Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13 Posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9802 times:
With DL's meteoric rise of Pacific flights from DTW and with CI joining SkyTeam, is a DTW-TPE route anywhere in the near future??
DL's Pacific expansion from DTW seems to be increasing at a steady rate. With only cutting one flight, DTW-KIX, they've added DTW-HND, DTW-ICN, DTW-HKG, DTW-PVG (now upgauged to 744), and soon DTW-PEK. The summer schedule will see NRT-TPE served by a 744 with the new increase of capacity and demand for the route with the CI codeshares.
DTW-TPE clocks in at 7543mi, so it would be on the fence between having to use an ER or an LR. An ER could do it, it would just be a question of how much of a payload hit the flights would take.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9767 times:
I don't think DTW-TPE will happen. First, DL doesn't have the aircraft to be starting another longhaul flight to Asia from DTW, it would require a 777 or 744, which DL is now running short on with the upcoming additions of DTW-HND, LAX-HND, DTW-PEK, and ATL-PVG. Second, there's close to zero O&D between DTW-TPE, most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties, with China O&D growing as well. If DL starts a new flight to TPE, I think it would be probably SEA-TPE, which could possibly operate with an A332, albeit heavily weight restricted. However, I think the chances of SEA-TPE are only marginally better than DTW-TPE, both having very little chance of starting, IMHO.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9482 times:
The trip TPE-America is typically either 2-stop or requires changing carriers to make a 1-stop. DTW-TPE would provide better service to lots of people. It isn't about Detroit; it's about Boston, Orlando, all Eastern cities would have 1-stop single carrier service to Taipei. That's also why they serve China from DTW.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7111 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9350 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3): Second, there's close to zero O&D between DTW-TPE, most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties, with China O&D growing as well.
I think you need to look at the data again. I can't post the exact data due to U.S. disclosure rules on DB1B int'l, but China has overtaken Japan and is growing quickly. The new Beijing flight should push it way past Japan. TPE is about 2x larger than HKG in terms of traffic prior to the non-stop HKG service.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9271 times:
Problem is the TPE market is not particularly high-yield. Fares ex-TPE to the US in the premium cabins are some of the lowest in Asia (together with MNL). Many US airlines have simply left the TPE-US nonstops to the Taiwanese carriers (notice that UA has never restarted TPE-SFO even when things started picking up).
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7111 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9218 times:
Quoting panamair (Reply 9): Problem is the TPE market is not particularly high-yield.
It's comparable to Beijing in this case. PVG is considerably higher than either, but TPE and PEK are both around $1000 OW on average. I don't doubt that's not the case on the West Coast where there is an ethnic market.
steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9090 times:
Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 11): The first step is to upgrade the equipment from 752 to 333 on the NRT-TPE leg starting on Sunday, Mar 27th. DTW-TPE nonstop not going to happen any time soon.
True, but DL is actually upgauging NRT-TPE again with the summer schedule, making the route a 744. If that does well, the only way to get additional capacity in the market (should it eventually be necessary) would be additional flights. Admittedly, it may still be the case that additional flights would even be via Japan. DL has maintained NRT-MNL and NGO-MNL on 744's and is now adding a second NRT-MNL on the 752 some days.
Perhaps it would be feasible for DL to (sort of) kill two birds with one stone and start a DTW-KIX-TPE route at some point down that road. I don't know what, if any, local demand there is between KIX and TPE, but that could be a way for them to get back into KIX non-stop from DTW and direct into TPE with an additional flight.
peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9045 times:
Not to take anything away from this interesting topic, I think DL should focus first on unlocking a few new destinations, as opposed to expanding existing cities. Let the partnerships develop first with regards to TPE.
DL needs to take a(nother) look at opening CGK and KUL from NRT first.
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max999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8926 times:
Aircraft, especially longhaul equipment, are scarce resources which airlines must carefully deploy. While DL has equipment which can fly Midwest to East Asia non stop, it has to maximize the potential of those limited number of longhaul aircraft. I'm sure TPE can be made profitable, but I assume that DL has determined there's more profit to be made allocating the aircraft elsewhere.
So I think one stop service to TPE is here to stay.
[Edited 2011-01-05 13:09:06]
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Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8843 times:
Quoting FSDan (Reply 1): The 744 that will do NRT - TPE will have originated in DTW, so there will be same-plane service DTW - TPE
That wasn't exactly what I was going for
In any case, aircraft do not always follow their flight numbers, *especially* in NRT. NRT is used as the single most frequent point to rotate aircraft. If aircraft followed their flight numbers, they'd be forever 'stuck' doing DTW-NRT-TPE, TPE-NRT-DTW, and again. That simply doesn't happen.
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3): it would require a 777 or 744, which DL is now running short on
This is the #1 problem right now, true enough.
ATL-LOS is going to A332 from 777, so beyond that about the only 777 route even remotely within range of the A332 is ATL-TLV. Otherwise, the only answer is to get more high quality second hand market planes, 777 or 747.
centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8139 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3): most of DTW's O&D to Asia is concentrated in Japan due to auto industry ties,
I would disagree on historical grounds. It is more like this.
DL bought NW which had a nice Asia Network built up over almost 60 years of service starting in 1949. (well before there was a global Japanese auto industry). NW helped in rebuilding Japan after WWII by assisting with training pilots, flight attendants and even lending planes to JL to get going. At the same time the Soviet cut off overflying and China went through a revolution. That meant no flying over their airspace but going around.
NW then merged with Republic which brought DTW in as a HUB. This was not because of cars but because of a need for more domestic feed. NW saw that DTW could be linked to Asia in 1987, just about the time of the Japanese economic bubble. There were only two locations in East Asia accessible from the US non-stop from DTW with a 742; SEL and NRT. But SEL would require flying around Russia and China and over Japan...so why not just fly to NRT.
One major thing to remember is that MSP could not expand to handle capacity, of an extensive global airline network but DTW could. It was more rural and had room for rearranging. MSP is blocked in by the city on three sides and a river on one.
Yes DTW O&D might be Automotive but DTW as a hub was more for gaining domestic feed to international service than it was for getting O&D. I think that is still true today.
Quoting steex (Reply 12): Perhaps it would be feasible for DL to (sort of) kill two birds with one stone and start a DTW-KIX-TPE route at some point down that road.
This actually was the route for NW a few years back. DTW-KIX-TPE with a large number of pax going on to TPE. Today at KIX there is HNL-KIX and SEA-KIX. CI serves both those markets directly from TPE. I would estimate that CI will probably get DL codes on their US routes and CI will get codes on a few Japan-US routes. You can already search flights to MSP, DTW, ATL and SLC on CI's website. That means they already have agreements in place. Maybe there would be some realignment of CI at NGO, KIX and NRT to allow for better connecting as well. That might be difficult but it would be better for both.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
1stclass From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7779 times:
Another option to add capacity is to code share CI between PEK and TPE. Maybe it's more justifiable to add capacity to PEK than operates nonstop between DTW-TPE. There must be a reason that SQ and UA aren't thinking about restart their service from LAX and SFO respectively.
: Well I think its has to do with 1) I don't think a single one of your *rumors* have come true or 2) ORD-TPE isn't a hub to hub route like DTW-TPE wou
: Actually, I think that flight had an additional stop at the old Seoul airport. I was on it several times and still remember it was neat to see a Delt
: Thanks, centrair. I knew NW flew DTW-KIX-XXX, but couldn't remember the tag off-hand. I had been thinking TPE, but I'd rather be uncertain than risk
: Well, unless they changed plans just before they dropped the whole idea, I do know that hub was supposed to be in TPE.
: DL and CI have been codesharing for a long time, contributing to CI joining SkyTeam being such a long-term rumor. I think a better idea than DL start
: I used to do DTW-KIX-TPE (fed from BOS) 3 times a year for a couple of years. In the beginning, it was a mix of Japanese/Chinese/Taiwanese/U.S. travel
: i thought UA did restart it for a year or so around 08/09 before re-cancelling it ? but if UA and their prime pacific hub of SFO can't sustain TPE, i
: NW did an island-hopper to Taipei in the early 90s on a DC-10. I believe it was NW924 (flight number was in the 920s, I think that was it), routed MSP
: DL59 operated PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK using L1011-500's In the early 90's when the MD11's came along, it was split into 2 flights: DL59 PDX-SEL DL55 PDX-TPE-
: There's recently rumors where... BR will change it's Newark flight to be non-stop both ways. Meaning they will lift ANC off the return segment, making
: I wonder why they haven't already done this. Cathay seems to do fine with 77Ws on the slightly longer JFK-HKG route. I don't believe they have 5th fr
: JFK and ANC are in the same country, therefore that would not be 5th freedom rights, but rather cabotage rights, and that is not going to happen. Eve
: IIRC at least when CI first did TPE-SEA-IAH, alot of the IAH pax were headed for Vietnam. I guess with direct Taiwan-PRC flights they could tap into
: A lot of CI's passengers from the US in general are Vietnam-bound. Which isn't surprising since VN puts their codes on CI's TPAC flights and DL's cod
: If CI wants ORD, then DTW would be out due to proximity. But then again, KE flies ORD-ICN and DL flies DTW-ICN and pax can be routed through either on
: All 24,000 Chinese Americans of all origin in Houston won't make it a profitable route!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icant_Chinese_America
: Houston won't be the only city in Texas that will be able to support the route. I believe most Taiwanese live in Sugarland? That's at least another 7k
: Off topic here, but will Delta ever restart SGN flight again?
: With VN supposedly starting flights to US at some point and a A380 customer (ok so the LOI/MOU has not translated to an order yet) I doubt you will se
: The thing making this unlikely at this point is that DL does not have fifth freedom rights on NRT-SGN, so they cannot capture local passengers. NW ne