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Why So Little NYC-YYC/YVR?  
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1388 posts, RR: 9
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8567 times:

I am surprised at how little nonstop service there is from NYC to two of Canada's biggest cities - Calgary and Vancouver. YYC especially is a boomtown, with the fastest growing economy in Canada. Yes, I know it's largely energy-driven, but so is Houston, and there's obviously a lot more than just energy in both cities. Shouldn't YYC merit more service to NYC than a single daily AC E190 to EWR?

And YVR too - just one AC A319, as well as the CX stopover from HKG to JFK. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a suspicion that the JFK-YVR segment has far more people flying to/from HKG. And YVR has a huge native Hong Kong population, which makes the YVR stop en route to JFK more understandable.

When you compare YVR to say, PDX - a smaller city with a smaller business community than YVR, that has far more service to NYC - the lack of YVR-NYC service is surprising. As an NY resident, I also know many people from here who ski at Whistler, so there's good tourist traffic, albeit seasonal. And the Olympics certainly helped build YVR's buzz too. So I'm at a bit of a loss. Thoughts?

[Edited 2011-01-05 20:46:17]

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8503 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
But with YVR's huge Hong Kong population, I have a feeling that that flight exists more to serve HKG-YVR than YVR-JFK, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, the large amount of HKG-YVR traffic is what allows this flight to cater to YVR-JFK local traffic. If the flight was filled to the brim with people flying HKG-JFK, then there would be no real point in stopping at YVR (aside from cargo considerations). If it were intended to fly people HKG-YVR only, then they would convert the flight to a YVR terminator.

To your larger point, though, you have to keep in mind two factors - the relative size of Calgary and Vancouver compared to other large cities and their proximity to the US border. While YYC and YVR serve two of the largest cities in Canada, keep in mind that they are still both serving metro areas similar in population to Cincinnati (Vancouver) and Albany (Calgary). Now, that is not to say they generate traffic like those places - Canadians tend to travel more and both cities have far more international ties, not to mention they also sit more isolated relative to other Canadian population centers.

The bigger issue (particularly with Vancouver) is how close they are to the border, making it typically cheaper to drive into the USA to fly to a destination in the USA rather than paying the much higher fare to fly transborder. Combine that with the fact that they are both relatively distant from New York and have stronger economic ties to other cities (see YYC-IAH, for example) and there probably isn't an overwhelming demand for seats to New York.


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8482 times:

Actually, WestJet also flies to EWR during the spring/summer from YYC.

The demand is there, but who other than AC is going to offer the flights? CO used to fly to YVR and YYC during the summer, but there's a lot competition on the way to NYC.

Besides, if most people would rather fly to LGA, nonstop will never be offered given the perimeter rule out of YYC or YVR.

Add on top of this that AC offers so many frequencies into LGA from YYZ, YUL and YOW and they are all easily accessible from YYC, YVR and YEG for that matter.

I could be wrong, but I think AC's service from YYC and YVR to JFK a couple years back wasn't very successful and they made the switch to EWR (someone cn provide a better explanation here)


User currently offlineRJLover From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8466 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 2):
Add on top of this that AC offers so many frequencies into LGA from YYZ, YUL and YOW and they are all easily accessible from YYC, YVR and YEG for that matter.

Bingo! But don't forget EWR! While it doesn't have as high a frequency as LGA, it isn't exactly one flight a day.



Last Flight(s): YHZ-YUL-YOW-YWG-YVR // YVR-YYZ // YYZ-YUL-YHZ
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1388 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8433 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 1):
To your larger point, though, you have to keep in mind two factors - the relative size of Calgary and Vancouver compared to other large cities and their proximity to the US border. While YYC and YVR serve two of the largest cities in Canada, keep in mind that they are still both serving metro areas similar in population to Cincinnati (Vancouver) and Albany (Calgary).

I appreciate your point. But when you consider that a city as "small" as YYC can still support two daily flights to LHR (an AC A330 and a BA 767), it amazes me that it can't support more than one Embraer to EWR.


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 4):
I appreciate your point. But when you consider that a city as "small" as YYC can still support two daily flights to LHR (an AC A330 and a BA 767), it amazes me that it can't support more than one Embraer to EWR.

I agree...it makes no sense to could compare Calgary to Albany...They might have a similar population base, but Calgary has the second highest concentration of Canadian Head offices and yes..there's a lot of international business and leisure travel. Plus Calgary is an Air Canada hub and serves as a transit point to many other cities in Western Canada (YEG which has a similar size to Calgary funnels a lot of pax day in and day out through YYC)

Plus, YYC is the gateway to the Canadian Rockies and you tend to see a lot of avid skiers travelling to YYC from all over Europe.

So going back to your point about NYC, the only additional service you will see is to EWR given CO's new identity.

I would wait until Air Canada and United have finalized their Cross-Border Joint Venture...YOu are going to see a lot of new flights and many new routes opened up...More service to NYC from Western Canada might just be in the cards


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 4):
I appreciate your point. But when you consider that a city as "small" as YYC can still support two daily flights to LHR (an AC A330 and a BA 767), it amazes me that it can't support more than one Embraer to EWR.

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 5):
I agree...it makes no sense to could compare Calgary to Albany...They might have a similar population base, but Calgary has the second highest concentration of Canadian Head offices and yes..there's a lot of international business and leisure travel.

In fairness, I explicitly stated that they were similar in population but not travel demand. I'm well aware of the vibrant economy, particularly the oil boom in Calgary, that makes these cities punch above their weight relative to similar sized cities in the USA.

I didn't explicitly mention the competition non-stops face from dozens of strong connecting opportunities between western Canada and New York, but that's obviously another key factor. A few more non-stops could probably be filled, but is the incremental benefit that strong? If AC adds more non-stops to feed their YYC hub, a decent portion of the traffic is likely to be people who fly EWR-YYC-YEG/YMM/et al, most of whom AC was probably already capturing via YYZ instead. Even those terminating in YYC were likely on AC either way, so there's not a huge incentive.

[Edited 2011-01-05 22:28:08]

User currently offlinekdonohue From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

This is a good question...Harmony Airways tried JFK, but I don't think they were too successful before eventually ceasing operations (not that the New York service caused their demise).

There are few non-stops to most cities in the eastern US, though there are some seasonal fligths catering to the cruise traffic in the summer. As others have commented there are plenty of one-stop services available, albeit not as convenient.

I have flown Cathay between JFK and YVR.

K


User currently onlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8023 times:
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Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 5):
I agree...it makes no sense to could compare Calgary to Albany...They might have a similar population base, but Calgary has the second highest concentration of Canadian Head offices and yes..there's a lot of international business and leisure travel. Plus Calgary is an Air Canada hub and serves as a transit point to many other cities in Western Canada

Calgary is actually the 5th largest metropolitan area in Canada (Vancouver is 3rd) population wise, but it incorporates a huge hunk of square mileage -- in square mileage, Calgary is actually *larger* than Vancouver.

Edmonton a few mile north of Calgary, is the 6th largest metropolitan area in Canada -- which is another piece of the puzzle.

Btw, Calgary is also the entrance to Banff National Park / ski area which no one has yet mentioned.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3633 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7618 times:

There are not more services from NYC to Canada (all airports) because of the ridiculously high landing fees at Canadian airports!

JetBlue would be a logical choice to YUL, YYZ, and YVR.

But they serve BUF, BTV, and SEA. In the case of BUF and BTV, they have high frequency mainline service to JFK to accomodate Canadians crossing the border and catching a cheaper flight.

Canada is killing themselves with these fees.

As for the low frequency . . . when there is no chance of competition because of the above, why should Air Canada fly anything bigger or with more frequency and dilute their profits?


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7585 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
There are not more services from NYC to Canada (all airports) because of the ridiculously high landing fees at Canadian airports!

JetBlue would be a logical choice to YUL, YYZ, and YVR.

But they serve BUF, BTV, and SEA. In the case of BUF and BTV, they have high frequency mainline service to JFK to accomodate Canadians crossing the border and catching a cheaper flight.

Canada is killing themselves with these fees.

As for the low frequency . . . when there is no chance of competition because of the above, why should Air Canada fly anything bigger or with more frequency and dilute their profits?

And nothing will change....A recent report that was published and presented to the Canadian government highlighted the ridiculous amount of pax leakage, but no avail.....The gov has no interest in changing its airport fee structure.

bottom line, high fares are here to stay!!!


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

I always have found in interesting that AC flies Newark to Calgary and Vancouver using the E190s. AC has a nice underrated profile at EWR.


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently onlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6830 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
When you compare YVR to say, PDX - a smaller city with a smaller business community than YVR, that has far more service to NYC - the lack of YVR-NYC service is surprising.

It isn't all that surprising. While NYC is one of the world's most (if not the most) important business centers, the international border does matter. YVR's business ties will naturally be far stronger to YYZ and YUL, just as PDX's would be to NYC. Airline market shares and hub patterns also come into play; relatively few New Yorkers would connect in YVR to the Pacific Rim, while few Vancouverites would connect at EWR or JFK to Europe or even U.S. East Coast cities if there are connections available at YYZ or YUL. NYC-YVR/YYC flights would have to rely almost entirely on O&D traffic.


User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7387 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Thread starter):
When you compare YVR to say, PDX - a smaller city with a smaller business community than YVR, that has far more service to NYC - the lack of YVR-NYC service is surprising.

Two of the non-stop flights from PDX to New York are timed for connections with onward flights to Europe: Delta's early morning service from PDX to JFK and Continental's early morning PDX-EWR flight. Aside from that, there are only two non-stops from PDX to New York, a Jet Blue red-eye to JFK and a Continental red-eye to Newark. So, in fact, the market for PDX-New York non-stops actually is fairly small once you leave out flights that are designed for onward connections to Europe.


User currently offlinejpyvr From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned CO and their seasonal summer service EWR-YVR. I'm not sure exactly when it began, but it's been a part of CO's YVR services for quite a few years. Along with many other USA-YVR flights, it's strongly tied to cruise ship traffic, thus its seasonal nature and its timing which allows same-day flight/embarkation/deembarkation.

For summer 2011, they'll be using 737-800 and the following schedule...

CO 342 EWR 0700 YVR 1038
CO 343 YVR 1240 EWR 2059


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 11):
I always have found in interesting that AC flies Newark to Calgary and Vancouver using the E190s. AC has a nice underrated profile at EWR.

i thought AC's EWR-YVR is on A319 (and probably same equipment for YYC)

can E190 make the flight at all (with normal pax loads) ?


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 15):

You are correct. I was thinking of Calgary.

Quoting jpyvr (Reply 14):
I'm surprised no one has mentioned CO and their seasonal summer service EWR-YVR.

Rather insignificant compared to AC. I wouldn't be surprised if CO/UA drops this route in favor of pushing AC's daily year round service.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently onlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7084 times:
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Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
Rather insignificant compared to AC. I wouldn't be surprised if CO/UA drops this route in favor of pushing AC's daily year round service.
AC's long-time Star Alliance partner -- United Airlines -- flies to YEG, YQR, YXE, YYC, YVR, and YWG from ORD - and to YEG, YYC and YVR from both DEN and SFO. DEN and SFO service varies from CR2s to 319s on what *seems* like caprice. Most UA flights to Canada carry an AC codeshare number and appear as "partner" flights on the AC web site.

[Edited 2011-01-06 11:00:32]

User currently offlinephatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7073 times:

YVR & YYC tend to see more service to the western portions of the US than the eastern portions. Snowbirds from these cities are more apt to go to SAN or PHX than MIA.

User currently offlinenycdave From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6969 times:

Well, I can certainly speak as to NYC-YVR -- It's usually over $200 cheaper to fly into SEA and then drive or take the train, bus, car, or even ferry up to Vancouver. Seriously, those fees are absurd.

I believe CO has pretty good frequency from its IAH hub to YYC and YVR, and especially with the energy and pac rim business links in those two cities, it probably makes more sense to them. I don't get the feeling that there's a huge demand for NY-based businesses to have the sort of connections to YVR and YYC that'd make higher-density direct connections viable. I'd certainly love to see it happen, though!

Also, you have to think about the huge amount of connectivity between NYC and YYZ and YUL -- LOTS of flights to NYC airports every day. A lot of the traffic probably just connects through. Especially for tourism traffic, that's not much of a penalty. Also, the big volume/schedule between NYC/YYZ/YUL and between YUL/YYZ and YYC/YVR makes scheduling a lot more flexible, unless you upped direct flights to something like 5 or 6x daily.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Quoting nycdave (Reply 19):
Also, the big volume/schedule between NYC/YYZ/YUL and between YUL/YYZ and YYC/YVR makes scheduling a lot more flexible, unless you upped direct flights to something like 5 or 6x daily.

except it's a major annoyance with customs

NYC-YYZ-YVR, you need to clear CA immigration and customs at YYZ, recheck bags, then reclaim bags at YVR (if you have any checked in)

YVR-YYZ-NYC, you need to claim bags at YYZ, then pre-clear US immigration and customs, then reclaim bags in NYC

now compare that to NYC - some_other_point_in_USA - YVR, everything can be performed at the Canadian side

any sort of NYC-YYZ-YVR need at least 1.5 hour transit time with no checked bags, and 2.5 hrs with checked bags just to be safe


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6932 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
AC's long-time Star Alliance partner -- United Airlines -- flies to YEG, YQR, YXE, YYC, YVR, and YWG from ORD - and to YEG, YYC and YVR from both DEN and SFO. DEN and SFO service varies from CR2s to 319s on what *seems* like caprice. Most UA flights to Canada carry an AC codeshare number and appear as "partner" flights on the AC web site.

Yes but this is a CO operated 738 seasonal flight. CO's brand in Canada was never nearly as strong as legacy UA or UAEX.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently onlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6932 times:
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Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 18):
Snowbirds from these cities are more apt to go to SAN or PHX than MIA.

But then Canadians seem to prefer TPA to MIA -- to which both AC and WS (as well as C6 and WG) have ample service.


User currently onlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6913 times:
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Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 21):
Yes but this is a CO operated 738 seasonal flight

Yes, a long, long, long 738 flight -- I've flown it.  


User currently offlinejpyvr From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6838 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Yes, a long, long, long 738 flight -- I've flown it.

I've flown it too, and it is very long. But I've also flown EWR-SEA on the same type of plane and with the same airline in the winter when the winds are howling out of the west, and it's even LONGER!


25 connies4ever : UAX also does DEN-YWG with CR7s.
26 TOMMY767 : It can't be any worse than EWR-SFO right?
27 AirNovaBAe146 : Interesting schedule. It would appear if they'd push it back to say an 0900 departure, they would be able to capture some inbound AM EWR traffic from
28 kgaiflyer : Well, this year was bad all over -- winter winds are relentless this winter. For instance, I flew IAD-SFO November 24th at 6 hours 5 minutes. That da
29 yegbey01 : I remember a few years ago talks that UAL wanted to offer service from IAD to YYC and YEG in addition to their YVR short lived service.
30 Viscount724 : Not if you use CX YVR-JFK. They don't use preclearance and YVR-JFK passengers have to clear US immigration/custonms on arrival at JFK along with HKG-
31 YULWinterSkies : Heard of CO, Star Alliance member? Seeing how busy and growing many Canadian airports are will probably prove you wrong. Plus, the time to drive thro
32 DavidByrne : I still hold out hope that NZ will extend its AKL-YVR service to JFK - it's unlikely that JFK will be served nonstop from AKL, even with the 789. But
33 YVRLTN : They still do in summer, and will again this summer (to YVR - dont know about YYC). So that is a daily CO 738 and AC 319 YVR - EWR + the CX 77W to JF
34 USAirALB : I took that flight three years back. That was one long flight on a 738.
35 IrishAyes : Anyone have any idea how such a bizarre route as MEM-YVR has lasted all of these years???
36 Viscount724 : Where do you find that service? Can't find anything except connections in schedules.
37 yegbey01 : Weekends during the summer, YVR-MEM has been operated by NW and DL now
38 Viscount724 : Checked every day of the week in mid-July and no direct flights shown.
39 mogandoCI : that's one of the rare exceptions - i dunno how MNL-YVR-LAS works but to extend your point, even YVR-originated traffic clears immigration at JFK
40 Viscount724 : Same as CX. No preclearance. That's exactly what I was pointing out in my post.
41 kgaiflyer : Pre-merger, Northwest Airlines used to do MEM-YVR every summer -- it had something to do with cruise ships.
42 YVRLTN : Doesnt seem to be loaded for this year. Used to be Saturday only I think and was Alaska cruiseship related. I always thought it strange, in summer on
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