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DL Longhaul Fleet Utilization  
User currently offlineIcelandairMSP From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 123 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

Now that it's such a large airline, DL seemly continues to pull more and more longhaul routes out of thin air. I know there's a very detailed census of all of DL's aircraft out there (which I can't find the link for but would be curious if someone passed it along), but is there a site or spreadsheet that tracks the longhaul fleet utilization? Or at least tracks what routes use what aircraft, how many aircraft that route requires, and how that shakes down with an overall availability of aircraft?

I ask this because there is always talk of DL expanding internationally and then doubts are expressed about the availability of aircraft. But these doubts seem to arise more out of the sheer number of routes versus number of aircraft and an inability for one person to casually track fleet utilization the way you could with NW. It would be nice to know a resource to refer to when these rumors arise.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9163 times:

You could use published schedules to try to back into some numbers but definitive data is not publicly disseminated.

When you look at DL's international network today as compared to what it looked like in 2004 or 2005, the key differences are redeployment of widebodies from domestic to international, pulldown of domestic narrowbody flying and redeployment of those aircraft to Mexico/Caribbean/Central America, and more efficient use of aircraft, e.g., flying a 777 to TLV or PVG instead of LGW or CDG, and arranging aircraft routings to minimize ground time wherever possible, for example LAXSYDLAX being a turn rather than a long sit in SYD.

Most of the growth has been funded with aircraft already in the fleet. DL really picked most of the low hanging fruit in the period from 2005 to 2009 and I don't think the network adds now are quite as dramatic as some of the previous schedules that really were the result of some fundamental changes to DL's business model.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9131 times:

I can't give you a detailed link to specifics -- the site you're thinking of went off the air last year.

But, in general, there's still a bit of room for international expansion. The latest schedules show the 764 and A332 fleets pushed pretty much to the limit, but other international fleets have a bit more breathing room, particularly the 75E/75A, A333, and 744 fleets.


User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9114 times:

Yes, I've done some analysis based on the published schedules, and there is also lots of room in the 76ER fleet.

There is also been lots of efficiency gains in aircraft routing

ex ATL-TLV-ATL-DTW-ICN-DTW-ATL-LOS-ATL etc.

this is a new way of thinking that has allowed tremendous optimization.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
other international fleets have a bit more breathing room, particularly the 75E/75A, A333, and 744 fleets

I don't know about the 744s once the HND routes start... There certainly won't be as much slack as there is now.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8582 times:

A few years back I made a full NW wide-body fleet utilization map. I could update it with DL. It takes time.

Under NW each route came to about 1.5~2 aircraft. With the use of AMS and NRT as hubs for rotating aircraft.
I followed an aircraft for one month using flight tracker and NW's website (lots of inference as well.) The 744 went DTW-NGO-MNL-NRT-MSP-NRT-LAX-NRT-HKG-NRT-MNL-NGO-DTW or something like that. They would fly it long-haul, then regional, then long-haul and then regional again.

The real interesting area was the A330s which right before the merger got rotated at NRT, SEA, AMS, DTW, and MSP.

Today with the combined use of 744s, 772ER, 772LR, 767-200, 767-400 and 757s running international with some repositioning on domestic routes (DTW-ATL and ATL-JFK) it would be hard to determine exactly.

Such research, based on experience takes up to a month or more. I used a combination of spreadsheet and presentation software. I then employed airfleets.net, flight tracking websites, airline websites and airport travel information to gather raw data. I used the spreadsheet (numbers) to sort data and then the presentation (keynote) to visualize it.

Under NW there were only a few international hubs/ports and few wide-body domestic runs (only MSP-HNL was an A330). Under DL you have many international ports that include wide-body aircraft rotation.

If I can find the original files, I will post them so you can use them for yourself and maybe update them.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCessna172RG From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

Would be nice to get some DL service from the West Coast to FUK. They had it before, would be AWESOME (sorry about the caps, admins...) and I can't overemphasize this route...Fukuoka has a lot of us "westerners" and it's so much of a hassle to fly into Narita and can be more expensive to use Kansai where the domestic connections are not nearly as comprehensive as Itami (domestic Osaka airport).

Delta folks, if you read this, how about SEA, SFO, or LAX to FUK? Even SLC? Something on the west coast to FUK? Anything, please...even a small domestic shuffle from NRT would be appreciated...get to Fukuoka, get there soon, and make a route. People will fly it! I'll use it at least three times a year myself...and I'd pay more to do it. Anything to avoid the whole inconvenience of changing between airports in Tokyo...please?!?!?!?!



Save the whales...for dinner!!!
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6434 times:

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 6):
FUK

It is one of the largest cities and growing. I don't think a non-stop will happen till they have enough of the right-sized aircraft to make it work. If DL were to serve FUK from the US, I think it would be HNL-FUK with a 767. JL has cut back these routes and there is demand so it can be filled by DL.

In the interim, a 757 connecting would be good but it then has to go someplace else ie. NRT-FUK-XXX. I don't think they can just do NRT-FUK. They have to go to another non-Japan destination. NRT-NGO goes on to SPN. NRT-KIX goes on to SPN or GUM I think.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinemayhem From Belgium, joined Feb 2006, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

One of the reasons why they were able to increase their fleet utilization is that they relaxed their hub-spoke strategy arrival and departure banks. By less fixing all planes to arrive and depart at one time, you have much less ground time, thus more utilization and lower costs.

This transformation was called Operation Clockwork, and one of the key changes at DL. You can read a detailed report here: http://atwonline.com/whitepapers/del...sforming-fundamentals-airline-0215


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5861 times:
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Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):

I don't know about the 744s once the HND routes start... There certainly won't be as much slack as there is now.

I don't think we'll see the 744 flying into HND for long. I feel LAX-HND will be downgauged to a 763ER, especially looking at the departure and arrival times. Further, DL has a huge base @ NRT where the majority of their customers transfer to many other far east destinations. I'm interested to know how NH is doing in this market now compared to their LAX-NRT flight.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5644 times:

One thing that sticks out to me about DL fleet utilization is that they seem to be short on 764/A332-sized aircraft. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but it really seems like those 787-8s they deferred (which would be in exactly the same size range) would have been very helpful to the airline.

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 6):
Fukuoka has a lot of us "westerners" and it's so much of a hassle to fly into Narita and can be more expensive to use Kansai where the domestic connections are not nearly as comprehensive as Itami (domestic Osaka airport).

It seems like the HND flying ought to help with this, by preventing you from having to switch airports in Tokyo.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 6):
Would be nice to get some DL service from the West Coast to FUK

If it happened I think it would be from SEA with a 767-300ER. Almost certainly less than daily. But they would have the market to themselves, and they could offer connections on AS to probably every major US city with significant O&D to FUK.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
I don't think we'll see the 744 flying into HND for long

Well, their DOT application was specifically for 744 service, and that's possibly why they were awarded two out of the four available slots. So would they be able to simply downgauge to a 332 or 777 like they could on any other route?



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4865 times:

Okay I did a little work over the last 5 days.

The following data is based on using the DL schedule for Jan-Feb.
It just lays in the flights using A332, A333, 767-300, 767-400, 772E, 772L and 744.
I noted every flight. That means that flight is one-way. RT would be just be divided by 2.

1) All flights were counted individually (one way)
2) Some routes change between 777 types per week. SIN is 5x with a 77L and 2x with 77E
3) Some routes are assigned as just "767". Thus it could be a 767-400 or a 767-300. Larger chance is -300
4) not all flights are daily
5) This is not 100% accurate as there is a ton of data and the schedule is not always clear
6) This does not clearly show how DL effectively uses their wide body fleet. But it does show that almost every aircraft is accounted for.

If I can find a good way to post the raw data, I will. I would love to have someone else look at it.

DL Widebody fleet
71 767-300
21 767-400
16 747-400
8 777-200E
10 777-200LR
11 A330-200
21 A330-300

Airbus A330 Series
32 Aircraft in Fleet
11 A330-200
21 A330-300

48 A330 series flights
- 28 A333
- 19 A332

A330s seem to be getting rotated at ATL, DTW, SEA, AMS, NRT, HNL
A330-300 are also used domestically on MSP-HNL-MSP and ATL-HNL-ATL. From there they rotate to NRT or KIX. At NRT they can be rotated back to HNL or off to Asia or SEA. All other A330s fly international and are rotated at the HUB or international port.

Boeing 767 Series
92 Aircraft in fleet
71 767-300
21 767-400

140 767 series flights
- 112 767-300 flights
- 28 767-400 flights

29 domestic 767-300 flights
13 East or south bound domestic flights
16 West or North bound domestic flights

88 international 767-300 flights
6 RT flights to South America (12 flights)
7 RT flights to Asia (14 flights)
1 RT flight within Asia (NRT-GUM) (2 flights)
24 RT flights to Europe (48 flights)
5 RT flights to the Middle East and Africa (10 flights)
1 RT flight within Africa (ACC-ROB*) (2 flights)

Rotation happens at JFK, ATL, SLC, NRT, HNL, SEA, MSP, DTW, LAX
Majority is rotated at JFK and ATL.

0 domestic 767-400 flights listed
28 international 767-400 flights
10 RT flights to Europe (20 flights)
4 RT flights to South America (8 flights)
0 RT flights to Asia nor Africa

Rotation seems that it would happen predominately at ATL or JFK but a large majority are flying to LHR where a rotation may happen.

Boeing 747-400 series
16 aircraft in fleet

22 747-400 flights
6 RT flights to Asia (12 flights)
4 RT flights Asia to Japan (8 flights)
1 RT flight to Middle East or Africa (2 flights)

Rotation seems to take place predominantly at DTW, NRT with a possible rotation at JFK for TLV It could also happen at MNL where there are two daily flights; one to NGO and one to NRT.

Boeing 777-200 series
18 in fleet
8 777-200E
10 777-200LR

14 777-200ER flights
2 RT domestic (4 flights)
- 2 West or North flights (ATL-DTW x2)
- 2 East or South flights (DTW-ATL x2)
5 RT international flights (10 flights)
- 2 RT to Asia (4 flights)
- 1 RT in Asia (NRT-SIN) (2 flights)
- 2 RT to Middle East or Africa (4 flights)

Rotations happen at ATL, DTW, and NRT with one daily and one 6x domestic repositioning flights

14 777-200LR flights
1 RT domestic flights (2 flights)
6 RT international flights (12 flights)
- 2 RT flights to Middle East or Africa (4 flights)
- 2 RT flights to Asia (4 flights)
- 1 RT flight to the pacific (2 flights)
- 1 RT flight within Asia (2 flights: 5x weekly)

Rotations happen at ATL and DTW with a repositioning flight between LAX and ATL

This was just the rough data. There is a lot more analysis to do. I will try to get my data up someplace soon for others to scrounge over.
----
*Need clarification on this route



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4820 times:
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Quoting FSDan (Reply 11):
Well, their DOT application was specifically for 744 service, and that's possibly why they were awarded two out of the four available slots. So would they be able to simply downgauge to a 332 or 777 like they could on any other route?

I think it will start out with the 744, but soon after it will be downgauged to a 763ER or a A332 in regards to their LAX-HND flight. They are competing directly with NH on this route in which they are using 77Es. The 744 will be way too much a/c for this market considering departure times and that NRT is a huge transfer point for DL passengers.

Quoting centrair (Reply 12):
2) Some routes change between 777 types per week. SIN is 5x with a 77L and 2x with 77E
3) Some routes are assigned as just "767". Thus it could be a 767-400 or a 767-300. Larger chance is -300
Quoting centrair (Reply 12):

A330s seem to be getting rotated at ATL, DTW, SEA, AMS, NRT, HNL
A330-300 are also used domestically on MSP-HNL-MSP and ATL-HNL-ATL. From there they rotate to NRT or KIX. At NRT they can be rotated back to HNL or off to Asia or SEA. All other A330s fly international and are rotated at the HUB or international port.

Thanks so much for the interesting outlook on the widebody fleet utilization.

You mention the coding for the 767. Outside of the DL system for employees, the 767 is decoded as a 300ER. A 763 is a non ER version and I believe the 764 comes up as just that.

DL is also doing a daily A332 rotation between LAX-ATL in addition to DL sending the same type on LAX-NRT.
There's also a daily 763ER rotation between LAX-DTW . LAX sees them pretty regularly too.

Regards,
LACA773


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
There's also a daily 763ER rotation between LAX-DTW . LAX sees them pretty regularly too.

Not a 300ER....its a 76Q....MSP is a 76P (both of which are 767-300As.)

Quoting centrair (Reply 12):

3) Some routes are assigned as just "767". Thus it could be a 767-400 or a 767-300. Larger chance is -300

764 routes as of today (1X unless noted)
ATL-GRU
ATL-GIG
ATL-EZE
ATL-LHR
ATL-FRA
ATL-MUC
ATL-LGW
JFK-LHR (3X)
JFK-FCO(5X WEEKLY)
MSP-LHR
DTW-LHR.

all other international 767 routes are 7ERs
domestic 7ER flights are
ATL-JFK
ATL-SEA
ATL-DTW (3x weekly)


Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):

DL is also doing a daily A332 rotation between LAX-ATL in addition to DL sending the same type on LAX-NRT.

yes to the first part, no to the 2nd. LAX-NRT is a 747-400. the ATL-LAX 332 turn is just do to down time in Atlanta I guess. (ATL-LAX is the only 330 flight into LA at this time)



yep.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 12):
2) Some routes change between 777 types per week. SIN is 5x with a 77L and 2x with 77E

This will be more common as the 77Es progress through the flat bed mod and the entire 777 fleet goes through PE mod.

When you look at some of the things that DL could do with more 777s, you realize that a fleet of just 18 is a significant constraint.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 11):
Well, their DOT application was specifically for 744 service, and that's possibly why they were awarded two out of the four available slots. So would they be able to simply downgauge to a 332 or 777 like they could on any other route?

Yes they are free to downguage. There is nothing in the award dictating that they must maintain the service on a 744. I assume it is possible that another airline could challenge it to the DOT, but it likely wouldn't get very far, especially if DL uses the 744 on the route long enough to show a good faith effort to operate it with the aircraft in their application (if loads don't support a 744 the DOT is not going to care that they downguaged and if the loads do support it then DL will want to leave the 744 there anyway)

Quoting centrair (Reply 12):
3) Some routes are assigned as just "767". Thus it could be a 767-400 or a 767-300. Larger chance is -300
Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
You mention the coding for the 767. Outside of the DL system for employees, the 767 is decoded as a 300ER. A 763 is a non ER version and I believe the 764 comes up as just that.

The "767" code does refer to a 767-300ER international configured aircraft. The "763" are the domestic models (not sure about the -ER or non -ER status - I only care about the seats). The 767-400s have two codes, "764" for the old international seating configuration and "76D" for the new lie-flat seat models that are only scheduled on LHR ops right now until they finish converting the entire fleet.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
The "763" are the domestic models (not sure about the -ER or non -ER status - I only care about the seats).

DL doesn't have any domestic 767-300ERs.

DL has 10 767-300As (76Qs) with 7 on there way(back) into the fleet. DL has 4 767-300As that have ETOPS (76Ps) that fly to Hawaii for SLC and LAX.

At this time all 59 767-300ER aircraft are in international config and only fly very very few domestic routes

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):

all other international 767 routes are 7ERs
domestic 7ER flights are
ATL-JFK
ATL-SEA
ATL-DTW (3x weekly)
Quoting goldenstate (Reply 15):

When you look at some of the things that DL could do with more 777s, you realize that a fleet of just 18 is a significant constraint.

One always hopes they have a change of heart and order more....         



yep.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):

The "767" code does refer to a 767-300ER international configured aircraft. The "763" are the domestic models (not sure about the -ER or non -ER status - I only care about the seats). The 767-400s have two codes, "764" for the old international seating configuration and "76D" for the new lie-flat seat models that are only scheduled on LHR ops right now until they finish converting the entire fleet.

It depends on what you are looking at, on the Delta timetable they only use 3 codes, 763(76P/Q) 767(76L/U/T/G) and 764(76C/D)



yep.
User currently offlinealexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

Doesnt a 330 sit in SEA for almost 24 hours everyday?


You mad Bro???
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
You mention the coding for the 767. Outside of the DL system for employees, the 767 is decoded as a 300ER. A 763 is a non ER version and I believe the 764 comes up as just that.

DL is also doing a daily A332 rotation between LAX-ATL in addition to DL sending the same type on LAX-NRT.
There's also a daily 763ER rotation between LAX-DTW . LAX sees them pretty regularly too.

Thank you. I will have to look into this. Airfleets didn't show non ER in their list so I assumed that they were just rotating ERs into domestic use for a flight here and there.

The schedule is hard to read and sometimes it is hard to tell if a flight is daily, several days a week or every blue moon with an aircraft. I tried to use the last "eff" date to determine a true usage and not a one-off swap for the holidays. But even then it comes off bizarre.

In the area of routes, the oddest was ROB. It says ROB to ATL stops 1 but doesn't show where the stop is. I had to use an historical search on a flight status site to see that it is actually ATL-ACC-ROB. Is ACC-ROB not 5th freedom?

Anyone have a suggestion as to where I could upload the excel file to share?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3721 times:
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Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):

Not a 300ER....its a 76Q....MSP is a 76P (both of which are 767-300As.)
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
yes to the first part, no to the 2nd. LAX-NRT is a 747-400. the ATL-LAX 332 turn is just do to down time in Atlanta I guess. (ATL-LAX is the only 330 flight into LA at this time)

Thanks for the information, deltal1011man. I appreciate it. I'm always learning something new from you   .


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 21):

Thanks for the information, deltal1011man. I appreciate it. I'm always learning something new from you

anytime


just a note NRT does go back to a 332 in APR then it goes 333 in june



yep.
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