klmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 794 posts, RR: 24 Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7030 times:
It has been a while now since EK added AMS to it's network and I was wondering how they are doing on this route.
How much is EK hurting KL since it's presence at AMS.
Or is the AMS-DXB market growing fast enough that they hardly even notice eachother on this route.
I believe that at some point in the not to distant past KL had 14weekly 777 service to DXB, but has now
downgraded to 332, and frequency became 12weekly (is that correct?). Is that a direct consequence of EK's presence?
What does EK send to AMS these days? More 77L's or 773ER's ? Is the A380 a possibility for AMS?
peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1310 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6199 times:
Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter): Or is the AMS-DXB market growing fast enough that they hardly even notice eachother on this route.
I'm sure it's mostly about connecting traffic (at DXB) for EK though.
KL may have to downgrade at some point due to a loss in some O&D traffic, I don't expect it to be much though. KL itself has a lot of connecting traffic at AMS to DXB. SkyTeam traffic won't be affected too much.
Now, if KL/AF/AZ/DL service DXB from the west and MH/GA/VN/CZ service DXB from the east, we could have some healthy cooperation between SkyTeam and future SkyTeam members and some needed competition with EK. Of course, part of such a scenario depends on government regulations.
Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4117 posts, RR: 37 Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6007 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2): Down-time rotation or totally plane wasting? 77L on a 5 hour flight ? Doesn't EK have lighter planes to use (say 772A or 773A) ?
Someone posted here a detailed analysis of EK's fleet use a few months ago. It explained how actually it's very smart to use the 77L on AMS, as it fits perfectly between two ULH flights which depart after midnight and arrive back in the early morning, so they can squeeze the max use out of every frame in their fleet.
Also the typical EK flight is about 5 or 6 hours long, but still they use 77Ws on many of them, probably it makes more sense regarding flexibility then having a dedicated mid haul fleet, say 321s or 333-300s.
About EK in Amsterdam, I flew on them AMS-DXB-PEK r/t in september and almost everyone connected to something outside Dubai, while KLMs pax usually have DXB as end destination, but they come from all over Europe and the US and connect in Amsterdam. EK in Amsterdam often has attractive pricing for 1-stops to anywhere in Africa, Asia and Australia but that business model seems to work for them as we can see elsewhere, all their flights were full.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5549 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1): Current schedule is 6 77Ls and 1 77W (on Tuesday).
Can't be taken as a 'rule'. EK sends a mix of 77L/77W, some weeks AMS sees more 77W, another week more 77L. I think it depends on the loads, which I heard are very good!
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2): Down-time rotation or totally plane wasting? 77L on a 5 hour flight ?
AMS-DXB is closer to 7 hours...
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2): Doesn't EK have lighter planes to use (say 772A or 773A) ?
I think the 'product' onboard 77W and 77L is more suitable for these AMS-DXB flights then on their older 777 fleet
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5348 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Current schedule is 6 77Ls and 1 77W (on Tuesday).
Down-time rotation or totally plane wasting? 77L on a 5 hour flight ? Doesn't EK have lighter planes to use (say 772A or 773A) ?
EK has often done things like that. When they started their DXB-HAM-JFK service (HAM-JFK sector later dropped) they used the equally long-range A340-500 before switching to the 777-300ER. If memory correct EK also used the A340-500 for some time DXB-ZRH since at that time it had their best premium class product.
PEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 692 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5184 times:
I fly this route pretty regularly and here is my take on the AMS route:
- EK flights are almost always totally full, yields must be high as the tickets out of AMS are always flex fares, no saver fares ever.
- I flew the 77L 80% of times.
- No matter if you fly 77L or the 77W it is always the ICE digital product that is being sent to AMS, I think they do this to be competitive.
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5): Someone posted here a detailed analysis of EK's fleet use a few months ago. It explained how actually it's very smart to use the 77L on AMS, as it fits perfectly between two ULH flights which depart after midnight and arrive back in the early morning, so they can squeeze the max use out of every frame in their fleet.
That is true, plus the above mentioned need for the best product to be sent to AMS even on days when only a 772 size plane is enough.
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5): About EK in Amsterdam, I flew on them AMS-DXB-PEK r/t in september and almost everyone connected to something outside Dubai
Well basically O&D traffic is very few compared to connecting traffic...Terminal 3 Arrival/Departure hall is basically a ghost town all day and night. It pretty well represents EK's business plan in action.
This is a good question, as I think EK has 2 slots to AMS and one is being utilized by SkyCargo, so they are stuck with 1 daily slots. If this remains and traffic develops, I can very easily see an A380 to AMS sooner or later. However without a second daily (the late evening departure) flight it might not make it easy for EK to increase the number of reasonable connections out of DXB, so maybe traffic will not expand so fast beyond a daily 77W.
BasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1254 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4105 times:
Quoting airbuseric (Reply 6): Can't be taken as a 'rule'. EK sends a mix of 77L/77W, some weeks AMS sees more 77W, another week more 77L.
EK is indeed quite flexible with switching to an 77W when necessary but the official schedule is still as Viscount724 said, 6x weekly 77L and 1x weekly 77W on Tuesday. By the way, from June 1st AMS will be daily served by a 77W. The 77L will move to GVA which will see the same schedule as AMS currently has, 6x 77L and 1x 77W.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
Glareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1284 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2505 times:
Quoting PEET7G (Reply 8): EK has 2 slots to AMS and one is being utilized by SkyCargo, so they are stuck with 1 daily slots. If this remains and traffic develops, I can very easily see an A380 to AMS sooner or later
That would be fantastic! Keep on going Emirates!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
Sponsor Message: 
From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 794 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 415 posts, 
From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 692 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
