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Rumour Of DL Mainline Taking Over SEA-CDG  
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7408 posts, RR: 50
Posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14646 times:
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We're hearing rumours amongst our IFS dept that DL will be flying SEA-CDG. Since I haven't seen anything on here about it, I cast this as skeptical, as most of the rumours among FAs are dubious at best. Anyone have any definitive answers?

[Edited 2011-01-04 14:44:20]


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37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

Not too far fetched. DL/AF/KL have a TATL JV, and this would enable simplified routing NRT-SEA-CDG-ATL etc.

User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1720 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14219 times:
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With the JV the revenues are shared among the members. There are times in the past where KL swapped out with NW and more recently DL and vice versa based on operational requirements at the respected carrier. It may make more operational sense for Delta routing its 76ER's from AMS and CDG through SEA and onto KIX and China. Similar to what NW did with the 333's that would undergo maintenance in SEA in between runs to either continent.

Speaking from a purely marketing standpoint, if Delta is determined to build Seattle into it's Pacific gateway and, to a lesser extent, a International gateway - it makes far more sense for a Delta plane to be doing Paris versus Air France. Yes, Delta can sell the AF flight and market it, but it's not Delta at the end of the day.


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

that sucks! AF has 2 free checked baggage to India from US, and also has free drinks on board. the food choices are better than what DL provides. I hope AF continues to fly the SEA-CDG route

User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 13983 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
and onto KIX

is going 333.



yep.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3067 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13683 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 3):
I hope AF continues to fly the SEA-CDG route

Yeah, I flew that once and it was great (and AF game me a business class upgrade on CDG-JNB when they found out I work for a certain aerospace company - I couldn't image a domestic airline like AA or DL doing that, or even giving a $#%&amp Wink. Needless to say I was impressed with AF.

However, DL might be nice for many of us Seattlites who have our frequent flier miles with AS. The AS frequent flier partnership with AF is very restrictive. You only get miles and elite qualifying points (EQP) when you purchase a higher coach fare, not the ones usually shown on the internet. So if I flew on AF's metal, I'd have to buy a more expensive coach ticket or get no miles and no EQP at all. AS's web site lists those many classes of coach ticket on AF that earn no mileage at all. At best you have to call AF's reservation number and request a higher coach ticket if you want to earn your AS miles.

There are no such restrictions with DL. Say I purchase a DL operated flight ticket for SEA-CDG on their web site, and I get full miles and EQP and don't have worry about which coach booking code it is.


User currently offlineseamefly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13405 times:

like always, I believe it when I see it, JJ !

User currently offlineIcelandairMSP From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12618 times:

Of all the rumors that float around a.net this seems among the most plausible. It fits with DL's grander intentions to augment its int'l presence in SEA and could put in place another pair of aircraft to allow another destination in Asia. PVG? ICN? TPE? It seems likely we'll see another Asian destination in the next two years if DL is serious and this would help their overall position in SEA. Until there is a pulldown of international flights by DL in SEA, I'm less skeptical of changes or additions like this. That said, I'm curious if there is any strong evidence against such a move.

User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12364 times:

Well, they did it in PHL last year, so why not? In time, I expect to see more and more of this type of thing within SkyTeam as the relationships solidify. As time goes on and I am sure, other alliances will follow too. Through these cooperations, the respective airlines (in this case AF & DL) determine what is the more cost effective way to do the operation. If it is cheaper to use a DL a/c, then that is what they will chose and vive versa. If a foreign carrier operating to given destination only serves the city with one flight per day (or less than daily), the cost t do business in that city may justify switching to an alliance carrier.

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12352 times:

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 7):
PVG? ICN? TPE?

KE already has ICN covered.

DL would face competition from EVA Air to TPE, but with CI joining SkyTeam, I suppose it's possible.

PVG is wide open for now, and could be a good route since China Eastern and Shanghai Airlines are joining SkyTeam.

Also, I think it would be cool to see DL fly to FUK again, although I don't suppose there is enough high-yielding O&D to make that viable. Maybe not enough O&D period, although there is no other service from FUK to the US.

All that said, I feel like DL doesn't have enough (if any) spare international aircraft to add more Asia routes without cutting something else.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12049 times:

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 7):
Of all the rumors that float around a.net this seems among the most plausible. It fits with DL's grander intentions to augment its int'l presence in SEA and could put in place another pair of aircraft to allow another destination in Asia. PVG? ICN? TPE? It seems likely we'll see another Asian destination in the next two years if DL is serious and this would help their overall position in SEA.

Asia is HKG and PVG. TPE will be flown (again) by China Air. The other route using a 767 will be LHR. Just a prediction.


User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11963 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 9):

KE already has ICN covered.

Does OZ also do SEA-ICN?



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11878 times:

Quoting malaysia (Reply 11):
Does OZ also do SEA-ICN?

Simple answer....Yes.


User currently offlinecoopdogyo From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11877 times:

Quoting malaysia (Reply 11):
Does OZ also do SEA-ICN?

Yes they do


User currently offlinebgm From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11821 times:

"DL mainline"? Glad it's not Connection serving that route!   

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1841 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11554 times:

I really hope this is not true ! DL service in Y is far from being good.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
it makes far more sense for a Delta plane to be doing Paris versus Air France.

I don't really see why it makes more sense one way or another (AF or DL). At the end, it's the JV AF/DL who's serving the route.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 8):
Well, they did it in PHL last year, so why not?

yes why not. But for PHL, the main idea was that the 757 was better adapted in term of size, especially during the winter season and AF don't have such 757.


User currently offlinedc-9-10 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 584 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11506 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 15):
I don't really see why it makes more sense one way or another (AF or DL). At the end, it's the JV AF/DL who's serving the route.

But it does, DL may be able to offer a better sized aircraft that will maximize revenues for that aircraft while AF can deploy the airplane on a route that is more suited for its size, cabin layout, range, cargo capacity, etc. This allows AF/DL/KL to make more money with the assets they already have.


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7408 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11472 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
Speaking from a purely marketing standpoint, if Delta is determined to build Seattle into it's Pacific gateway and, to a lesser extent, a International gateway - it makes far more sense for a Delta plane to be doing Paris versus Air France. Yes, Delta can sell the AF flight and market it, but it's not Delta at the end of the day.

Which we're now in an increased partnership with AS, it would make more sense. When we were NW, we relied only on codeshares rather than use our metal with exception of NRT and AMS.

Quoting seamefly (Reply 6):
like always, I believe it when I see it, JJ !

Like always, that is the truth

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 7):
Of all the rumors that float around a.net this seems among the most plausible. It fits with DL's grander intentions to augment its int'l presence in SEA and could put in place another pair of aircraft to allow another destination in Asia.

Well, we keep hearing of greater expansion out of SEA. I think with DL's greater advertising budget that the old NW, I believe there is great potential to make SEA the preferred gateway to the west for DL. What would DL have over AF having the route. Would we trade AF for this route?



Made from jets!
User currently offlinebaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11107 times:

OK, time to add my two cents...

Emotionally, it would kill me to see AF leave Seattle. I flew them ex SFO on the 744 to CDG and on to BCN, returning on the nonstop CDG-SEA and it was a GREAT flight (all flights J class). They have a superior J class product to Delta on most aircraft and their Y class on the A332 is actually comfortable, with reasonable service and excellent food, especially ex Paris.

Practically, however, a move to a DL operation for SEA-CDG might make sense. The 763 (with the upgraded IFE) would be fine in Y class; however, their 763 J product is behind the curve. If they get the 763ERs upgraded with the 764 J class interior, then they have something that the other carriers in this market won't have (except BA) - a flat bed in J class and seven across is better than eight any day (yes, I like the 763 very much).

There are a couple of leverage points: One is operational, the other is purely marketing.

Operationally, Delta took over all of NW's operation at SEA which was quite sizeable. The maintenance base here, combined with their very large facility in LAX gives them two places on the west coast in which they can cycle aircraft through for maintenance. To have the ability to cycle aircraft from Paris through Seattle and on to Asia would save Delta a ton of money; however, this has to be balanced with the fact that they get a pretty healthy percentage of revenue that AF gets from operating the flight. I don't know the numbers, but assuming for the moment that the revenue split would be a push, then it comes down to the cost of operating the flight vs. the cost savings of cycling the aircraft through Paris back to Seattle for maintenance. Since Delta has gone to 763ERs on PEK and OSA (only NRT has the A333), to Europe, DL operates the A332/A333 (based on load and aircraft cycling) to AMS, unless they switch everything out to one or the other type on Seattle OR has the capability to do heavy maintenance on both types here (don't know that either), I can't see the cost savings of cycling the aircraft CDG-SEA for maintenance to offset the cost of operating the flight.

The marketing compenent has two drivers:

1) If DL is going to increase their presence here (SEA) effectively, they need to do two things: a) grow Asia and b) grow Europe. This means putting on a SEA-HKG service. The A332 could make it eastbound, no sweat. Westbound? Not totally sure. 763, no way. The only way this could make any sense is if DL started up SEA-HKG and SEA-LHR and operated them both with 777 with refitted J class interiors. The ER version could make HKG from here both directions and would be an appropriate choice for LHR as well, but ONLY with a flat bed solution for both markets...not with its existing J product on the ER aircraft.

2) Alaska Airlines. AS owns the Pacific Northwest, period full stop. If you are going to compete effectively in this market, you must have a relationship with AS and DL has an excellent relationship with AS. Unfortunately, AS also has a relationship with AA/BA and this one hurts Delta if they opt to operate SEA-LHR, as BA would have issues with AS feeding DL over Seattle. I don't see Alaska giving up its relationship with AA/BA anytime soon, since while AA doesn't have a huge presence in Seattle, they do in California and AS needs AA in California to shore up their competitive situation against Southwest in the north/south corridor.

This is one of those times in which I really don't have a good answer. Yes, it would be helpful to Delta to have SEA-CDG, but frankly, it would need to be part of a much larger strategy for Seattle. Delta would need to make SEA a fortress hub on the west coast and build up its presence at Portland as well and place AS in a position in which it would benefit more from their feed than from AAs before taking on the notion of pushing AF out of the market just to do maintenance here. I'm not saying that cycling aircraft through Seattle is a bad idea...far from it. I believe Delta is better served by building an alliance fortress here, using KE, AF and its other partners, including AS to solidify its position. If it wants to cycle aircraft through Seattle, they can do so without running them through CDG, since AMS has a much larger DL operation than Paris.

To conclude an extremely long winded post, DL should not consider pushing AF off SEA-CDG solely on the premise of aircraft maintenance cost savings. They have to think more alliance centric (a la Star Alliance) and leverage their partnerships to get the cost savings and incremental revenue they require.

I don't see SEA-CDG on Delta metal accomplishing this in the short run, but then again, my crystal ball is as murky as the next guy's...

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 4):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
and onto KIX

is going 333.

If this is true, then could it be possible that the SEA - CDG route is going 333? So far everyone has simply assumed that it would change to a 763ER. AF does have similarly-sized 343s, but the whole aircraft routing thing could come into play. Just a thought...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineML86 From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8601 times:

Quoting bgm (Reply 14):

"DL mainline"? Glad it's not Connection serving that route!   

Sure, it's DL mainline. Route will be operated with a DC95 on the routing: SEA-YWG-YQB-YQX-GOH-REK-SNN-CDG
Good thing they have 16 F seats...


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7431 times:

I am a proponent of it happening if DL will have daily SEA-CDG service. During certain parts of the day, the South Satellite at SEA is hugely overpacked with DL passengers. With UA/CO cutting service by 6% in SEA, it is obvious which legacy is dedicated to SEA.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1914 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Wow, if this rumor comes to fruition, Delta will have built a truly impressive repertoire of international service at SEA. I'm glad to see DL really taking advantage of the under-served international market from SEA as well as their code share with AS.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 9):

All that said, I feel like DL doesn't have enough (if any) spare international aircraft to add more Asia routes without cutting something else.

They could pull it from the SLC-NRT route if DL sees the opportunity cost of trying to make that route work greater than the benefit of opening a new Asian route from SEA.


User currently offlineN593HA From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7193 times:

Quoting ML86 (Reply 20):
Sure, it's DL mainline. Route will be operated with a DC95 on the routing: SEA-YWG-YQB-YQX-GOH-REK-SNN-CDG

And who would be willing to fly this long way to Paris apart from some crazy a.neters(!)? 
The average passenger would probably find flying via LHR a pleasant alternative compared to this odyssey!   

Quoting FSDan (Reply 19):
If this is true, then could it be possible that the SEA - CDG route is going 333? So far everyone has simply assumed that it would change to a 763ER.

IF DL should take over I expect the route to be served by either 763ER, 332 or 333. I do not see DL using a 77E.
And the rotation would be combined with some other long-haul destinations out of SEA.



Next trip: KL+NW to HNL
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1720 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7020 times:
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Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 4):
is going 333.

Only for the summer. But, with Delta, that could change...at least a few times.
 


25 n7371f : A lot of questions if a 333 could make it SEA-CDG-SEA in the winter without significant weight penalties. The 332, more doable.
26 peanuts : Thanks for posting, you bring up some interesting points. I don't want this to start into another "AS merger" conspiracy thread but if any rumors abo
27 jetjack74 : How much further is it to CDG than AMS. We operate the A333 there daily without any real restrictions, AFAICT. We might take a hit on cargo, but I ca
28 alitalia744 : There will be continuous shifting of NATL ops between JV carriers.
29 FSDan : I think we're basically talking about summer here. I could see DL taking over from AF for the summer only, using the 333 as an upgauge over the typic
30 deltal1011man : Nothing past the summer is set at this point. but it could go to a 763 or a 744.....never know with delta.
31 goldorak : During the summer AF flight is often operated by an A343 (mix of A332/A343)
32 baw716 : The 333 would make Paris no sweat. LH operates a 333 on SEA-FRA and it's just about the same distance as SEA-CDG with no weight penalties. IF Delta w
33 jetjack74 : I was talking to one the 767 guys on my last trip, and he said that DL was planning on making the 763 and 764 a common type-rating, and converting the
34 BoeingGuy : Careful what you listen to. They already are a common type rating - actually SAME type rating I think since they are the same major model. CO uses (o
35 deltal1011man : That they do, but doesn't CO have the 57s by itself? that is the rumor, but alot of pilots seem to think the 57s and 88s are going to get new cockpit
36 goldorak : The same flexibility exists also on the AF side : its all A332 service in winter and a mix of A332/A343 in summer. And, if needed in summer, it could
37 cbphoto : Yeah, I agree, however Delta might have something in place operationally that would not allow cross-fleet certification. They will get the 767 type r
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