Nickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1481 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1304 times:
Interesting application if you look at it on the DoT site. They state (rightfully so in my opinion) that CO has a long history of deferring on South American route applications. They won (over DL) rights to SCL a couple of years ago. DL was later awarded rights. CO pulled out of SCL. CO attempted to downsize IAH - GRU. Now, EZE ... (whilst CO has far more of an argument deferring this time than it did in the other cases, the precedent they have set in the past is not exactly great).
Jrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1248 times:
Would you please give some evidence as to why the JFK-EZE route will not be profitable any time soon? The Argentinian economy appears to be somewhat stabilizing. IN addition, Aerolinas Argentinas has abandoned the route. It seems as though it would make sense for Delta to enter the market. They have a growing operation at JFK, that will support numerous transfer passengers in addition to the O&D market.
Also, Delta has made record profits in past years. This last year's difficulties are related to labor problems and a slowing economy. Just wait until Continental has to get involved with the pilot negotiations. I do not think that they will fair much better.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
CO is probably doing the right thing - the economy of Argentina is in terrible shape at the moment and it is not the right time to open up this route. For the moment, Aerolineas Argentinas is bankrupt and not operating most of its international services. I wish DL luck the route, if they get it, but it will be years before they will make money on it.
It will be interesting to watch AA and UA concerning their operations into Buenos Aires - do you think that they will reduce service due to economic conditions in Argentina?
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1210 times:
DL will not get the route. CO is only defering because of the bad economy, and from what I have heard, they will start the route this upcoming winter. Sorry to burst your bubble DL, but ATL is not a Latin American gateway.
BTW, IAH-GRU was not scaled down. It went from 4 DC-10 flights a week to daily 762 flights. They just increased frequency with a smaller aircraft.
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1194 times:
Sorry to burst your bubble DL, but ATL is not a Latin American gateway.
Sorry to burst YOUR bubble, but yes, Atlanta is Delta's Latin America gateway. And despite what all the MIA fanatics tell you, it is quite profitable. Sorry to disappoint you. We at Delta Air Lines will try to do a better job of losing money in Latin America in the future. We promise.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1181 times:
And despite what all the MIA fanatics tell you, it is quite profitable.
It is? Care to back this statement up with some facts?
Traffic to the Latin American region is growing at the rate of 5.8% annually, which lags both Transatlantic traffic (6.2%) and Transpacific (8.1%) traffic as a growth segment. Unless Delta is grabbing a disproportionate share of premium passengers (which they are not - go check your BizElite loads to EZE or SCL), they are actually nowhere near as profitable as AA is in Miami.
Jrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1169 times:
I cannot find the exact information in the Delta annual report regarding Latin American operations. In the last two years, if I remember correctly, Delta's profit margins for Latin American operations were above 10%. That is a conservative estimate based upon my memory. I think they were more like 15%. Delta's Latin American operations, save some Mexican destinations, has been based out of Atlanta. Furthermore, Delta continues to expand its presence, leading one to believe that they are probably making money at it.
As far as BizElite loads to EZE.... Delta has not been flying that route for very long. They are a relatively new name in EZE. It is also winter there, and most South American desinations have fairly low load factors at the moment. They are, however, marketing with LAPA to get some transfer passengers through EZE from other points. I think that they will make some serious money on the route in the future.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1162 times:
jrlander - I dont have all the numbers in front of me, but you are correct. Delta's 1999 numbers had Latin American revenues of $375 mil based on costs of $320 mil for approx. 15% margin which was outstanding. However, their 2001 projections (based on a mixture of the Q1 10-Q filings and extrapolation) show revenue of $608 mil on expenses nearing $580 mil, which is closer to a 5% margin. That puts them well below AA in Miami in terms of profitability on these routes. Most of this is due to poor passenger loads on the new SCL and EZE services, which will probably grow with time. Nonetheless, DL remains a secondary player in the region as of RIGHT NOW.
Jrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1129 times:
Like DeltaSFO, I don't believe that I said that Delta was the primary carrier in the Latin American Region. All I said was that Delta's last two full years (1999 and 2000) were highly profitable for the airline.
TOMASKEMPNER From Mexico, joined May 2001, 389 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1102 times:
Atlanta has become an important transfer point for Latin american passengers, specially mexicans.
Miami is the largest in Latin American operations but Atlanta is new for latin-americans, before Delta´s expansion no one consider Atlanta as an option, everyone went to Miami, New York, Chicago.
As for Mexico, I could tell you that Atlanta gets more mexicans passengers every day, that is mainly because of the extensive route network DL covers from ATL. Also AM is DL partner and they´ll always try to transfer you via ATL, not MIA.
As for passengers they prefer going MEXICO- ATL- EUROPE in Delta, so that way they could accumulate more miles in the same carrier and sometimes never worry about they´re luggage. DL International Transfer Room is a good asset, so people without US visa could enter the US as transfer passengers and grab a snack in the room.
As for passenger going MEX-MIA-EUROPE there are many of them, but the problem is that AA European network out of MIA is not as large as DL´s. Although MIA is great if you are going to the Carribean, and cities like Caracas, Rio, Buenos Aires, etc.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31811 posts, RR: 72 Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1093 times:
Dutchjet, MIA-EZE is an important route for AA, with two daily 777-200ERs flying it. It's not going anywhere. In fact, AA operated a third-daily special flight with the annoucement of AR's suspension of services, and, if they can get the rights, AA will have zero problem filling up a third daily MIA-EZE flight (UA also has daily 777-200). ATL will never, ever replace MIA as the number one gateway to North America (or JFK as #2). However, ATL provides MUCH, MUCH better domestic connections that MIA will never offer (more for reasons of geography than anything else). But the truth is, however, that:
1) Most Latin Americans final destination in the US is usually New York City or Miami and...
2)...those who don't end their trip there usually continue on to other major American cities, for which Miami provides more than adequate connections (SFO, LAX, SEA, STL, DTW, ORD, MSY, DFW, IAH, MCO, DCA, IAD, DEN etc.)
I am sure DL will find succes flying to SCL, EZE, LIM, etc. from ATL (in fact, they have, AFAIK), but if they ever try doing flights to places like CLO, BAQ, LPB, VVI, GYE, etc., they are going to have trouble filling up planes like AA does out of MIA. Connections to Europe are, for the most part, better from ATL, but, again, MIA has the major connections, not to mention LHR. AA has big plans for MIA when their new terminal opens and plans to make it thier true international hub (currently dailies to LHR, MAD, CDG, codeshares to ZRH, IST), and not just to Latin America. The biggest advantage AA has however, is that no matter how bad the situation gets in Latin America, AA will ALWAYS have MIA's (and JFK's) O&D traffic to keep thier flights, like their five daily Miami-Caracas flights, afloat. DL cannot say the same for ATL.
ContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1085 times:
I hope Continental rethinks its strategy a bit here. They are in a better position to serve Argentina profitably from the New York area, given their hub at Newark and the dozens of connecting possibilities, not to mention the fact that Continental is the #2 US airline in Latin
America, behind American and well ahead of United.
The Atlanta-EZE flights probably do well simply because
of Delta's critical mass at ATL. However, Delta is not a
player in the #1 US-Latin America market (Miami) and
#2, (New York). Although there are dozens of flights a
day between Miami and Atlanta, who would really want
to fly up to fly South.
December is still six months away and the economic
situation might improve. Aerolineas Argentina's future
is bleak, so perhaps CO can pick up the extra demand.
Jrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1077 times:
Delta's goal is to become a major player in the JFK-Latin America market. The JFK-EZE flight is supposedly part of the 2nd part of their Latin American expansion, which focuses on connecting JFK with all major business centers in Latin America. Delta will never be a competitor in the MIA market, as it doesn't make sense. But they do have a growing market share serving that section of the world through ATL and soon JFK.
Deltasas From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1062 times:
I think that Delta will get the EZE rights, due to the fact that 1. we were able to get some to GRU when CO did not use them all and 2. the DOT will have to make a decision soon, it usually takes about 3 months to gear up new service---CO will just have to wait until more slots become available
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1064 times:
The question here is whether CO is willing to relinquish those rights in perpetuity, which I somehow feel is a different ballgame than the temporary postponement of service. CO simply cannot afford to lose any NY area Latin American traffic to Delta.
That said, remember that the rights are still with Continental. They have never expressed the intention to relinquish them, merely applied for permission to defer service. If (when?) the permission is denied, they can either choose to default on their service obligation (and thus relinquish the rights), or they can operate the flights anyway. Gordon and his boys are smart enough to realize that the latter choice is the better one, even if it means short-term losses.
CV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 951 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1058 times:
In this world where you have to win the rights to serve another country it takes lots of political connections and money. I would have imagined that if CO had used these to get the routes then theyw ould have researched them and would have known what they are getting into. If they were awarded them they should have to fly them or loss them. They were negotiated by the US and they choose who got them. They choose based off of the fact that they were going to be used, not put on the side for possible future use.
25 Nickofatlanta: Whichever side you take (CO or DL), can you agree that it is far better that this route authority that took a long time to negotiate should be used co
26 AirafriqueDKR: CO was also awarded rights to operate EWR/CLO/MDE by the DOT. CO planned to start service on Oct. 1, but they applied for a waiver with the DOT to def
27 DeltAirlines: Now to throw in a curveball. I was reading DOT applications, and UA also wants these slots so they can do LAX-EZE. UA claims they should get them beca
28 Padcrasher: Here's a little comparison of AA and DL as far as measured by RPMs to Latin America. In 1999 AA was more than 6 times larger than DL. Currently, with
29 B747-437B: Actually, as per their filing on Thursday, UA has also applied for a modification of their "backup" rights from LAX-EZE with 772 to a IAD-EZE service
30 AA_717: I was just at the DOT web site for about 10 minutes and searched everywhere, but could not find any airline applications for routes. What do I do?
31 B747-437B: Try the Docket Management System at : http://dms.dot.gov/reports/
32 Nickofatlanta: Search under Continental Airlines in Docket Title. Then, press reverse order. The United (and Delta) application is part of their response to the Cont
33 TOMASKEMPNER: I think DL know what they are doing. In the last year the carrier has been very wise. They pull out all they PDX-Asia services, because there was litt
34 MAH4546: Padcrasher, how can you even compare? Yes, the gap is going to get smaller but DL will NEVER get ahead of AA, thanks to three letters - M-I-A. ATL, ev
35 Hadpa: MAH4546....I have a correction. As I know, AA has 14x in 763 from MIA to SCL, operated by them, and there are 14 x by Lan
36 MAH4546: Hadpa, maybe your right, but I can only find one AA flight on OAG plus the LA's 2 daily codeshares. They don't codeshare, though, on LA's MIA-SCL flig
37 Nickofatlanta: AA is proposing to use the rights for DFW - EZE daily nonstops using 777s.
38 Nycank: Ancedotally speaking, there is a perception with many in Central America and South America, that ATL is *not* a friendly US gateway. In the same vein
39 Lima: When Delta started its EZE route it used an MD11. Then they changed for a 767-300. Why? it is not more wise to do the other way around, particularly b
40 Jrlander: I'm not sure if this is actually the answer, but Delta's 767 fleet is far more reliable than their MD-11 fleet. Using 767's helps Delta guarantee more
41 B747-437B: The reason for the switch to 767 was that the MD-11s are now required for the new JFK-CAI-DXB and JFK-TLV services.
42 Greg: Why do we always assume that Delta knows what they are doing. According to the book 'Debunking the Myth'--the stellar management at DAL has missed num
43 B747-437B: Why do we always assume that Delta knows what they are doing. *ROTFLMAO* Sad, but so true.... so true....
44 Jrlander: Why do you assume that simply because you can get business class seats on Delta that AA is doing better? Have you considered the number of business cl
45 Greg: It's not an assumption..it's an observation. Premium seats on AA are not available---DL is always available. That should be some indication that AA is