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Porpoising JAL 777-300 Caught On Video  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 30921 times:

Oh boy here they go again. More evidence of training lapses at JAL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX_TtAzupHA

Lucky to have saved the tail structure of the aircraft with what looks like just a minor impact of tailskid with the runway - but even with the dark several bounces can be seen just by watching the nav lights.

I wish I could say this is a rare occurrence - but between a survey of landing videos and my own personal observation experience, there is a bit of poor technique among some JAL crews, particularly on the 777. Lots of carrying crab angle into the touchdown and side-loading of MLG to be seen.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 30738 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Oh boy here they go again. More evidence of training lapses at JAL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX_TtAzupHA

Lucky to have saved the tail structure of the aircraft with what looks like just a minor impact of tailskid with the runway - but even with the dark several bounces can be seen just by watching the nav lights.

I wish I could say this is a rare occurrence - but between a survey of landing videos and my own personal observation experience, there is a bit of poor technique among some JAL crews, particularly on the 777. Lots of carrying crab angle into the touchdown and side-loading of MLG to be seen.

Ohh boy, here we go again! Calling more arm chair pilots to rescue!

First off, I definitely do not see a porpoise anywhere in that video. From what I can tell, the nose wheel of the aircraft does not touch anywhere in that video. It looks to me like a hard bounce, followed by aft pressure on the stick, which caused the tail to strike and more bounces to occur. But what do I know, its a very dark video in which you can barely tell anything that happened.

I am way more interested in what observations you have made (survey of landing videos?) to throw the JAL training department under the bus like that? Do you work for JAL, do you know people in JAL who have stories? Or is it just you watching youtube videos and judging the videos yourself? Do you know all of the conditions that existed when those landing videos were taken? Sorry if I seem harsh, I enjoyed the video and all, why can;t you just post it as that? Bad landing with JAL 777? So much better then making up some story about JALs training department and crew.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 30545 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
First off, I definitely do not see a porpoise anywhere in that video

Porpoise is certainly the wrong term, but I didn't want to re-title the video.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
Do you work for JAL, do you know people in JAL who have stories?

I know several JAL express pilots and former JAL captains who now work elsewhere overseas. All have at one time or another expressed concerns about training, particularly poor skills of younger pilots. I also spent 2 years in Japan training ATCs in English proficiency and heard boatloads of anecdotal references from them about the poor performance of JAL crews, particularly miscommunication.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
So much better then making up some story about JALs training department and crew.

None of this is made up.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20051223a9.html

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060117a6.html

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...f-without-permission-hokkaido.html

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index....=dlattach;topic=5680.0;attach=2381

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20090125a2.html

There's plenty more in the Japanese language press but a lot doesn't even make it to reporters since the government has shielded JAL from scrutiny since the 2005 flap.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineje89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 30427 times:
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PHOTO SCREENER

Interesting video, but it's quite dark to see the details, unfortunately. In my opinion, the go around was definitely the right decision for that situation. I bet those people in the recent Tegucigalpa B733 thread would say that the pilots should have continued with the landing as he would have made it off to the taxiway before running off the end of the runway.  
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
own personal observation experience, there is a bit of poor technique among some JAL crews, particularly on the 777
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
So much better then making up some story about JALs training department and crew.

Not going to comment on JAL's training department and crew, but having flown JAL quite a bit, I have also experienced quite a bit of rough/side loaded landings with them (also on B777s). I believe this is coincidental, as I have no knowledge of the crew training, as well as what was going on in the cockpit/conditions.


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 30188 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
I know several JAL express pilots and former JAL captains who now work elsewhere overseas. All have at one time or another expressed concerns about training, particularly poor skills of younger pilots. I also spent 2 years in Japan training ATCs in English proficiency and heard boatloads of anecdotal references from them about the poor performance of JAL crews, particularly miscommunication.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
None of this is made up.
There's plenty more in the Japanese language press but a lot doesn't even make it to reporters since the government has shielded JAL from scrutiny since the 2005 flap.

Ok, I apologize for what I said. It just seemed in your post you had made this assumption based on watching videos and such, with no factual information. But now I see where you are coming from, so thanks for the info!  
Quoting je89_w (Reply 3):
In my opinion, the go around was definitely the right decision for that situation. I bet those people in the recent Tegucigalpa B733 thread would say that the pilots should have continued with the landing as he would have made it off to the taxiway before running off the end of the runway.

Agreed buddy, the Go-around was definitely necessary, and probably should been executed earlier, but this certainly could have ended a lot worse!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 30026 times:

Another reason why I favor NH,  

I know a handful of JAL pilots, of which I know are very experienced. It all depends on the situation most of the times. We all have our bad landings once in a while.

Tinosky~


User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 29896 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
I didn't want to re-title the video.

I didn't know you were Bluestar on Youtube. I subscribe to you!



Go big or go home
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 29817 times:

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 6):
I didn't know you were Bluestar on Youtube

LOL that's not me bud, but thanks  
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 4):
It just seemed in your post you had made this assumption based on watching videos and such, with no factual information

Understood, and can see how it would look that way from the initial post. Though if you look around I've kinda been slagging JAL for years now.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 26815 times:

Im not gonna play internet airline pilot here, but I will say in my experiences viewing youtube videos that landing looked down right scary. If you notice you see the spoilers on the wings going up and down several times as it lands, then takes off, then lands, then goes back up. What a mess. I wonder what happened.

James


User currently offlinecaleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 26815 times:
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Can't tell much from this video.

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 26610 times:

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 8):
If you notice you see the spoilers on the wings going up and down several times as it lands, then takes off, then lands, then goes back up.

That's normal, the spoilers are linked with the ailerons to create more of a rolling tendency at lower airspeeds.

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 9):
Can't tell much from this video.

Sums up the video pretty well IMO!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
Understood, and can see how it would look that way from the initial post. Though if you look around I've kinda been slagging JAL for years now.

Well..I didn't know that..lol! But now I do  



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 23161 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 10):
That's normal, the spoilers are linked with the ailerons to create more of a rolling tendency at lower airspeeds

Yes I know but in this case I dont think they are going up and down because of aileron input, but I think its because the aircraft literally keeps leaving the ground then touching back down and so on. Again, im not gonna sit here and be internet airline pilot, but it for sure is an interesting video to say the least. Like I said before I wonder what the heck happened here.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3607 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 22859 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
None of this is made up.

Well, it kind of is, because you've posted a couple of articles dating back five to six years, and then a couple of others that may or may not even be safety-related. (An article about "pilots feeling the pinch" on training is subjective and biased from the start.) I'm sure that with pretty much any large airline, you could find a few similarly damning articles somewhere over the course of six years.

Yes, I know JAL had some well publicized safety issues years ago. The key phrase being "years ago". The shelf life for continuing to bring up the same issues as if they're still relevant today passed a while ago. You may as well talk about AA's unsafe engine change procedures that damage pylons.

[Edited 2011-01-05 23:22:25]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21727 times:

That is a shocker of an attempted landing. I've had a couple like that, but as a low time private pilot.


B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlinebaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21616 times:

It would be seriously irresponsible to criticize the pilot who was attempting to land this aircraft. We don't know enough about the conditions to be able to evaluate what really occurred and given that it was also dark, what I did see was a difficult landing aborted.

The 773 is a L O N G bird. I recently read something about Boeing telling airlines to not use as much flair in landing the 773 and from what I could see in the video, it appeared (again, from my perspective) that he was getting some oscillations on the flair. WHY he was getting oscillations is the question and yes, it could be argued that if he was pulling back too much on the yoke and then forward again, then back, that could cause a pitch oscillation which on this aircraft could cause a tail strike. However, this would be wild speculation. You'd have to be in the cockpit to know what happened and we weren't.

I've seen worse landing attempts...but when he got in trouble, he did the right thing: He executed a go-around. Clearly he got the bird on the ground on the second try and as long as people and the aircraft were not banged up in the affair, then let's leave it to JAL to figure out what the pilot did (or did not do) that may have caused this event.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineSAS-A321 From Denmark, joined Mar 2002, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19888 times:

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 9):
Can't tell much from this video.

I agree. Could just be pilot induced occilations that makes it look like it is bouncing. Looks more like it is floating down the runway and the pilot is jerking the controls to give it the last to make contact. Also I don't see any smoke from a touchdown and you can hear the wind in the microphone. I suspect it was quite windy.

Have a look at this video: KAL 777-300 bouncy landing



It's Scandinavian
User currently offline767driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 16091 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Lots of carrying crab angle into the touchdown and side-loading of MLG to be seen.

The Boeing manual clearly states in strong crosswinds, it's not only acceptable, but recommended you touchdown crabbed. This is to avoid striking an engine with excessive bank in a sideslip situation. Proper landing technique may be uncomfortable to you as a passenger, but it beats the alternative.


User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15876 times:

I hope nothing happened to that rear pressure bulkhead    ; JAL already has experiences with bad landings that lead to one of the world's worst aviation disasters years later (and of course, faulty maintenance practices, on behalf of Boeing)...

[Edited 2011-01-06 06:25:23]

User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2267 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14357 times:

Doesnt look that bad to me. Windy, bounced, did a good job catching the bounce, floated, went around....I dont see the problem here?


"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinesuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14059 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
First off, I definitely do not see a porpoise anywhere in that video. From what I can tell, the nose wheel of the aircraft does not touch anywhere in that video. It looks to me like a hard bounce, followed by aft pressure on the stick, which caused the tail to strike and more bounces to occur. But what do I know, its a very dark video in which you can barely tell anything that happened.

I don't see a porpoise either. Like you said, bouncy, but no porpoising. I am just a private pilot, but at least in my landings, there is a BIG difference between bouncy and porpoising.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Porpoise is certainly the wrong term, but I didn't want to re-title the video.

You might want to re-title the video. It's not that hard.

Quoting je89_w (Reply 3):
the go around was definitely the right decision for that situation.

Yes it was. Bounce it one time, maybe two, apply back pressure - sure keep the attempt. But if you are bouncing more than twice, and you have lateral movement, just do a a go around. It was the right call.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 8):
Im not gonna play internet airline pilot here, but I will say in my experiences viewing youtube videos that landing looked down right scary. If you notice you see the spoilers on the wings going up and down several times as it lands, then takes off, then lands, then goes back up. What a mess. I wonder what happened.

It might have been scary. It might have been a mess. But it wasn't porpoising, and it wasn't a "near crash" either.

Quoting atct (Reply 18):
Doesnt look that bad to me. Windy, bounced, did a good job catching the bounce, floated, went around....I dont see the problem here?

Agreed.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13768 times:

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 19):
It might have been scary. It might have been a mess. But it wasn't porpoising, and it wasn't a "near crash" either.


Yeah I know, I never said anything about porpoising, and certainly never said anything about a "near crash". You put it in quotes so I dont know who your quoting. But anyway, its an interesting landing to say the least and maybe it looks worse than it is since the landing is being filmed from behind the aircraft. Same principle if your looking down a runway from a zoomed camera. You see every little incline and decline making the runway looks like a rollercoaster ride, but when viewed from the side looks level as can be. I bet this had some play in it!

James


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12050 times:

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 11):
Yes I know but in this case I dont think they are going up and down because of aileron input, but I think its because the aircraft literally keeps leaving the ground then touching back down and so on.

Well...what I was trying to say, is that the spoilers do not go up and down with every bounce of a landing. If they are fluctuating like that, then we are watching the roll spoilers, not the ground spoilers.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineGordomatic From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11829 times:

Quoting SAS-A321 (Reply 15):
Have a look at this video: KAL 777-300 bouncy landing

I can't say I have seen anything like this. KAL pilot didn't exactly grease it in...I counted 5-6 solid bounces after he touched the ground but he started while he was in the air at 0:08 or so. I love roller coasters, practicing stalls & the like - but as a PAX I think this would have scared the bejeebers out if me.

A Youtube viewer (of KAL video) correctly commented at 0:13-0:14 the wind sock is just sitting there; there was zero wind. If it was windy, ok but it was not in this case. I see plenty of ANA & JAL aircraft in the video - can anyone ID this airport? Is it Narita? Just wondering if it had a difficult approach.



We have clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11114 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 1):
First off, I definitely do not see a porpoise anywhere in that video

Agree, I see nose up bouncing.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Lucky to have saved the tail structure of the aircraft with what looks like just a minor impact of tailskid with the runway

Yeah, could have been worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9bo0jT1-o

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 21):
Well...what I was trying to say, is that the spoilers do not go up and down with every bounce of a landing. If they are fluctuating like that, then we are watching the roll spoilers, not the ground spoilers.

Kind of like this? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoK_dbLDfA0


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10734 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 12):
I'm sure that with pretty much any large airline, you could find a few similarly damning articles somewhere over the course of six years

Those linked articles are just a survey of what's available in English. There are many more in Japanese, not to mention continued incidents from 2007, 2008 and 2009 of JAL pilots departing without clearance and/or ignoring ATC in critical situations. Again, there's more I could share, but since I can't name names, kind of pointless to do so. All I know is what I've heard from Japanese ATCs who say the government helps JAL play CYA by keeping a lot of this stuff out of the press.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 12):
You may as well talk about AA's unsafe engine change procedures that damage pylons.

Oh give me a break - big difference between a continuing trend of events from 2005 and 1979  
Quoting 767driver (Reply 16):
The Boeing manual clearly states in strong crosswinds, it's not only acceptable, but recommended you touchdown crabbed.

Significant crosswinds are pretty rare at RJOO/ITM. You could look at a month of METAR reports from there and rarely find wind direction more than 10 degrees off runway heading. It's a heavily built up area surrounding the airport, with numerous factories, condo towers, highway interchanges, etc so there's substantial mechanical turbulence for sure, but not strong crosswinds.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 19):
You might want to re-title the video. It's not that hard.

Again, it's not my video.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 20):
But anyway, its an interesting landing to say the least and maybe it looks worse than it is since the landing is being filmed from behind the aircraft.

That's an interesting point worth noting.

Quoting Gordomatic (Reply 22):
A Youtube viewer (of KAL video) correctly commented at 0:13-0:14 the wind sock is just sitting there; there was zero wind. If it was windy, ok but it was not in this case. I see plenty of ANA & JAL aircraft in the video - can anyone ID this airport? Is it Narita?

Definitely Narita.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 Post contains images Tinosky : Correct, BUT, it's not impossible to have winds change directions without notice. I personally dont think we should be judging these pilots on lack o
26 413X3 : I see nothing wrong with the video, a typical overblown over-hyped over-exaggerated non-pilot cry of problems with what pilots do... And regarding th
27 Aaron747 : The record on JAL is a bit more complex than that, much as you'd like to play CYA for them. Just as you can claim a low-time C172 pilot such as mysel
28 413X3 : So maybe they are pushing through too many young pilots from their academies earlier than they should to try and save money? I've just never heard of
29 Aaron747 : A distinct possibility. I have no idea what thresholds they are using in terms of bringing people back from ab initio in the US, but they are assured
30 Tinosky : Funny how Japanese Airlines have some of the highest saftey ratings in the world right now, and your still nagging on about how *un-trained* they are
31 Aaron747 : I never said JAL hasn't had luck on their side. I'm sorry but I just don't think numerous incidents of ignoring ATC clearances constitutes "safe".
32 BuckFifty : Leaving a crab in during landing is certainly normal, especially for twins. In any crosswind over 10 kts on the 330, it's not recommended to fully dec
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