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KL MIA-AMS Preformance Predictions  
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Im starting this forum to see what people's predictions are for the success of this new route, including what the loads and yield will be. I think this new service should be heavily advertised and marketed to the Miami public these coming two months leading to March, in order to give this flight a good start. Also im curious to see what people's thoughts are on the impact of this new route, especially on already exsisting European carriers.

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6434 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3565 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
Im starting this forum to see what people's predictions are for the success of this new route, including what the loads and yield will be. I think this new service should be heavily advertised and marketed to the Miami public these coming two months leading to March, in order to give this flight a good start. Also im curious to see what people's thoughts are on the impact of this new route, especially on already exsisting European carriers.




I feel sure that the KL/AF/DL joint venture realize the the majority of passengers will originate on the Europe side of the flight rather than on the US side. Thus the heavy advertising and marketing will take place on the Europe side.


User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
and yield will be

No airline publishes Yields- unless you know someone whithin the company, no one is for sure how the yields are going to be- Expect it to be heavily discounted within the first few months..

We can only speculate.

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
I think this new service should be heavily advertised and marketed to the Miami public these coming two months leading to March

It's all about gaining new contracts with local companies, travel agencies- Plenty of cruise passengers from both sides.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3505 times:

I think it will be a success. Both are party cities so shouldn't be hard to find pax from each end.

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Some saythat since this flight is marketed towards the Northern Europe market it wont preform so well.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 4):
Some saythat since this flight is marketed towards the Northern Europe market it wont preform so well.

Source? Who said that?



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):

Many people here on anet have been saying that for some time. Its well known that MIA's strongest market is to Southern Europe and not Northern and that is were its yields are the strongest. Plus do you know when the new customs hall in the north terminal opens?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 6):
Many people here on anet have been saying that for some time. Its well known that MIA's strongest market is to Southern Europe and not Northern and that is were its yields are the strongest.

But nobody has said that a) the yields to Northern Europe are weak and b) that KLM is aiming at the northern Europe market.

Your deductions are very poor here: you are deducing that because Southern Europe is strong, Northern Europe is weak. You don't have anything to make that deduction on. This isn't "opposites."

You are also deducing that KLM is only going to connect to northern Europe. Once again, you are incorrect.. I already gave you quite a long list of the available connections outside northern Europe in another thread, and I only stopped at letter "C."



a.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Quoting miaintl (Reply 6):
Many people here on anet have been saying that for some time. Its well known that MIA's strongest market is to Southern Europe and not Northern and that is were its yields are the strongest.

But nobody has said that a) the yields to Northern Europe are weak and b) that KLM is aiming at the northern Europe market.

Your deductions are very poor here: you are deducing that because Southern Europe is strong, Northern Europe is weak. You don't have anything to make that deduction on. This isn't "opposites."

You are also deducing that KLM is only going to connect to northern Europe. Once again, you are incorrect.. I already gave you quite a long list of the available connections outside northern Europe in another thread, and I only stopped at letter "C."

What makes it more likely KL will succeed on AMS-MIA this time than when they (and NW -- both operated their own aircraft at various times) operated the route in the past as part of their immunized alliance?


User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4741 posts, RR: 45
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Are people forgetting that the MFW area contains a lot of SkyTeam loyal passengers and the flight will be heavily marketed by Delta?


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
What makes it more likely KL will succeed on AMS-MIA this time than when they (and NW -- both operated their own aircraft at various times) operated the route in the past as part of their immunized alliance?

Three things in particular:

1) A much stronger travel market in 2011 than existed in 2004 (and 2001-2004 in general, for that matter).
2) The lack of Martinair today, which destroyed yields on the Miami-Amsterdam route and made it difficult to compete.
3) Immunization with Delta Air Lines, Alitalia and Air France, none of which previously existed. And, related to which, Northwest has never been strong in South Florida. Delta Air Lines always has been.



a.
User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1682 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

It will be a success overall (not in Business Class), however, plenty of passengers will choose MIA because:

- excellent connections to Caribbean, Central- and South America.
- lot's of cruises depart from the MIA-FLL area, generating a lot of European 'clients'...

No doubt DL, as well as AF, together with KL will promote this new destination !!!



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9692 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Quoting MH017 (Reply 11):
- excellent connections to Caribbean, Central- and South America.

I agree with you on this but those excellent connections are operated by competing airline AA so their own alliance partner DL will not benefit from this. I'm not sure if that is what they are aiming for.

As for MP not flying now, giving KL a better opportunity, let's not forget that Arkefly will also start flights to MIA...?

A388


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6434 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 6):
Its well known that MIA's strongest market is to Southern Europe and not Northern and that is were its yields are the strongest. Plus do you know when the new customs hall in the north terminal opens?




As I stated earlier, the market for this flight will primarily rely on Europe to the US passengers, not the US to Europe. So saying that northern Europe in MIA's strongest market ( which I don't believe is true), KL is not putting this flight on because of MIA originating passengers.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7087 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting MH017 (Reply 11):
- excellent connections to Caribbean, Central- and South America.

As stated earlier there are not many connection options for Skyteam. Star and One World have a good presence in MIA. Skyteam does not. There is just Aeromexico and a few DL destinations like TPA and MCO.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

I am also curious on how TP will preform, but i am sure it will do well since MIA has strong historical and cultural ties to Portugal and Southern Europe in general.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
let's not forget that Arkefly will also start flights to MIA...?

Yes, but with two weekly flights and on capacity shared with Orlando, plus with the majority of tickets pre-sold via vacation packages. It's not much of an issue.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 13):
So saying that northern Europe in MIA's strongest market ( which I don't believe is true),

He said that southern Europe is MIA's strongest European market, which is absolutely true. Miami's cultural and business ties with Europe largely lie with Spain and Italy, as well as the UK. Most U.S. cities tend to have stronger ties to northern Europe, especially Germany and the UK.



a.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9692 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Yes, but with two weekly flights and on capacity shared with Orlando, plus with the majority of tickets pre-sold via vacation packages. It's not much of an issue.

And who says the route will not be nonstop to MIA if Arkefly sees that loads to MIA are better? Who says they will remain doing a combined routing with MCO? Isn't KL expected to do extremely well to MIA? Why can't Arkefly? Didn't MP also sell packages via tour operators besides selling tickets directly to customers? To my knowledge they did (?)

A388


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Yes, but with two weekly flights and on capacity shared with Orlando, plus with the majority of tickets pre-sold via vacation packages. It's not much of an issue.

And who says the route will not be nonstop to MIA if Arkefly sees that loads to MIA are better? Who says they will remain doing a combined routing with MCO?

Let's see what happens before playing such ridiculous hypotheticals.

Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
Didn't MP also sell packages via tour operators besides selling tickets directly to customers? To my knowledge they did (?)

Yes, but the majority of seats were sold via GDS and their own website. Martinair can be found on the likes of Expedia, Orbitz, etc.; Arkefly cannot be. Very limited exposure, where areas Martinair is widely available through all the same dsitribution channels as KLM. Martinair did a very good job attracting Miami-originating traffic; Arkefly doesn't have the distribution networks to do that, and with the stop in Sanford on the way back, it wouldn't be popular even if it did.

The reality is simple: being distributed through identical distribution networks, KLM and Martinair were often in pricing wars on the route, with Martinair having the clear cut advantage. Arkefly and KLM are being sold through entirely different distribution networks, and pricing wars won't be an issue.

[Edited 2011-01-06 11:46:26]

[Edited 2011-01-06 11:46:49]


a.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9692 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Let's see what happens before playing such ridiculous hypotheticals.

You're definately right, let's wait before playing such ridiculous hypotheticals....

A388


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 19):

Well lets see the route can go either way, but TP has the clear advantage in successful new route. But KL can also be succesful this time if they market it right.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32575 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 20):
Well lets see the route can go either way, but TP has the clear advantage in successful new route. But KL can also be succesful this time if they market it right.

What clear advantage?

KLM has a more recognized name, a stronger alliance partner network with ATI, a significantly larger O&D market and can offer far superior connections, including to the very important Italy market.

TAP works with a less recognized name, a smaller O&D market, a weaker and more geographically isolated hub and in a market (the Iberian peninsula) that already has significant competition.



a.
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