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European Airlines To Manila  
User currently offlinejetblue777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9961 times:

It's been a while since BA and LH pulled out of MNL and KL is the only European carrier left, that means they don't have any direct competition. Would it be smart if LH or BA return to MNL? Maybe via DXB or some middle eastern cities? via HKG? If they would, what A/C type would it be? KL is doing excellent in Manila with daily service to AMS on the 772/77W and many passengers also connect to different cities in Europe so it's not just AMS. LH pretty much covers all of Europe with its main fleet and subsidiaries, so IMO, they should go for MNL. There's also a huge Filipino population in Italy and LH has LH Italia. I also thought of AZ going to MNL because of the large population of Filipinos in Italy, but I know they won't. Thoughts?

PS: Is EK, EY and QR a competition for KL on the Philippines to Europe market?



On a side not, I remember months ago, there was a talk that TK would fly to MNL. Is this a possibility? How about EK starting flights to CEB to compete with QR?


[Edited 2011-01-07 21:06:03]


It's a cultural thing.
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFilAmAirlines From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9822 times:

As much as I'd like to see more European and US airlines flying to MNL, I see a few problems and concerns with any possibilities.
1) MNL Terminal 1 is already exceeding its capacity. Unless the airlines NOT based in the Philippines move to terminal 3, then any chances of European and US airlines flying there are slim to none. MNL's Terminal 1 is very oudated and filthy also.
2) I have read CRK is supposed to replace MNL as primary Philippine international airport sometime in the future.
3) The Philippines are well known for being primarily (if not solely) VFR traffic and such yields alone I feel wouldn't be profitable.

On a side note, I think the Philippines ranks as one of the top nations in terms of VFR passengers.



FNT is the death knell for MBS and LAN because of WN's commitment
User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9633 times:

unfortunately - last i heard - KLM is actually considering withdrawing from Manila (as is Delta) following ongoing discussions with the Philippine government about the taxation imposed on foreign carriers at Philippine airports..

read the article here

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/i...r/13/metro2.isx&d=2010/december/13

and it looks as though the issue has not been resolved.. chances of the carriers you mentioned returning to MNL or any other Philippine city thus looks pretty much like zero at this rate..


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9565 times:

Why do you think they have alliance partners?


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinecityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9546 times:

Quoting jetblue777 (Thread starter):
PS: Is EK, EY and QR a competition for KL on the Philippines to Europe market?

Yes they are! The Gulf carriers are contributing reasons to why it's even harder for European carriers to restart MNL.
EK, EY and QR all have double daily flights from their hubs to MNL (EY 12w), which doesn't make it easier for KL.

TK will most probably open MNL soon via some other city, and EK launching CEB is just a matter of time.
The Philippines and in particular MNL has huge potential and will become a huge market in the future, but it will take more time before European and American carriers start returning.

//Alex



I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
User currently offlineiflypal From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9064 times:

I would think the following would happen in the next nine months

-the T3 issue, with a new ruling favoring Fraport and the Pnoy will come to terms on just compensation for building the new (now older terminal). NH is due to open scheduled operations to T3, as would any new entrant that announces services to Manila.

-CX, SQ, KE, and TG will likely set shop at NAIA3 by the Nov. MH and JL to follow suit shortly thereafter. The ME carriers like QR, EK, SV, GF, KU, etc will remain in NAIA1 as would DL, UA (CO), KL, ie long haul carriers.

-Turkish will be the next European carrier to serve the Philippines, followed by a re-emergence of Lufthansa. Lufthansa will come back. Russian flights will continue to be chartered, except on a lot more frequent basis. Finnair is a remote possibility but not counting on any others in the near future.

-Philippine Airlines will continue to host its operations an NAIA2. In late Q4, a significant amount of its domestic operations will be transfered to AirPhil Express. NAIA2 will be reconfigured to do more international flights to accomodate international connecting traffic that will not require passengers to be escorted or to transfer within wings.

-EU ban on the Philippines will be lifted and US Cat 2 be upgraded to Cat 1 in Q2 (US latter Q2/Q3).

-PAL will resume European operations in the Winter schedule- betting on London and Rome as well as increased presence in the Middle East re: Jeddah and Dubai. At this point, it is disadvantageous for PR to continue depending on its code share relationship with the ME carriers, and although they will continue them, will start serving two or three (JED, DXB and a possible third) on its own metal. With its 340-300 (not reconfigured), I would hope to see European services go through a Middle Eastern point ala Dubai or Bahrain instead of N/S or via Bangkok (there is no traffic rights from Dubai-London but there are for Dubai to Rome, Bahrain has no restrictions on the its negotiated bilateral agreement for continuing flights to UK/Europe.

-On the US front, 2x additional LAX frequency and a start of the long awaited San Diego service via Vancouver towards the latter part of the year. would be all in the cards for 2011. Chicago or Newark not in the cards for 2011.

-Local activity would see PR or 2P flying to Kuala Lumpur, Kota Kinabalu and Brunei. PR has stated its intentions to fly to Phnom Penh. Online Chengdu and Hangzhou services for PR will be more likely. Seeing additional service to Jakarta nonstop. Denpasar WILL NEVER happen.

-The Indian market (new nonstops/one-stops) will be successful. Look for PR to get into a strategic relationship with Jet Airways


Lets keep tabs on these and see how close we get at the close of the year.

-


User currently offlinejetblue777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 2):
nfortunately - last i heard - KLM is actually considering withdrawing from Manila (as is Delta) following ongoing discussions with the Philippine government about the taxation imposed on foreign carriers at Philippine airports..

Wait what?! I don't see why KL would pull out of MNL and DL also! NW has been flying to MNL since the 1920s IIRC, it would be sad if DL would pull out.



It's a cultural thing.
User currently offlineLGWGate49 From Sudan, joined Nov 2009, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8833 times:

Quoting jetblue777 (Thread starter):
Is EK, EY and QR a competition for KL on the Philippines to Europe market?

GF also offer connections from LHR-MNL which I frequently use when travelling on business



Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8148 times:

Quoting iflypal (Reply 5):
-PAL will resume European operations in the Winter schedule- betting on London and Rome
Quoting iflypal (Reply 5):
-On the US front, 2x additional LAX frequency and a start of the long awaited San Diego service via Vancouver towards the latter part of the year. would be all in the cards for 2011. Chicago or Newark not in the cards for 2011.

This all is not going to happen in 2011 !

Simply because the EU-Ban by EASA will not be lifted anytime soon due to continued interference of the Philippine government with CAAP.

It´s not by accident that the ICAO audit was postponed with no new time frame set. The Philippines remain in category SSC (Significant Safety Concern).
The U.S. FAA was scheduled to have an audit in March 2011 and i don´t see them change their mind. They may visit and assess CAAP but Cat.2 will stay.
The FAA will not upgrade the Philippines before ICAO finds that the country is again conform with ICAO regulations !
Now that Alfonso Cusi has resigned because of governmental interference (by the new government) CAAP is in dire straits - and proposed upgradings by ICAO,FAA and EASA have moved really far away.

That´s the sad truth.



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Quoting iflypal (Reply 5):
-PAL will resume European operations in the Winter schedule- betting on London and Rome


I cannot see this happening at all in the forseeable future for the reasons posted above by MHG. Even if by some huge change in EU policy PR were permitted to fly to the EU, I'm afraid that they would not operate for long as they could not compete with SQ, EK, CX, EY or QR. Ok none of these will offer MNL direct, but they will slaughter PR not only for reliability and service, but also on probably the most important factor for this market...price. There is no point in trying to compete by offering the convenience of a direct service if that service has a bad opearting record (poor puctuality, cancellations), inferior in flight service, higher price, poor customer service, need I go on? PR has to improve big time before it could even consider competing in Europe.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7295 times:

Quoting jetblue777 (Reply 6):
NW has been flying to MNL since the 1920s IIRC

Not that early. NW started transpacific service, including MNL, in 1947.

Pan Am inaugurated the first transpacific service with flying boats in 1935 and the flights originally terminated at MNL.

[Edited 2011-01-08 16:25:59]

User currently offlinespud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7235 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3):
Why do you think they have alliance partners?

Exactly in europe.... Oneworld airlines like BA and AY can feed pax via HKG on CX / KA and NRT on JL.
*A carriers LH etc can send traffic via BKK on TG, SIN on SQ and ICN on OZ.
The rest is pretty much sorted on the Gulf carriers.


User currently offlineqblue From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6790 times:

There must be a market for non-stop service from europe. Out of YVR non-stop, PR is always highest in price and it cater to familys and older pax for convenience.

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6229 times:

MAS777....

SO what are the Taxes that makes Delta want to Pull out..??? I have heard that KL and DL loose money but MNL fills lots of seats.. Probelm for DL are excessive costs in MNL and Japan so they have to pay twice..and MNL sells the tickets in USD so not worth much compared to Japan (Yen)...


CO (Soon to be UA) charges alot more $$ so makes good money on the route mainly because of OCW employers paying more for the seats than PAL and DL..(often overbooked) to get the workers to and from MNL to IAH and MIA/FLL to work on ships and other jobs in the US.


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Quoting jetblue777 (Thread starter):
KL is doing excellent in Manila with daily service to AMS on the 772/77W and many passengers also connect to different cities in Europe so it's not just AMS

AF was flying 4 weekly to MNL via HKG and pulled out and let the market to KL . The same at CGK and at LIM were AF let to KL the markets.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1846 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 14):
AF was flying 4 weekly to MNL via HKG and pulled out and let the market to KL

Was it not from SIN ? I believe the SIN flight was continuing some days to CGK and the other days to MNL ?
If KL axes MNK, can Skyteam use SGN or HAN as a transit point with VN (I don't know if VN is flying to Philippines) ?

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 14):
The same at CGK and at LIM were AF let to KL the markets.

LIM will see soon service by both sister airlines (AF is re-starting the route soon)


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5997 times:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 9):
There is no point in trying to compete by offering the convenience of a direct service if that service has a bad opearting record (poor puctuality, cancellations), inferior in flight service, higher price, poor customer service, need I go on? PR has to improve big time before it could even consider competing in Europe.

You´re just right !

I wouldn´t see PR survive for long on any European route unless reliability and especially inflight service is raised significantly !
... and finally i can hardly imagine PR competing price-wise with the middle eastern carriers.
PAL might (successfully) charge a certain premium like KL if they offer non-stop flights from Europe to MNL/CEB (with good onward domestic-connex - helping PR/2P domestic against 5J) and e.g. Australia as well as other asian destinations.

But this would be possible only with at least an average overall quality level !

We´re flying to CEB this year and mrs MHG insists on flying CX (despite the fact that they charge a significant premium over middle eastern carriers...)
So, even me and mrs.MHG wouldn´t consider PR "if" they´d serve Europe this year - just because we need at least some "basic" level of reliability and quality ...
(even some middle eastern carriers serving the Phils. don´t offer that - we´ve made our experiences already ...   )



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
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