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DL: DTW-TPE On The Horizon?  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9748 times:

Hey all,

With DL's meteoric rise of Pacific flights from DTW and with CI joining SkyTeam, is a DTW-TPE route anywhere in the near future??

DL's Pacific expansion from DTW seems to be increasing at a steady rate. With only cutting one flight, DTW-KIX, they've added DTW-HND, DTW-ICN, DTW-HKG, DTW-PVG (now upgauged to 744), and soon DTW-PEK. The summer schedule will see NRT-TPE served by a 744 with the new increase of capacity and demand for the route with the CI codeshares.

DTW-TPE clocks in at 7543mi, so it would be on the fence between having to use an ER or an LR. An ER could do it, it would just be a question of how much of a payload hit the flights would take.



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A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9734 times:

The 744 that will do NRT - TPE will have originated in DTW, so there will be same-plane service DTW - TPE


SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7045 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9734 times:

I wouldn't be surprised, but not until 2012 or 2013 and only if the rest of their Pacific stuff stays great.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9713 times:

I don't think DTW-TPE will happen. First, DL doesn't have the aircraft to be starting another longhaul flight to Asia from DTW, it would require a 777 or 744, which DL is now running short on with the upcoming additions of DTW-HND, LAX-HND, DTW-PEK, and ATL-PVG. Second, there's close to zero O&D between DTW-TPE, most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties, with China O&D growing as well. If DL starts a new flight to TPE, I think it would be probably SEA-TPE, which could possibly operate with an A332, albeit heavily weight restricted. However, I think the chances of SEA-TPE are only marginally better than DTW-TPE, both having very little chance of starting, IMHO.

Jeremy


User currently offlineflyinghippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9687 times:

I think TPE with DL will always be from NRT hub, with the exception of maybe LAX. NW never served TPE from the US mainland, it's always been through NRT.

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3894 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9626 times:

There was a LAX-TPE service on NWA in the past, sometime in the early '90s. Given the feed on both ends of the route, I don't think DTW-TPE is out of the realm of possibility.

[Edited 2011-01-05 09:15:40]

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9428 times:

The trip TPE-America is typically either 2-stop or requires changing carriers to make a 1-stop. DTW-TPE would provide better service to lots of people. It isn't about Detroit; it's about Boston, Orlando, all Eastern cities would have 1-stop single carrier service to Taipei. That's also why they serve China from DTW.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9396 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
That's also why they serve China from DTW.

Taipei doesn't have a fraction of the demand that China has, totally different markets. DTW-KIX will come back long before DTW-TPE is started.

Jeremy


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7045 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9296 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Second, there's close to zero O&D between DTW-TPE, most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties, with China O&D growing as well.

I think you need to look at the data again. I can't post the exact data due to U.S. disclosure rules on DB1B int'l, but China has overtaken Japan and is growing quickly. The new Beijing flight should push it way past Japan. TPE is about 2x larger than HKG in terms of traffic prior to the non-stop HKG service.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4877 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9217 times:
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Problem is the TPE market is not particularly high-yield. Fares ex-TPE to the US in the premium cabins are some of the lowest in Asia (together with MNL). Many US airlines have simply left the TPE-US nonstops to the Taiwanese carriers (notice that UA has never restarted TPE-SFO even when things started picking up).

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7045 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9164 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 9):
Problem is the TPE market is not particularly high-yield.

It's comparable to Beijing in this case. PVG is considerably higher than either, but TPE and PEK are both around $1000 OW on average. I don't doubt that's not the case on the West Coast where there is an ethnic market.


User currently offlinedynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1861 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9081 times:

The first step is to upgrade the equipment from 752 to 333 on the NRT-TPE leg starting on Sunday, Mar 27th. DTW-TPE nonstop not going to happen any time soon.

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9036 times:

Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 11):
The first step is to upgrade the equipment from 752 to 333 on the NRT-TPE leg starting on Sunday, Mar 27th. DTW-TPE nonstop not going to happen any time soon.

True, but DL is actually upgauging NRT-TPE again with the summer schedule, making the route a 744. If that does well, the only way to get additional capacity in the market (should it eventually be necessary) would be additional flights. Admittedly, it may still be the case that additional flights would even be via Japan. DL has maintained NRT-MNL and NGO-MNL on 744's and is now adding a second NRT-MNL on the 752 some days.

Perhaps it would be feasible for DL to (sort of) kill two birds with one stone and start a DTW-KIX-TPE route at some point down that road. I don't know what, if any, local demand there is between KIX and TPE, but that could be a way for them to get back into KIX non-stop from DTW and direct into TPE with an additional flight.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8991 times:

Not to take anything away from this interesting topic, I think DL should focus first on unlocking a few new destinations, as opposed to expanding existing cities. Let the partnerships develop first with regards to TPE.

DL needs to take a(nother) look at opening CGK and KUL from NRT first.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8872 times:

Aircraft, especially longhaul equipment, are scarce resources which airlines must carefully deploy. While DL has equipment which can fly Midwest to East Asia non stop, it has to maximize the potential of those limited number of longhaul aircraft. I'm sure TPE can be made profitable, but I assume that DL has determined there's more profit to be made allocating the aircraft elsewhere.

So I think one stop service to TPE is here to stay.

[Edited 2011-01-05 13:09:06]


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8789 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 1):
The 744 that will do NRT - TPE will have originated in DTW, so there will be same-plane service DTW - TPE

That wasn't exactly what I was going for  

In any case, aircraft do not always follow their flight numbers, *especially* in NRT. NRT is used as the single most frequent point to rotate aircraft. If aircraft followed their flight numbers, they'd be forever 'stuck' doing DTW-NRT-TPE, TPE-NRT-DTW, and again. That simply doesn't happen.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
it would require a 777 or 744, which DL is now running short on

This is the #1 problem right now, true enough.

ATL-LOS is going to A332 from 777, so beyond that about the only 777 route even remotely within range of the A332 is ATL-TLV. Otherwise, the only answer is to get more high quality second hand market planes, 777 or 747.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineyeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8657 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
Is a DTW-TPE route anywhere in the near future??

If it were inaugurated the route would be the 20th longest flight in the world (6555nm), just behind DXB-GRU at 6597nm (flown by EK with a 77W) and ahead of AUH-SYD at 6510nm flown by EY with a 346.

You can see all twenty flights (along with runners-up) at:
World's 20 Longest (by yeogeo Dec 11 2010 in Aviation Polls)
shameless plug  

yeo



Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8626 times:

Quoting flyinghippo (Reply 4):
I think TPE with DL will always be from NRT hub, with the exception of maybe LAX. NW never served TPE from the US mainland, it's always been through NRT.

In the days of the PDX hub DL operated PDX-TPE-BKK DL55/56 with MD-11's


User currently offlineyeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 16):
If it were inaugurated the route would be the 20th longest flight in the world

Wrong wrong wrong!
It would fall into the 22nd spot, not 20th.

Sorry   

yeo



Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

Quoting deltacto (Reply 17):
In the days of the PDX hub DL operated PDX-TPE-BKK DL55/56 with MD-11's

At one time, on of CEO Ron Allen's ambitious plans was to open up an Asian hub in TPE.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8227 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 15):
Otherwise, the only answer is to get more high quality second hand market planes, 777 or 747.

.....or order new 777s.

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):

At one time, on of CEO Ron Allen's ambitious plans was to open up an Asian hub in TPE.

Good old Ron.  



yep.
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties,

I would disagree on historical grounds. It is more like this.
DL bought NW which had a nice Asia Network built up over almost 60 years of service starting in 1949. (well before there was a global Japanese auto industry). NW helped in rebuilding Japan after WWII by assisting with training pilots, flight attendants and even lending planes to JL to get going. At the same time the Soviet cut off overflying and China went through a revolution. That meant no flying over their airspace but going around.

NW then merged with Republic which brought DTW in as a HUB. This was not because of cars but because of a need for more domestic feed. NW saw that DTW could be linked to Asia in 1987, just about the time of the Japanese economic bubble. There were only two locations in East Asia accessible from the US non-stop from DTW with a 742; SEL and NRT. But SEL would require flying around Russia and China and over Japan...so why not just fly to NRT.

One major thing to remember is that MSP could not expand to handle capacity, of an extensive global airline network but DTW could. It was more rural and had room for rearranging. MSP is blocked in by the city on three sides and a river on one.

Yes DTW O&D might be Automotive but DTW as a hub was more for gaining domestic feed to international service than it was for getting O&D. I think that is still true today.

Quoting steex (Reply 12):
Perhaps it would be feasible for DL to (sort of) kill two birds with one stone and start a DTW-KIX-TPE route at some point down that road.

This actually was the route for NW a few years back. DTW-KIX-TPE with a large number of pax going on to TPE. Today at KIX there is HNL-KIX and SEA-KIX. CI serves both those markets directly from TPE. I would estimate that CI will probably get DL codes on their US routes and CI will get codes on a few Japan-US routes. You can already search flights to MSP, DTW, ATL and SLC on CI's website. That means they already have agreements in place. Maybe there would be some realignment of CI at NGO, KIX and NRT to allow for better connecting as well. That might be difficult but it would be better for both.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

I've talked about ORD-TPE here for some time, but the experts and DL lovers here talk about how low the yields are. I'm not surprised to see that DTW-TPE is a match made in heaven.

User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

Was there some talk a while back the CI was to start Non-Stop service to DTW from TPE?? I remember DL/NW making
a big deal about it around the time of the merger. Correct me if I'm wrong please....

Chuck


User currently offline1stclass From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

Another option to add capacity is to code share CI between PEK and TPE. Maybe it's more justifiable to add capacity to PEK than operates nonstop between DTW-TPE. There must be a reason that SQ and UA aren't thinking about restart their service from LAX and SFO respectively.

25 deltal1011man : Well I think its has to do with 1) I don't think a single one of your *rumors* have come true or 2) ORD-TPE isn't a hub to hub route like DTW-TPE wou
26 Post contains images airtechy : Actually, I think that flight had an additional stop at the old Seoul airport. I was on it several times and still remember it was neat to see a Delt
27 steex : Thanks, centrair. I knew NW flew DTW-KIX-XXX, but couldn't remember the tag off-hand. I had been thinking TPE, but I'd rather be uncertain than risk
28 mayor : Well, unless they changed plans just before they dropped the whole idea, I do know that hub was supposed to be in TPE.
29 anonms : DL and CI have been codesharing for a long time, contributing to CI joining SkyTeam being such a long-term rumor. I think a better idea than DL start
30 FiestaFlight : I used to do DTW-KIX-TPE (fed from BOS) 3 times a year for a couple of years. In the beginning, it was a mix of Japanese/Chinese/Taiwanese/U.S. travel
31 mogandoCI : i thought UA did restart it for a year or so around 08/09 before re-cancelling it ? but if UA and their prime pacific hub of SFO can't sustain TPE, i
32 Therock401 : NW did an island-hopper to Taipei in the early 90s on a DC-10. I believe it was NW924 (flight number was in the 920s, I think that was it), routed MSP
33 deltacto : DL59 operated PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK using L1011-500's In the early 90's when the MD11's came along, it was split into 2 flights: DL59 PDX-SEL DL55 PDX-TPE-
34 coolfish1103 : There's recently rumors where... BR will change it's Newark flight to be non-stop both ways. Meaning they will lift ANC off the return segment, making
35 FSDan : I wonder why they haven't already done this. Cathay seems to do fine with 77Ws on the slightly longer JFK-HKG route. I don't believe they have 5th fr
36 EddieDude : JFK and ANC are in the same country, therefore that would not be 5th freedom rights, but rather cabotage rights, and that is not going to happen. Eve
37 trex8 : IIRC at least when CI first did TPE-SEA-IAH, alot of the IAH pax were headed for Vietnam. I guess with direct Taiwan-PRC flights they could tap into
38 anonms : A lot of CI's passengers from the US in general are Vietnam-bound. Which isn't surprising since VN puts their codes on CI's TPAC flights and DL's cod
39 centrair : If CI wants ORD, then DTW would be out due to proximity. But then again, KE flies ORD-ICN and DL flies DTW-ICN and pax can be routed through either on
40 Post contains links trex8 : All 24,000 Chinese Americans of all origin in Houston won't make it a profitable route!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icant_Chinese_America
41 coolfish1103 : Houston won't be the only city in Texas that will be able to support the route. I believe most Taiwanese live in Sugarland? That's at least another 7k
42 azncsa4qf744er : Off topic here, but will Delta ever restart SGN flight again?
43 trex8 : With VN supposedly starting flights to US at some point and a A380 customer (ok so the LOI/MOU has not translated to an order yet) I doubt you will se
44 steex : The thing making this unlikely at this point is that DL does not have fifth freedom rights on NRT-SGN, so they cannot capture local passengers. NW ne
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