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What New Tatl And Tpac Routes Will The 787 Create?  
User currently offlineIrishpower From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 386 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8908 times:

I think this has been discussed but not for a while.

Once the 787 finally gets into service what NEW Tatl and Tpac flights do you think will be created? I know CO/UA has announced some new flights out of IAH but what about all the other customers?

One of the ways Boeing has marketed the 787 for long/thin routes is that new international city pairs would be created that normally wouldn't be possible with todays larger and more expensive a/c.

So what are some really good new services that the 787 will open up?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8841 times:

Quite a difficult question to answer, but from my neck of the woods MAN - SFO or MAN - LAX would be nice. However, there's no reason why a 767 couldn't do these flights today, but evidently they can't profitably.

User currently offlineIrishpower From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8232 times:

What about flights between Asia (ICN, HND, NRT, HKG) and US airports like LAS, SAN, PHX, DEN and SJC?

Not to mention SYD or AKL and DEN, DFW, SEA etc...


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8211 times:

MEL-SFO (QF/COUnited)
MEL-LAX (CONited - assuming they drop their SYD-MEL-SYD tags with larger aircraft).
MEL-YVR (AC)
MEL-LAS/SYD-LAS (JQ/QF)
SYD-SFO (remove 747 and go daily 787)
BNE-YVR (AC - assuming the AU-CA bilateral is updated)
BNE-SFO (QF)
BNE-LAX (QF changed from 747)
SYD-DFW (QF)
SYD-SEA/SYD-PDX (QF - a very very long-shot)

$0.02.

[Edited 2011-01-07 04:35:58]

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Quoting Irishpower (Thread starter):
One of the ways Boeing has marketed the 787 for long/thin routes is that new international city pairs would be created that normally wouldn't be possible with todays larger and more expensive a/c.

Actually, there isn't much the 787-8 can do, what the 330-200 cannot do. Of course, the 788 will likely be slightly more fuel efficient and will have a slightly better payload / range curve than the 332. And there might be a few routes are there that are slightly loss-making with the 332, and could be just profitable with the 788. But for airlines already operating the 332 (DL, AB, UX), the 787-8 won't open lots of opportunities.

For airlines who now rely on the 763, the 788 is a bigger step up and it might open some opportunities and we might see some news here.

I don't expect many airlines to operate the 788 on very long routes. The market for > 7,000nm flights is just very small.

We'll probably see the 787 appear on many routes now flown with 763 and 772.


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 4):
Actually, there isn't much the 787-8 can do, what the 330-200 cannot do

I think you will find that a 332 cannot fly from the East coast of Australia to the West Coast of North America in both directions year-round - (assuming the specs Boeing sold the aircraft come into fruition):

788: 7650-8200NM
789: 8000-8500NM
332: 6400nm

GC routes:
BNE-SFO 6138nm
BNE-LAX 6223nm
SYD-SFO 6445nm
SYD-LAX 6507nm
MEL-SFO 6826nm
MEL-LAX 6883nm
AKL-LAX 5652nm (QF fly a 332 on this route)


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

I doubt we will see many really new routes TATL. The 788 cannot do anything that neither 763 nor A332 can do TATL - it just has a few $ advantage on the fuel bill.

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8054 times:

Boston-Asia (anywhere, pretty much) would be extremely likely. I would be rather dismayed if the plane instead went on JFK routes that are already well-served by other aircraft. Boston-Asia represents the 'long-and-thin' type of market that the 787 was presumably made for. There isn't anything over the Atlantic from Boston that would make much sense, aside from maybe the Middle East. But I think demand is much greater from Boston to Asian markets than to anywhere in the Middle East.

User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 7):
Boston-Asia (anywhere, pretty much)

BOS-NRT on ANA, please. Pretty please!!


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5841 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
I doubt we will see many really new routes TATL. The 788 cannot do anything that neither 763 nor A332 can do TATL - it just has a few $ advantage on the fuel bill.

  

The only new routes the 788 will really open up are routes that are just outside the A332's effective range.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 8):
BOS-NRT

and SEA-HKG are two that come immediately to mind, but I'm sure you can all imagine many more.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Quoting dfambro (Reply 8):
BOS-NRT on ANA, please. Pretty please!!

If I were a betting person--and I'm not--this would be my pick, too. Both the destination and the airline...mostly because ANA will be one of the first carriers flying the plane, and because I've long felt that the first airline to serve a Boston-Asia route (not counting Korean's 744s several years ago) would be a foreign flag carrier...not one of our own. It saddens me to predict that, but it's what I feel will happen. Our own flag carriers are still in too much disarray to launch a route from Boston to Asia. They are all way too heavily invested in JFK to consider a smaller city 200 miles to the north of New York. But ANA (or even JAL) does see the value of serving Boston nonstop rather than 'forcing' passengers through JFK. Enough people would pay good money to avoid that interim stop.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 4):
Actually, there isn't much the 787-8 can do, what the 330-200 cannot do. Of course, the 788 will likely be slightly more fuel efficient and will have a slightly better payload / range curve than the 332. And there might be a few routes are there that are slightly loss-making with the 332, and could be just profitable with the 788. But for airlines already operating the 332 (DL, AB, UX), the 787-8 won't open lots of opportunities.

He?! you work for an airline? This is a.net!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
The only new routes the 788 will really open up are routes that are just outside the A332's effective range.

Or the long thin routes 1993 A340..

I concluded the same during the high of the Dreamliner hype, 5 years ago .

"Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer "
Oops wrong timing.. however in reality aircraft fill in network requirements, not the other way around..

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/2664716/


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7647 times:

with the 788 / 789, maybe new UA/CO can finally relaunch LAX-HKG and also do ORD-ICN and even ORD-SIN on the 789

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6535 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7619 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 10):
Our own flag carriers are still in too much disarray to launch a route from Boston to Asia. They

What disarray are you speaking about that would prevent either UA/CO or DL from starting such a flight. Neither probably will do it, but it won't be because of disarray.


User currently offlineyeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 890 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7596 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 4):
I don't expect many airlines to operate the 788 on very long routes. The market for > 7,000nm flights is just very small.

I'm cataloging (with lots of help) all nonstop pax flights above the 6000 nm mile mark and there are, so far, 50+ currently flying. Only nine flights are 7000 nm or greater.

My point is I think you've set the bar too high in defining the usefulness of the 788.

Setting aside any new city combinations one could think of, take a look at the city pairs on the link below and see if you don't think you're understating the potential here a bit.

World's 20 Longest (by yeogeo Dec 11 2010 in Aviation Polls)

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
I doubt we will see many really new routes TATL.

Trans-Atlantic (Europe-N. America anyway) is not where the action is in the 6000 nm ranges anyway, so, for the 787, I suspect you're correct!

yeo



One great use of words is to hide our thoughts. Voltaire
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5841 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7473 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 11):
Or the long thin routes 1993 A340..

A 787 is so much less expensive to operate than an original A340 that it's only natural it would open up additional route opportunities. There's a reason the A332 sold hundreds of copies where the A342 attracted virtually no interest, and the 787 just builds on that difference.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7383 times:

Some 788 routes that I would like to see:

DFW-SYD on QF

ADD-JFK on ET

NBO-JFK/ATL on KQ

BOS-NRT on NH

ICN-MSP on KE

SFO-BLR on UA

EWR-BLR/MAA/HYD on UA

ORD-BOM on AI

LAX/SFO-Secondary China on UA/CZ



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5603 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7323 times:

To some of us in the OTHER city in Southern California, San Diego is the poster child for the Dreamliner! Not necessarily because of light markets or thin traffic volume (once routes are opened up from Lindbergh Field we will finally see how many LAX-boardings actually become SAN-pax) but more of an operational issue due to airport-surrounding terrain which we hope the 787 will "fix".

For example, BA is re-starting SAN-LHR in June using a T7 but has already indicated that the route will undoubtedly become a 787-route once the plane enters their fleet. The new a/c is expected to eliminate most payload (read: cargo) limitations that current wide-body a/c see when flying intercontinentally out of Lindbergh (due to the climb rate required by the Pt Loma "hills" just off the end of runway 27.)

The hope is that Asia, more Europe, and South America will finally be available as nonstop destinations from San Diego once the 787 is available for such flying. The markets are there, the limitations of our airport remain the problem.

bb


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5841 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7258 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
DFW-SYD on QF
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
ADD-JFK on ET
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
SFO-BLR on UA

Too long (or, in the case of ADD-JFK, too hot and high). The 787-8 is not a ULH airplane, folks. With a full passenger payload, it will have about the same useful range as a 77E. The 787-9 should give airlines a few hundred extra nm, but it's no replacement for a 77L -- which is really what's needed to fly these very demanding routes.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
NBO-JFK/ATL on KQ
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
EWR-BLR/MAA/HYD on UA
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
ORD-BOM on AI

These are borderline, just like they'd be borderline for any non-LR 777, but possible.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
BOS-NRT on NH
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
ICN-MSP on KE
Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
LAX/SFO-Secondary China on UA/CZ

   All believable, especially if the economy picks up.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7234 times:

New routes would be really difficult to speculate on because at first, new aircraft with new premium seating would mostly be placed on flagship routes to places like LHR and NRT from main hubs. There would only be a very few new long/thin routes like IAH-AKL. After the buzz has worn off and enough aircraft have been delivered then they will start to look a new routes but the first priority will be to fatten profits on existing 767/A330 routes.

The hopes of many that they will get international flights to everywhere from their second or third tier city will probably never be realized.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7098 times:

BA has previously said there are about 5 or so new (or more likely, previously served) TATL routes that could become viable with the 787. As already said, SAN is likely to go to a 787.

User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1644 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6986 times:

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 2):
What about flights between Asia (ICN, HND, NRT, HKG) and US airports like LAS, SAN, PHX, DEN and SJC?

Isn't one of the first routes for the NH 787 NRT-DEN?



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 3):
BNE-YVR (AC - assuming the AU-CA bilateral is updated)

The Canada-Australia bilateral permits Canadian carriers to serve SYD and one other point in Australia of their choice. The same applies for Australian carries serving Canada which can serve YVR and one other point. There's no reason the 2nd point couldn't be BNE, and NE was served by Canada 3000 for a while in addition to SYD duiring their brief period of Canada-Australia service before they went bust.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6449 times:

MEX-FCO perhaps? AM is going to receive 788s at some point. This might be something they will launch after they do.

How about MEX-NRT nonstop if AM ever goes for the 789?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

This will hopefully be a boon for BOS, as our non-hub status has kept some routes that may have been profitable otherwise. BOS-NRT, ICN, and PEK will be good ones for TPAC. For TATL, some Eastern European or Middle Eastern markets may work as well.


2013 World Series Champions!
25 tayser : If MEL is the 2nd taken up by AC (as has previously been mooted) then there's going to have to be change with regards to the agreement - AC's CEO at
26 ChrisNH : The disarray I speak of is financial. These airlines simply don't have the appetite to hire enough people to staff flights like this, and it is why t
27 jetfuel : CNS-LAX and/or OOL-LAX
28 COEWR787 : While some of these are borderline possible with the -8, I would expect these to happen using -9s. I would also expect AI to get in the SFO-BLR route
29 vhqpa : Some potential JQ 787 destinations SYD-SIN/BKK-FCO MEL-SIN/BKK-ATH OOL--SIN/BKK-BEY SYD-CTS SYD/OOL/CNS-FUK OOL/CNS-ICN SYD/OOL-PEK OOL/SYD-PVG SYD/BN
30 gemuser : NOT happening! Anything beyond SIN/BKK will be Jetstar Asia/Pacific not JQ! Of course things do change but don't hold your breath. Possible, I'd gues
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