!

That's the problem of trying to figure this out now, at a time when there is next to no turnover in the industry because nobody has hit 65 yet. Once forced retirements do start to happen again, then those jobs might start opening up (if they're still there - not all of them will be). Then we can properly evaluate how something like this will affect future pilots and figure out whether the unintended consequences are too great or not. At least you can implement the work and rest rule changes now - that would be a good start.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinehughw From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14879 times:

Save the ammo if I get this wrong. I'm not an expert, far from it. But during StarAlliance MegadoTwo last month, I visited Lufthansa's Flight Training Center in Phoenix and this is what I recall from what we were told. Lufthansa trains all (or almost all) their own pilots which is unique in the industry. The total 2 year course costs about $100,000 which Lufthansa loans to the students and then deducts payback from their salary when the go to work for Lufthansa. And all graduates are guaranteed positions with Lufthansa.

Perhaps the most important part is the selection process which only 7-10% of applicants survive. After that the students spend 11 months in Bremen with theoretical training without ever stepping into a cockpit. Then they train in single engine Cessnas in Phoenix for 4 months before returning to Bremen and Munich for more advanced training totaling 2 years. By the time they graduate, the total hours are only about 330 hours, not including simulator time. But on graduation, Lufthansa considers them qualified for seats at second officers on mainline aircraft. Obviously, Lufthansa feels that if the training is the right kind, and more importantly, if the pilot has the right stuff, they are qualified to meet Lufthansa's stringent requirements. From what I saw in Phoenix, I would take one of Lufthansa's 330 hour gals or guys over a run-of-the-mill 1500 hour pilot from the likes of Gulfstream.


User currently offlinehz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14064 times:
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The cadet programs are ideal, but likely pricey to run. Cathay has one in South Australia, you can enter without any background in aviation. Over the course of 12 months they'll pump you full of what you need to know. A few of the Asian carriers also operate theirs in relatively sunny locations out here too.

If one of the US carriers had one, I think the waiting list would be as long, or longer, than Harvard to get in. I agree that there will be no shortage of people paying out of pocket building up 1500 hours, and willing to take US$19k / year, and a cadet program would expose this.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21421 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14051 times:

Quoting hughw (Reply 17):
Save the ammo if I get this wrong.

I think they use Pipers for training and not Cessnas, but other than that you're pretty much correct. Some of the members here who fly for EU airlines went though this program (or a similar one - it's not just LH that has them).

Quoting hughw (Reply 17):
From what I saw in Phoenix, I would take one of Lufthansa's 330 hour gals or guys over a run-of-the-mill 1500 hour pilot from the likes of Gulfstream.

That might be a little far - I'd certainly take a graduate of LH's program over a comparable 330 hour US pilot, but it's not like all low-time pilots in the US are idiots. You can bet that some of them would have easily gone through LH's program had they been able to apply for it, and you can also bet that they'd be very good pilots by 1500 hours.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13785 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
You also pay a ton of money to get to 1500 hrs. It's a ridiculous and arbitrary number. Airlines should concentrate on hiring and training skilled pilots- this is the issue here. 1500 hrs is a ridiculous gov't fix that will, in actuality, cripple the careers of many potentially excellent pilots simply because they can't afford to make it. Nobody wants to slave their way to 1500 hrs then make $19000 a year.

I'll take safety over cost any day of the week. Sure, 1500 is an arbitrary number. I think it should be more like 2500, but that's just me. There are lots of arbitrary numbers out there. 1500 is just as arbitrary as 250. Since the government seems unwilling to do anything about training standards, requiring more hours before you start flying families around seems like a good way for some of these pilots to get some actual experience to make up for their lack of training. The problem is that pilots coming out of these various academies and universities are rich in knowledge but lack the real world experience and decision making ability to be safe out on the line. Even flight instructing for a few years while you build time helps form your command ability and decision making, something you can't get in a classroom.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
That's clearly a bad idea. Did the captain say anything about it? And if not, did you say anything about it, either to the FO directly or to the captain?

I was on the jumpseat and the Captain was particularly weak. He didn't say anything. In fact he pretty much let the F/O run amok. My saying something wouldn't have changed anything. I just made sure I payed attention to what was going on a bit more.



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21421 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13566 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 20):
I was on the jumpseat and the Captain was particularly weak. He didn't say anything. In fact he pretty much let the F/O run amok. My saying something wouldn't have changed anything. I just made sure I payed attention to what was going on a bit more.

In other words, you had the opportunity to make a positive contribution to the safety of that crew (and perhaps other crews), and you didn't. I can understand the feeling that it wouldn't have made a difference, and you might be right about that, but I'm still not sure it's the best course of action.

I'm not saying to call them out in front of everyone, obviously - the situation definitely calls for Captain Tact (to borrow from Whose Line Is It Anyway). Were it me, I might have politely said something to the captain about it after the flight. If he takes it to heart, great. If he ignores it, not so great, but at least I tried.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13445 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 20):
I'll take safety over cost any day of the week. Sure, 1500 is an arbitrary number. I think it should be more like 2500, but that's just me.

So instead of a young FO learning from experienced pilots while sitting in the right seat or as relief officers on long haul, you want them teaching themselves bad habits and tricks that they then go into their first commercial job with 2500 hours, and the arrogance to make tons of mistakes from those bad habits they picked up along the way.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19275 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13042 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 9):

That photo is what it looks like from an Skywest EMB-120 as you overfly your 3rd suitable airport after shutting a motor down

Except you aren't overflying an airport. You're overflying ocean about 3-5 miles out from shore. (Farther than most pax can swim, anyway).

That's even scarier.

To put this in perspective: I had to accumulate about 7,200 hours as a pediatric resident in order to be Board-Certified as a pediatrician. That takes three years.

1,500 should be doable in a bit over a year (given that pilots don't have the same insane work-hour rules that residents do). Given that these folks will have anywhere from 30 to 600 lives in their hands with each flight, I don't think that's too unreasonable.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8182 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12941 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
Then why is there a seemingly endless supply of those who are eager to do so?

There's quite the supply now, that's for sure, but you won't see many self-made pilots trying to fly for the airlines if this 1500 hr. law kicks in. What you will have is more college-trained kids, kids who learned to fly in a Cirrus with a parachute and a glass cockpit, kids who spent most of their 1500 hrs in a classroom in Florida. Give me a stick and rudder pilot any day.

Quoting tozairport (Reply 20):
he problem is that pilots coming out of these various academies and universities are rich in knowledge but lack the real world experience and decision making ability to be safe out on the line.

I couldn't agree more! And the fact is that they won't be subject to the 1500 hr. requirement the same way pilots in part 61 schools will be! Most of their classroom time will in fact count towards the 1500 hours. Fair? I don't think so.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22678 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13192 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 12):
MANY of the pilots involved in the recent accidents came out of places like Gulfstream and never got the experience base that would have allowed them to be competent airline pilots.

And many didn't. How many hours did the AA587 pilots have between them?

An hours requirement won't fix poor training (AA587), poor airmanship (OH191), fatigue (9L3407), or stupid (9E3701).

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The difference is in training (and thus training costs). Many US regionals have shown themselves to be very unwilling to spend any extra money on training beyond what is absolutely necessary, and that should be what's most troubling.

Isn't the more sensible answer, then, a training requirement rather than an hours requirement?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 N766UA : If you fly three times a week, a pretty average number for someone getting their ratings and building their time, you're talking maybe 7 or 8 hours o
26 N766UA : But... congress said it would!
27 Flighty : This really isn't about Total Time (of which the pilot-in-command for Colgan had tons). This is about adequate check-ride procedures and consequences.
28 Flighty : If you're equating a board certified physician to a regional first officer (which is the apprenticeship of the airline business), I believe you're no
29 tozairport : Sometimes you have to know your place. I was on the jumpseat at the discretion of the other Captain. The politics of the jumpseat are such that if I
30 TVNWZ : Or stupid, but not tragic, still..NW 188. Or the most tragic of all: PA 1736//KL4805. And wasn't the main culprit in that the Chief Pilot of KLM? So
31 DashTrash : If all regionals aren't the same, they're damn similar. Low time guys, lots of legs, long duty days, CDO's, punitive sick policies, fatigue calls cos
32 Mir : Not an issue. You could glide that distance if your other engine failed. Obviously, you don't want to do extended overwater stuff on one engine, but
33 413X3 : You make a pretty big assumption, that a pilot with 2-3 years experience will freeze, and then pretend that pilots with thousands more hours would ne
34 Post contains images DeltaRules : The thing that screams at me in the Colgan crash, which seemed to lead to the knee jerk 1500 hour bill is the high number of hours both pilots had, b
35 Maverick623 : Someone didn't read the NTSB reports. You wanna know what Skiles did? He ran through the engine dual failure checklist the whole way down. And that c
36 tozairport : Glide to where? at most points on our ride down once we had bypassed CCR and OAK, if the other engine failed we would have been swimming. I am an air
37 DashTrash : No assumption. I've seen low time guys have red lights start coming on in the cockpit. Any pilot can produce an incorrect response in any given situa
38 413X3 : I believe the captain, with almost 3400 hours was in command, the FO with 2200 hours retracted flaps in a dangerous stall situation.
39 413X3 : So in the end, you don't really mean low time, you just mean low proper training. Something any pilot with any hours can have. Which leads the 1500tt
40 413X3 : That sounds like a horrible decision. But what does that have to do with low time pilots?
41 DashTrash : Agreed. Not defending his actions, I'd have put it down at OAK, or SJC, or whatever airport I was on top of. I'd have also been called on the carpet
42 DashTrash : I mean low experience. In the grand scheme of things, a lot of military guys are "low time". It's a subjective term. You certainly can't call them in
43 j0rdan : Sorry i'm missing something but what incident does and refer to? And also, does anybody know what would have happened to the F/O who brought up the we
44 Goldenshield : I'm not going to second guess a crew; I wasn't there. Nor am I going to argue that what Toz saw was anything but the truth. I respect that he broke s
45 Kaiarahi : Try Reply 9.
46 Post contains links hughw : Yes, I think you're right, It's Pipers, And it's pretty weird to see that Lufthansa tail insignia on 23 or 24 little aircraft in the middle of the Ar
47 Grid : Congress is just a reflection of America, right? The voice of the people?
48 Cubsrule : Not sure I agree - how does a 1500TT minimum solve a cowboy problem? How does it solve generally poor airmanship (using the incorrect runway)? How do
49 DeltaRules : Do what now? As others have said, there's no way that 1,500 is doable in just over a year. I have a friend who went from his first lesson to CFI at a
50 tozairport : When you pair an incompetent captain with an inexperienced co-pilot, that is what you get. The passengers did save $5 on your airfare though... I nev
51 Cubsrule : And which crash(es) would that have prevented?
52 tozairport : CO 3407 for one. "The crew of four was led by Captain Marvin Renslow, age 47, of Lutz, Florida, who was hired by Colgan in 2005 and had flown 3,379 ho
53 413X3 : So then you are basically admitting here that Gulfstream is a bad place to learn how to fly, regardless of how many hours you may or may not have. You
54 DeltaRules : How in at least 1879 hours of flight between hire and the accident could Renslow have not gained any experience? Shaw didn't learn a thing or two in
55 saab2000 : I have met United and some NWA and Delta pilots who are in their mid-30s who told me they have been with their respective carriers without a furlough
56 tozairport : I believe that experience is a progressive thing. You don't go for a jog around the block and then the next day go run a marathon. The problem with a
57 Revelation : I was suprised the show didn't shine a much brighter a light on the training industry that helped the pilot get his seat at Colgan. I also wonder if m
58 413X3 : Will you please stop resorting to melodramatic nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic? Like bringing up your engine out situation, and now th
59 tozairport : Yeah, how did that work out for the passengers of CO 3407? Yes, I know Shaw had more than 250 hours, but this crashed showed that you can't have a we
60 saab2000 : What was your experience level when you got your first job flying 'mainline style' equipment? Curious. It's not flamebait, so don't treat it is such.
61 Post contains images DashTrash : Yes, it is. It's got a much higher potential for disaster than an experienced F/O with any captain. The airplane was stalled when she raised the flap
62 okie : My guess is the FO lowered the flaps causing "stick shaker" then thinking she did something wrong raised them, if we are guessing but my guess is jus
63 cbphoto : Mark my words guys, 1500TT WILL NOT make the regional industry any safer. It is all about the culture that plagues this regional market. The long days
64 Kaiarahi : Have you read the NTSB report? Just to start with: checklists not done at appropriate times (cruise, icing, descent, approach); call-outs not made; l
65 DashTrash : In the -100 / -200 / -300 it takes about 45 seconds to bring the flaps from 15 to 0. If it's the same way on the 400, that didn't do anything to hurt
66 Kaiarahi : The NTSB report did better than speculate. Inexperience (almost no experience in icing) and incompetence (inability to distinguish between a tail sta
67 cbphoto : Inexperience in icing should not have lead to the crash though. The Captain was flying and even then the aircraft was on autopilot. As far as the inc
68 Cubsrule : It wouldn't necessarily, but that isn't the point. Would requiring 20,000 hours make commercial aviation LESS safe? Of course not, but that doesn't m
69 modesto2 : As a former regional FO, I support the proposed 1500 hour requirement. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that it won't solve all the problems, but it's cer
70 413X3 : Sounds like the mistakes of a fatigued pilot, I'm glad this 1500tt also addresses duty hours and commuting... oh wait. All it does is give more money
71 mcg : Speaking as nothing more than a passenger: First, I end up flying Skywest (under the umbrella of multiple mainline airlines) a lot and find they are a
72 Cubsrule : But that's the whole point, isn't it? Pilots are never equally skilled, so what's the point of an hours requirement? The point is that it should be s
73 DocLightning : How much I made is not a fair question since I did my residency in NYC. My pay was unusually high to make up for cost of living. Typical for a reside
74 n800nn : it teles the story of wht biend it thanks for telling us sir
75 tozairport : The 1500 hour requirement is about gaining experience more so that gaining skill. You don't get that experience by 250 hours. I don't think you reall
76 9LFlyGuy : As for this picture, overflying some of the suitable airports may have not been the pilots call. I'm sure the crew was in constant contact with dispa
77 DashTrash : The captain always has the final say unless he allows someone else to make the decision for him. I have no doubt he called the company and his dispat
78 tozairport : I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but once an emergency happens (and single engine in a 2 engine airplane is an emergency) then my last thought is pas
79 9LFlyGuy : I understand that it's an emergency but as I stated, we were not in the flight deck.We do not know all of the circumstances which required the crew t
80 tozairport : No. It was a SFO-SMF flight. We overflew OAK twice. I think OAK is well equipped to handle a Brazillia. Not even in the realm of reality as to how th
81 Kaiarahi : I suppose you're also going to tell me that his history of poor/failed stall recovery and poor instrument flight during training / check rides were d
82 saab2000 : That does suck indeed. NetJets is a quality operation and I'd love to work there. It doesn't really align with my career goals but I carry NetJets fo
83 Cubsrule : Right, so the question is where we draw that line. For me, the only sensible place to draw it is the point below which it's impossible to be a compet
84 Grid : What about representing a defendant against death-eligible crime? Do you need a certain number of years of experience or at least need to work with a
85 Cubsrule : Not licensing-wise. There's an ethical obligation to represent the client "competently," but that's not tied to experience - although, as here, more
86 Post contains images apodino : I have seen countless times in my company where we get an issue and the QRH says land at nearest suitable, and if they are anywhere near a mx base we
87 saab2000 : Most people here would be stunned if they knew how little experience exists in the right seat of 744s all over the world. A very good friend of mine
88 DashTrash : Problem is the "land at nearest suitable" is in black and white and can't be "bent". It will be the crew's ass hung out to the FAA along with the dis
89 apodino : The one thing though is what constitutes a suitable airport. This is the question that really has no exact answer.
90 tozairport : I suppose you could say that if a doctor make a fatal mistake due to lack of training and experience than only one person dies and the doctor lives a
91 Cubsrule : One thing that's different is with pilots, you can fly packages or flowers or fish or whatever other kind of cargo around and not endanger lives (or
92 Post contains images saab2000 : Not even close. I learned how to fly in Europe in a program similar to what LH would operate and I can assure anyone who cares that it is not an easy
93 Post contains images DashTrash : You're giving them way too much credit. They are just the largest.
94 saab2000 : Let me say this about that... I've flown with excellent pilots who didn't go to either of those programs. But I cannot remember flying with someone w
95 Flighty : That sounds dangerous, but "lots of legs" gives the pilots a high amount of experience as they move up the regional chain. The upper half of the RJ s
96 saab2000 : Sounds about right. But not if you read the opinions of some folks here who think we're all just dressed up as wannabe airline pilots. I have no prob
97 413X3 : The problem is those Universities are so expensive, now you will not only have to start paying back the loans, but find any place to let you CFI for p
98 futureualpilot : Something tells me you haven't flown a 7 or 8 leg, 15 or 16hr duty day. Or getting extended into your days off with min rest on your overnight. Its a
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