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EU Slams Boeing Over Sonic Cruiser  
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 20
Posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

EU chief slams Boeing over gas-guzzling new jet

By Robin Pomeroy

BRUSSELS, June 22 (Reuters) - The European Union's top environmental official lashed out at U.S. aircraft maker Boeing on Friday for planning to make a gas-guzzling new high-speed airliner.

In a letter to the Seattle-based aircraft giant, EU Environment Commissioner Margot Wallstrom accused Boeing's Vice-Chairman Harry Stonecipher of nonchalance towards the environmental impact of the planned new 'Sonic Cruiser' jet.

Wallstrom criticised comments Stonecipher made to The Times newspaper on Tuesday in which he appeared to dismiss concerns about increasing greenhouse gas emissions from aviation as a "bandwagon," saying there were was "plenty of fossil fuel still around."

"I find it hard to believe that anyone today could afford himself the luxury of a 'let's-not-think-about-tomorrow' attitude which runs diametrically opposed to the aims of sustainable development," Wallstrom said in an open letter to Stonecipher.

Boeing says the Sonic Cruiser will travel at 95 percent the speed of sound -- 15 percent faster than existing commercial jets. But it will consume 35 percent more fuel and emit more carbon dioxide, the main gas blamed for global warming.


Wallstrom's assault comes at a politically sensitive moment for trans-Atlantic trade relations in the aeronautics field.

The European Commission -- which acts as the EU's competition authority -- is coming under pressure from the United States to allow General Electric Co ., which makes jet engines, to buy avionics firm Honeywell International Inc .

The Commission has serious concerns over whether the $41.8 billion deal would damage competition in the sector and in the past week political pressure to accept the deal has been applied by U.S. President George W. Bush, members of his cabinet and several members of the U.S. Senate.

Boeing's Stonecipher weighed in on the debate last Saturday, accusing the European aircraft firm Airbus Industrie 1/8ARBU.UL 3/8 of lobbying against the GE deal. He later retracted the accusation in the face of denials from GE, Airbus and the EU.


Wallstrom said as air travel emits 3.5 percent of the world's greenhouse gases -- and those emissions were set to double over the next 10-15 years -- manufacturers should concentrate on developing more fuel efficient, rather than faster, aircraft.

"The question is whether a one-hour time saving on a trans-Atlantic flight is worth a significant increase in CO2 emissions...In my view the environmental price is simply not worth paying," she said.

The Commission has called for aviation fuel -- which has a worldwide tax exemption -- to be taxed as a way of slowing the growth in air transport and its environmental costs.

11:27 06-22-01

Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
141 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2684 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Blah blah blah blah blah.. They are just quaking in their boots because they have to practically give away those white elephant A380's. What Hypocrites.

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8653 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

I have lost a lot of respect for Boeing over recent statements about the Sonic Cruiser. Some idiot from Boeing announced that "there is plenty of fossil fuel left" - yeah, let's chuck all of it into the atmosphere now and cut trans-Atlantic flying time by a mere hour - then, when criticised, said, "I apologise for not jumping on the environmental bandwagon earlier". It's not a 'bandwagon', you f***ing idiots, it's a genuine concern. I think some Americans, Dubya amongst them, think limiting emissions and caring for the environment that sustains us are just tactics to limit US economic growth. Well, you reap what you sow.

fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offline174thFWff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

Excuse me but your wrong. The A380 isn't going to use that much more fuel.

"The new A380 will have 49% more cabin floorspace but only 33% more passenger seats, resulting in a significant improvement in comfort. Fuel consumption will be 20% lower, working out at three litres per passenger per 100 kilometres and raising environmental acceptability significantly. And even the aircraft noise restrictions in London Heathrow, which are feared throughout the industry due to their strictness, will pose no problem to the new model.

This performance will be possible, according to Forgeard, thanks to the use of new, weight-saving composites made out of fibreglass-aluminium and carbon fibre and through the development of a state-of-the-art wing. This wing actually poses a quite special design challenge, for, instead of stretching it out freely so as to optimise fuel consumption, as is possible today and is in fact customary with other Airbuses, the engineers have to keep its wing span under 80m. If they can do this, then the A380 will fit onto most of the taxiways and aprons used by today's jumbo jets so that the airports will not need to make expensive structural modifications. "

From http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0103/FR0103a.htm

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 12434 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3749 times:

Umm... if the EU are so damned concerned about fuel efficiency, why did/do they allow the fricking Concorde to fly? You want to talk about guzzling fuel...

Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineSilverstreak From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

I agree with EU rep about the Boeing project. Frankly, I doubt if Boeings' plane sees the runway. It seems flawed somehow, but I can't say just how.

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8653 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

I see where you're coming from re the Concorde but six or eight Concorde flights a day (assuming it gets it's CoA back) by a handful of museum pieces is not the same as a mass-market new design which is expected to sell more than 500 aircraft. And Concorde was designed when there wasn't a lot of awareness of the damage done to the environment by aviation. Now we DO know, should we be launching a new type which is a gas-guzzler? Or looking at efficiency.

I agree with Silverstreak, I don't think the Sonic Cruiser will fly. I can think of a few reasons, here's what Richard Branson (Virgin Atlantic) announced recently: "I have had detailed talks with Boeing and I am excited about the Sonic Cruiser which will change the face of aviation. I expect to order three." THREE?! I think Boeing are screwed.

fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineDesmidus From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

I think Rich Branson only wants 3 as novelty items too.

User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Here is my message to the EU:

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3721 times:

Spring time for tree huggers in Europe...

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 12434 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

So, Cedarjet, gas guzzling, and ozone depleting is okay, if it's only done by a handful of flights a day? I don't think you agree with that statement either.

My point is that there is a lot of hypocrisy going on. Concorde (which will still be much more polluting and gas guzzling than the boeing type) is being pushed back into the skies. It has had its curtain call imo, and the EU, BA, and AF still want encores. But, when an AMERICAN company wants a piece of the action, then it's too polutant. It's too gas guzzling. etc. You can't have it both ways.

This reminds me a good bit of the 737-200 debacle where the EU banned reselling the model in Europe, forcing airlines to buy newer jets; Airbus jets in specific.

Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineDesmidus From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Well they have to look out for their own...if I were the EU, I'd be doing the same thing, especially since it is a somewhat valid, if not unbiased, point that they make.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

can see the Airbus supporters are out in force tonight. Folks, this is just a PR blitz by the EU on behalf of Airbus. It's a concerted effort by the two to boost sales of the A380, which is still on the drawing board, and try to draw away any interest in the Sonic Cruiser, which is still on the drawing board.

Can't any of you see how transparent this statement is? It has nothing to do with gas-guzzling; it has nothing to do with fuzzy environmentalism. It's about the EU, who's memebers heavily subsidize Airbus, pushing as hard as they can for the A380, because they're scared to death of the Sonic Cruiser.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

They are definitely trying to help Airbus the best they can. Now it's becoming U.S.A. vs. Europe in the environment area.

Personally, the Europeans are calling the kettle black. If they want to talk the talk then they have to walk the walk. If they want to call us barbaric because of the environment, then they better prove that they are better in that regard. How much air pollution do they generate per person in their old factories? They also haven't signed the Kyoto Treaty either, so why are they making GWB look bad, they haven't done anything to make themselves look good.

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBoeing747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

I am not too bog a supporter for the Sonic Cruiser myself, but you Euros need to back the hell off.

Do we see Boeing released shit statements each week about the A380? NO.

I think Boeing is making the Sonic Cruiser as a coverup of working hardly on either the 747-400LRX or 747X and -Stretch programs. The Sonic Cruiser won't beat the A380 consuming that much fuel for just an hour less of flight, and I know it.

Just my 2 cents, so don't go freaking out and flaming me.



BTW, Alpha 1, great post!

User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

It was OK for Clinton to try and stop the A380 because its made by more then one country.

Why is it not OK for the EU to try and stop a plane thats going to burn even more fuel then the planes of today ???

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Hkgspotter1-If they are going to get serious about air pollution then I want to see their names on the Kyoto treaty, until then this "environment" stuff, is just PR for Airbus.

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6544 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

#1) The A380 and the Sonic Cruiser are not direct competitors. Different mission plans entierly.

#2) What continent has the greatest percentage of leisure flights? Could it be Europe? Why yes, it is. How badly do the European people care about the environment when they galavant around the continent on "charter flights". Nothing intrinsically wrong with it, just don't pretend you're better.

#3) Are we going to face another situation where the EU has veto power over US companies? REF Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger. When did the US become part of the EU?

I really do not mean to slam Europeans in any way, just consider how imperialistic it is. I know, I come from the country of Imperalist thought. Doesn't make it right though.

Just several of my opinions.

Steve  Smile

The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quite frankly, the EU can piss off. The article below pretty much sums it all up. Pay special attention to the portions regarding Kyoto. I remember the "hard-hitting" European press corps asking President Bush to explain himself regarding this issue, and for the EU President or commissioner (or whatever the hell his title is) to explain why the Kyoto treaty has not been ratified by any EU countries. They kept hammering away at Bush, while letting the leader of the EU, the man they SHOULD have been demanding accountability from, not the President of the United States, they let him (Mr. Prodi I believe, or at least something close to that) off with some half-intelligible, garbled answer in broken English...when the man speaks perfect English when he wants to. It still amazes me how fiercely Europeans defend their sovereignty on one hand (evil USA trying to meddle) while formally giving it up to the EU, while at the same time STILL attempting to comment on all aspects of US policy (from the environment to the death penalty to McDonald's hamburgers). The President of the United States is accountable to the people of the United States....Boeing is accountable to its stockholders and bound to follow the laws of the United States and the State of Illinois.

While we are lectured by the Europeans on this forum for turning Airbus vs Boeing into USA vs Europe, this is just proof positive that, to the EU, A v B is USA v EU. Notice also that the article in the original post is from Reuters, the new public relations wing of Airbus Industrie.

Environmentalism, in the form preferred, apparently, within Europe, IS a bandwagon. People differ in their opinions on environmentalism based on the science they choose to place more stock in. It seems the Euro tree huggers, like many over here, choose to follow the school that says that anything humans do damages the environment. It's just that, in the European version, the failings of their own leaders on environmental issues, are ignored, while they fervently seek out the accountability of other leaders.

June 17, 2001
Europe Builds Itself Up at Bush's Expense

WASHINGTON — THOUSANDS of protesters chanted against President Bush
during his stops in Spain, Belgium and Sweden last week, some baring their
rear ends; European leaders spoke condescendingly of America's president;
the European press depicted him as a cowboy hayseed. In other words, from
the European perspective, the Bush visit could not have gone better.

As the European Union struggles to expand, to "harmonize" its thousands of
overlapping rules, to manage its uncountable internecine jealousies and to
formulate a new understanding of what it means to be European, there is one
thing all Europeans seem to agree on. It is faux horror about the United

For all their pretenses of being dismayed by Mr. Bush, if European Union
leaders were to describe their dream American president for this moment in
time, they might well specify someone exactly like Mr. Bush —
seemingly, at least to European eyes, unsophisticated, swaggering and
brash, all the qualities the European Union can unite on in dreading the
United States.

"The European Union has a hormone problem," says Jeffrey Gedmin, a Europe
scholar who runs the New Atlantic Initiative at the American Enterprise
Institute in Washington. "They are developing a sense that whatever
diminishes the stature of the United States is of benefit to Europe."

During Mr. Bush's visit, President Jacques Chirac of France, Chancellor
Gerhard Schroeder of Germany and Prime Minister Wim Kok of the Netherlands
all criticized his positions on global warming and missile defense,
breaking the taboo that heads of state do not air disagreements during
state visits. The Council of Europe, roughly analogous to the Organization
of American States, was so underwhelmed that the American president was in
its jurisdiction that by midweek the front page of its Web site had no
mention of his presence. Instead, the major news was, "Parliamentary
Assembly to Observe Elections in Bulgaria."

Such slights against the leader of the best friend Europe has ever had were
intended to inflate the European Union's collective ego. For great issues
have recently made the European Union fractious: proposed expansion from 15
to 27 member nations (basically all the former Eastern Europeans states
want in, and Ireland just voted no to that); whether Turkey should become
part of Europe (if it qualifies for the European Union, Turkey would
receive huge subsidies); whether there should be a European meta-government
that supersedes national capitals. And with the demise of the Soviet Union,
Europe now has no enemy to unite its competing states.

In such a context, Europe might find it useful to have a common antagonist.
Enter Mr. Bush.

The Bush administration's rejection of the Kyoto global warming treaty,
supposedly bad news, actually could not have been scripted better. European
Union leaders got to repeatedly denounce Mr. Bush for saying the United
States will not ratify Kyoto — though no European Union nation has
ratified it, either. After the 1992 "Earth Summit" in Rio, when Mr. Bush's
father declared that the United States would not accept mandatory
greenhouse-gas reductions, he was lambasted by European leaders, who vowed
prompt, decisive action to impose restrictions on their own. They did

Last week, after deriding the Bush position on Kyoto, the European Union
again vowed prompt greenhouse action, promising to ratify Kyoto on its own.
Yet no European nation other than Denmark has any serious
greenhouse-reduction strategy even in the planning stages, while a
stand-alone European Union ratification of Kyoto is a million-to-one shot.
From the Europeans' standpoint, the ideal outcome was for the Kyoto treaty
to collapse but for Washington to take the blame. Now Europe gets to act
outraged, while being spared the hard work and cost of actual reform.

Indeed, despite European protestations, American ecological standards are
far more strict than European rules, and have been for 20 years or more.
"Europe is now the world leader on environmental issues," the Swedish
environment minister, Kjell Larsson, said as Mr. Bush arrived in his
nation. But Paris today has worse smog than Houston; water quality,
especially of rivers, is lower in Europe than in the United States; acid
rain reduction has been more rapid in the United States than in Europe;
European Union nations like Greece, Italy and Portugal still discharge huge
volumes of untreated municipal waste water, a practice all but banned in
America. In addition, the European Union did not act against leaded
gasoline till more than a decade after the United States; the forested
percentage of the United States is higher than the forested percentage of
most European countries, while America has fewer threatened species than
Europe; and many other environmental indicators favor the United States.

It is true that Europe is more energy-efficient than America. And moreover,
as Bjorn Lomborg, a professor at the University of Aarhus in Denmark,
demonstrates in the forthcoming book "The Skeptical Environmentalist," smog
is declining and water quality improving everywhere in the West, Europe and
America alike. But the idea that Europe is ahead on environmental matters
is a convenient fiction of European politics.

TRYING to build up Europe by acting outraged against America has become the
European national sport on many fronts. One is anger about globalization by
American companies, though European firms are themselves active

European diplomats harp on America's refusal to agree to a global treaty
banning land mines. (The Pentagon maintains that its defense of the
North-South Korean border rules out a land-mine ban.) Land-mine reduction
is an important goal, but pales on the arms agenda compared with reduction
of nuclear warheads — something that, inconveniently, Washington is

On no subject is Europe's internal need to feel superior to the United
States more clear than capital punishment. Outlawing capital punishment is
now a condition of European Union membership, and European commentators
like to suggest there is a huge values gap between Europe and America.
Always skipped is that 12 American states ban the death penalty, while
polls show public pro-and-con views regarding capital punishment are nearly
identical in the United States and the European Union. When the French
politician Jack Lang was campaigning for mayor of Paris, he ostentatiously
traveled to Texas to meet with a death- row prisoner; he was lauded in
France. (Imagine if a candidate for mayor of Dallas traveled to Paris to
meet with poor North African immigrants to discuss French racism.)
Something besides moral opposition to the death penalty underlies this
European obsession.

That something may extend to a realignment of American-European relations.
Speaking in France before Mr. Bush's visit, former Secretary of State Henry
A. Kissinger said the European allies now perceive a need to check American
strength. Using the balance-of- power calculations that are the mainstay of
traditional European diplomacy, Europe worries that America is too strong,
and wants to bring it down a notch.

Mr. Gedmin of the American Enterprise Institute thinks the day may not be
far off when Europe sides with Russia or even China against America on some
key issue. A possible preview: When Mr. Bush first decided to review North
Korea policy, the European Union sent a delegation to Pyongyang to confuse
the situation.

It seems certain there's more Euro-static coming, because for the moment,
many European leaders believe that making small of America is in their

Gregg Easterbrook, a senior editor of The New Republic and visiting fellow
at the Brookings Institution, is the author of "A Moment on the Earth: The
Coming Age of Environmental Optimism."

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Cwapilot's novel can be purchased on the Internet for $24.99 USD. All proceeds go to the building of the Sonic Cruiser.  Smile

User currently offlineCYKA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

lol......that last remark made my day.

User currently offlineN400QX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

I SAY SCREW THE EU. They can take their 'concerns' and shove them up their collective asses.

The EU has absolutely no business whining about this because it is, after all, a ploy to attack their (yes- their) competitor.

User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2854 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

As an avid hiker and camper, as well as a member of the Sierra Club and several outdoor recreation clubs here in the Seattle area, I can tell you that I am no fan of Pres. Bush or other industrialists who think jobs are more important than the planet.

However, that being said, let me say this - I don't know what's worse, an honest industrialist or a hypocritical environmentalist. Mr. Stonecipher's comments were purely idiotic, and probably taken out of context. However, that does not excuse the E.U. to use the environment as a commercial weapon in some foolish anti-U.S. tirade. This is no better than Mr. Bush's unilateral actions when dealing with North Korea or his push for a missle defense. It truly angers me when environmental issues are cheapened by becoming pawns for people who don't really give a damn, as long as it sounds good. I recently read with amazement that Germany has decided to phase out nuclear power and will replace it with more coal- and oil-burning power plants. I hardly think this is a step in the right direction, or a decided boon for the atmosphere. Of course, nuclear waste is an immediate hazard, and one we must deal with. But not by taking a step backwards.
If the Reuters article provided by CWApilot is any indication, the comments made by this E.U. official is hypocrisy in the highest form. Please, let's learn some more about the Sonic Cruiser, which is at best still 7 years away, before we lambast it. BTW - I'm curious what will be said if airlines such as British, Virgin, Air Frace, Lufthansa, etc. order this aircraft. Will it still be an environmental hazard?


Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSonic cruiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

When they start whinning thats a good sign! Build it and build it fast!

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

Who cares what an EU politician said?They talk out of their asses all the time just like American politicans.It's A common political property!And B757300, remember Pearl Harbour?

25 OO-VEG : If Boeing contineus building the sonic-cruiser they will not find many customers for it. Especially with those high fuel prices everywhere. So I don't
26 Wirraway : As an Aussie and no tree hugger, I can well imagine the European newspapers if and when the S/C flys, "SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT DON'T FLY ON SONIC CRUISER
27 Eg777er : No doubt Airbus is engineering this press coverage from behind the scenes. But who cares - the Seattle PI does it all the time. Anyone who gets upset
28 Singapore_Air : Although some might not want a USA vs. Europe war, comments like EU can piss off, and not fly SC because it pollutes the Earth, are very hypocritical
29 Post contains images Gaut : I really don't understand all those anti EU replies. The EU Environment Commissioner Margot Wallstrom's question is a good one. Is it time to build an
30 KUGN : Its a damn lie that USA is not trying to limit air pollution. What do you know what my and other companies have been required to do in order to protec
31 Gaut : KUGN Here is an article for you: US rejection of Kyoto treaty still drawing world criticism Nations from the South Pacific to the Caribbean and Latin
32 Voodoo : If aircraft fuel prices do get heavily taxed by Kyoto signing countries..............
33 MD-11 forever : I think if one country alone can pollute the planet with one quater of the overall CO2 emissions, then I think it's up to this country to question its
34 KUGN : Gaut, how come no one criticizes EU, China, Russa or countries for their pollutions. Which industrial giant nation in the world has signed the treaty
35 MD-11 forever : Well KUGN, I'm no communist at all, and I also saw a bit of the world...... It's good to have one to say "they have to start first".... you'll always
36 KUGN : I am not accusing anyone personally of being communist, but you get to admit that all those anti-globalist enviromentalist and other movements have be
37 MD-11 forever : Well these 75% are all the other countries of this planet. Ever heard that the emissions of a plane are the most dangerous ones because they are at hi
38 JAL : I'm not surprise that the EU is slamming the Sonic Cruiser as it has the potential of taking away some potential customers for the A380. If the EU is
39 Post contains images Singapore_Air : Good point and I think that COncorde should be dismantled or put in a museum, we must move on from that. And BA will lose a status symbol which will m
40 Post contains images Nicolaki : Really this conversation is a big piece of sh*t. I'm so tired of those EU vs. US conversations. It's true that the Sonic Cruiser will probably end up
41 MD-11 forever : Nicolaki, I totally agree with you! we should leave these people to their dreams.........
42 Sinlock : F#@$ the Earth.......... let it burn!!!!!! I'm going to go live on mars. :P
43 Gaut : KUGN, "Gaut, how come no one criticizes EU, China, Russa or countries for their pollutions. Which industrial giant nation in the world has signed the
44 A330/B777 : What a shame I have to live among all you idiot anti-environmentalists. Your criticism of "tree-huggers" is really something that I just can't underst
45 Nicolaki : Ok quickmath for everybody We are in 2010 and Air Canada just received it's first Sonic Cruiser, it decides to put it on the YUL-CDG route. Average pr
46 Alpha 1 : There are responsible environmenalists, who want to balance the enviroment with obvious human needs to survive in this modern world, and are willing t
47 Jonnyboy : I could only read 70% of this post before i moved down to throw in my thoughts! Firstly, sorry Republicans, but Bush is an ignorant leader on world af
48 Teej13 : A330/B777 & Hamlet69: well said. Firstly, I don't think any of us can be so sure that EU concerns of the Sonic Cruiser are thinly veiled barbs in defe
49 CmnSnc : Two points: Jonnyboy, you are at least an order of magnitude off on your estimate of wind power in Spain -- it doesn't even register on the power plan
50 Joni : The EU is set to ratify and implement the Kyoto protocol, and China has _already implemented_ emission cuts in line with the Kyoto protocol. This is
51 MD-11 forever : CmnSnc, Why should an airline buy this plane to fly it as slow as the others? as i understood, the main marketing strategy to praise this plane is its
52 Joni : CmnSnc, No, if the plane is more efficient than present planes at high speed, it just means that it's more efficient than, say, a 747 at M.95. It wil
53 Nicolaki : Joni, Concorde flies at Mach 2, do you think it is even more efficient at slower speeds? No it isn't, it is a really a different aircraft at slow spee
54 CmnSnc : I admit that I do not know what the characteristics of it will be all along the flight envelope so I am making a guess for discussion purposes, but co
55 Magyar : I just cannot stand not to contribute, sorry. I cannot let misconceptions (at least in my humble opinion) go unchallanged. First, why the US and EU sh
56 EGGD : Man this is BS, enough stupid wars about the damned Sonic Cruiser. Can't you just leave off the contraversial topics for 2 seconds? This sort of thing
57 M27 : Why do you people keep using 35% more fuel? It's an Airbus number! Why do you keep blasting Stonecipher for the statement on Fossil fuel? It has been
58 Godbless : I couln't read all the posts to this subject so I don't know if this has been said before... I think this is the same old A vs. B all over again, just
59 Jonnyboy : 15% was a direct quoted statistic from the Guardian newpaper, about 6 weeks ago CmnSnc! And to EVERYBODY!, WHEN (not if) the A380 flies. It is a momen
60 Post contains links Nicolaki : M27 you said Why do you people keep using 35% more fuel? It's an Airbus number! Check you information before you post buddy. It's a Boeing number http
61 Voodoo : Phil Condit said `Don't tell the competition they are making a mistake' ? Uh....So why have we been hearing `there is no market for superjumbos' for y
62 JU101 : It is great to see that EU has uptill now shown increasing concern over environmental issues, and accordingly has become active since the summit in Ja
63 M27 : Nicolaki Thanks for the link. This is the first time I have seen the full article. I just saw the one at the start of this post. I saw a couple of art
64 Post contains images B757300 : And your point about Pearl Harbor is?
65 Post contains images Boeing747-400 : Let's put it in a simple storie shall we? Here are your characters: Airbus: European Government: Boeing: The US Government: Ok got it? Good. Well, eac
66 GDB : It's still very early days with the SC, but I'm shocked at a figure of 35% more fuel than a conventional. Surely 10-15% should be more like it? In all
67 Ben88 : If Boeing really made statements like "there is plenty of fossil fuel still around” and "extra fuel would increase carbon emissions but the envi
68 GDB : B757300, Airbus are merely getting their own back for all the smug, dismissive and patronising digs Boeing used to put out. Used to, because now they
69 Voodoo : Until Boeing proves (flies) otherwise, 35% is what it works out to compared to whats claimed for the 380 fuel-seat-mile, thats if Boeing says 20% more
70 Post contains images Boeing nut : Once again, we have sadly demonstrated that we can turn a discussion about an aircraft with incredible potential, into an political A vs. B war. Anybo
71 174thFWff : HEY B757300! Are you a real american? THat is from Iwo Jima, not Peral Harbor! Get with it! LOL 174th Fighter Wing Fire Fighter
72 Post contains images B757300 : I know where its from . Want me to fax you a copy of my diploma for my B.A. in History? Like this one better? Or How about this?
73 Post contains images Boeing nut : I have a question ....... what does Pearl Harbor have to do with the sonic cruiser?
74 B757300 : That's what I asked the first time.
75 Ben88 : Hey PanAm747, I didn't know that the former USSR (now Ukraine) was part of the European Union. I guess you got your edumacation at the same place GWB
76 B757300 : Respect and Honor are EARNED, not given away and not a right. That goes for both Europeans and Americans.
77 Post contains links Hamlet69 : Magyar, While in the past we have not agreed on very much, you make a great argument. I agree completely that the leaders of conservation and protecti
78 YoungDon : Let's get something straight. The Sonic Cruiser will never get built. It will consume too much fuel at .95 Mach, plus it will only achieve that over t
79 JAL : Like imisspiedmont said, why do EU have veto power over US companies? Boeing747-400, I like the graphics on your post!!!!! Very nice!!!!
80 King767 : "Like imisspiedmont said, why do EU have veto power over US companies?" Eric, The EU really can't stop anything that happens here in the U.S. (ex. the
81 Post contains images Boeing747-400 : Hi JAL, Thanks for your remark! I think a discussion like this needs a little humor.
82 PanAm747 : Ben88->>guess you got your edumacation at the same place GWB did.
83 Ben88 : We are talking about a man who referred to Africa as a "nation." Also, it's a good thing you're going into astronautics, because you don't know shit a
84 Alpha 1 : Pan Am 747 said: "GWB in White House, Ben88 not in White House Who's the stupid one?" Who's the overbearing, arrogant, thinks-himself-better-than-ever
85 Post contains images Gaut : PanAm747, I thing your post is really degrading for the American nation. It's a sensless post and non related to the topic. I don't need a degree from
86 Post contains images 747Specialist : PanAm747: ''The EU is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. Hey where is Chernobyl located.....oh that's right, over THERE!!!!!!!! (We can still feel the
87 Post contains images L-188 : Hey 747 Specialist........If you want to split hairs.....There are serval parts of the US that used to be parts of Mexico..... Sorry....just being a s
88 Teej13 : There's a reason why this discussion is still going - nobody's got anything decent to say anymore!! Between Pearl Harbour, "edumacation" from Yale, an
89 SegmentKing : Lovely postings. In regards to European S T U P I D I T Y ... why did they bash Bush so much about KYOTO? China and India combined produce 28 times mo
90 Mac : You people from North America and Europe will never change! You will always be at each others throat...no matter what. I wonder at times at what level
91 KUGN : SegmentKing, you echo what I've said earlier but it seems that no one in Europe cares about emmissions made by India and China. If they were truly int
92 Flaps : Perhaps one reason for the US having aquired so many enemies over the years is our well intended but misguided penchant for bailing our "friends" out
93 Alpha 1 : SegmentKing, you hit it right on the head why the U.S. is against Kyoto. It exempts two nations with almost half the world's population, who emit tons
94 Alpha 1 : Flaps said: "Perhaps one reason for the US having aquired so many enemies over the years is our well intended but misguided penchant for bailing our "
95 Gaut : Yes this topic has to do with pollution and Kyoto, Boeing admit a 20%+ consumption!! US is the Supernation and you have to show the exemple!! Instead
96 Flaps : Last time I checked, the primary purpose of the Cruiser was a faster aircraft. It was not primarily intended to be an environmentally friendly one. Ga
97 KUGN : That is rediculous Gaut. What do you think will China and India do when they show US' "example"? Nothing. Here is my example: I heat our house by elec
98 Joni : As was pointed out earlier, China has already reduced its greenhouse gas emissions in a similar way that Kyoto stipulates for the EU and US.
99 Alpha 1 : Gaut, go ahead, be that gullible. It's just pure economic politics going on here, nothing else. Why would the EU feel the need to blast Boeing over a
100 Gaut : First I never heard news from China saying they don't want to ratify the treaty (even if is possible) US don't have a big influence on China but they
101 Plane holland : Let's all use the sonic cruiser....maybe we can start using it also for regional flights... and consume fuel until this planet has no more left....let
102 Teej13 : To not adopt a sound environmental policy because other countries won't is silly. It's like the feuding siblings that say "well, he did it, so why can
103 Alpha 1 : Gaut, Kyoto may have some good provisions, but it's a bad treaty, when it tells countries like the U.S. "you have to cut your emissions", but tells co
104 Alpha 1 : Teej13 said: "To not adopt a sound environmental policy because other countries won't is silly. It's like the feuding siblings that say "well, he did
105 OO-AOG : Too bad if the US don't care. We should show the example and be a steap ahead. They don't care of the health of the planet, ok, so lets take care of i
106 Teej13 : That in in of itself has a total lack ofesponsibility. The U.S. is the most significant and powerful economy in the world. If the concerns about Green
107 Alpha 1 : I've read several times here how some of you not from the U.S. resent the U.S. always being "in the lead" in the world: being the world's dominant eco
108 SegmentKing : i think society, no matter where you live, is dumb... people never EVER can agree on what is best for them... especially when it comes down to politic
109 LON-CHI : I'm quite surprised to see so many staunch environmentalists on a forum dedicated to machines that guzzle gas and spew pollutants into the atmosphere.
110 Teej13 : Nobody resents the U.S. for being the top economy in the world. As a Canadian, I have to live next you you guys, and we are both each others largest t
111 Alpha 1 : Why should the U.S. take the "lead" on a treaty it doesn't think is fair or that is not good for the American people?
112 Teej13 : I'm not saying they should. I'm saying that they should take the lead a policy that supports the sustainable development of the environment. That is n
113 Alpha 1 : But if the U.S. doesn't agree with the merits of the deal, it can't really embrace the "spirit" of the deal, can it? You don't sign a deal because of
114 Post contains images B757300 : I really opened Pandora’s Box on this one... Cry Havoc And Lets Slip The Dogs Of War!
115 Flaps : Alpha 1 You hit the nail on the head with your "leadership" statement. It is exactly the point I was trying to make in my other reply only much more c
116 Post contains images Gaut : Alpha 1, I agree with you !! The problem is not the treaty. The problem is that USA don't want to "waste" money for less pollution! As you know it cos
117 Teej13 : The spirit of Kyoto is to reduce pollutants, puire and simple, in my opinion. It just seems to me like the U.S. is using China as a smokescreen to avo
118 KUGN : Gaut, well it is our own right to decide if we should "waste" our own money. Once there is a treaty that everyone is going to comply we'll go for it.
119 Teej13 : Ah well.. I give up. I'd just like to see someone pat themselves on the back 50 years from now for increasing pollution for the sake of saving a measl
120 Voodoo : In the words of a great American, Michael Moore: `One superpower down, One to go!'
121 Flaps : I have been reading and occaisionally commenting on this thread off and on all day. This afternoon I took a long walk around my neighborhood (about 7
122 Cwapilot : AMEN! However, all that will come in response to your well-thought, well-written post is more of the same: a bunch of Europeans, Canadians and America
123 EGGD : Alot of you guys have your heads up your asses. Boeing747-400, you should really shut up you look like a 5 year old. You too JAL, your posts are also
124 Post contains images Gibberish : I read your posts in sheer amusement. Some of you guys are just full of it. At least you are entertaining. For those I am talking about: Get a life. I
125 Post contains images SegmentKing : can the Swiss EVER take a side? :P they can't even decide which freggin alliance to be in! Hey, i'm all for the AirBeast A380 and the Sonic Cruiser. W
126 D L X : How did this thread get 4 stars? Less than half of the posts are actually related to the Sonic Cruiser. A bunch are about WWII. Too bad. it was an int
127 Nralife : May 10, 2001 Europe's Kyoto Scam by Patrick J. Michaels Patrick J. Michaels is senior fellow in environmental studies and author of "The Satanic Gases
128 Magyar : Sorry guys to revive this topic, but I have to force ignorant people who write things like this >> Gaut, Kyoto may have some good provisions, but it's
129 B757300 : I hate people who bring up crap just to start trouble.
130 FlyVS007 : The EU simply wants to protect the businesses that are part of its member countries. Last time I checked the US doesn't even allow European airlines t
131 Teej13 : This thing is still going??? I could write a book about all of the conspiracy theories that have been perpetuated in this thread alone. No one wants t
132 B757300 : Talk about opening Pandora's Box... I've already asked admin to archive this thread. Someone else please do the same. This thread has run its course a
133 Teej13 : I think you started a great topic, and the idea deserved its four star rating, or even five. It was a shame that it descended into what it did. Hopefu
134 King767 : I think the I hate America-O-meter has just jumped up a few decimals. Really, you guys are one of the most preduiced, arrogant, hatefilled users on th
135 Teej13 : I rest my case.
136 King767 : "I rest my case." Do I sense Hypocracy? One who responds to paranoia, shows that he is the one who is paranoid. I rest my case.
137 B757300 : There are both Americans and Europeans who spew such hatred for the others its amazing. I myself don't have a problem with Europeans, just the ones wh
138 Teej13 : King767, My point was more one of Diplomacy and a mature debate. Grow up.
139 King767 : "King767, My point was more one of Diplomacy and a mature debate. Grow up." I think I am going to laugh. -Tom
140 Boeing747-400 : Teej13, Now you are being so arrogant I have to come in here. If King767 here works at a Supermarket, then that means he is off his ass and making mon
141 King767 : "Then laugh from behind your supermarket counter, not here. Get an education, learn to debate, learn about your own country and perhaps some others. I
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