super80 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 133 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10420 times:
If I remember correctly, the KLM's brand identity was only guaranteed to 2008. and of course, the strong KLM brand is still here with us in 2011 and I don't see it going anywhere either.
However, I don't recall either AF or KL has made any comment regrading the future of the brand
(If they did, thats awesome too)
I just read an Peter Hartman's interview in the Holland Herald, and this is what he said:
Quote: So when will the KLM planes be losing their light blue livery and AIR FRANCE and KLM finally merging?
That simply is not going to happen. My feeling is that most passengers want a flag, a football team and an airline. By that I mean that there is a huge amount of emotion in the KLM brand which we must cherish.
and also:
Quote: It is also possible that Alitalia may soon join the AIR FRANCE KLM stable, and they will not change their brand either. The same goes for all the members of SkyTeam.
Regrading Alitalia, I am not sure if he meant meager or just the JV deal since he ended with "The same goes for all the members of SkyTeam." Why would other SkyTeam members drop their brands because of AF-KLM !?
dl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10261 times:
It seems like the next logical step for AZ to join up with AF/KL to have an even stronger partnership with DL
LIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10081 times:
On a side note, he forgot Xiamen as new destination in 2011
Quoting Hartman: Are there any new key destinations for 2011?
Certainly! We are really expanding our long-haul designations, adding Miami, Buenos Aires, Havana, Kigali, Budapest.
CaptainMeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 354 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9667 times:
Quoting LIPZ (Reply 3): Are there any new key destinations for 2011?
Certainly! We are really expanding our long-haul designations, adding Miami, Buenos Aires, Havana, Kigali, Budapest.
Is there a second Budapest somewhere in Latin America I don't know about?!
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8610 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 5): And how long until the board in Paris overrules him?
Might not end up as AF, but some new pan-European name, Paneur?
I don't think it's just a matter of pride or prestige for the Dutch, or even of International brand recognition of a very old legacy airline. And I highly doubt that Air France sees a practical need to bring down to the Dutch Brand any time soon.
On the contrary, the two parts of this airline have two distinctly different business models for two different hubs - Paris being more of a destination, and Schipol being more of a transfer spot for KLM. This discrepancy makes Air France more likely to need luxurious First Class cabins and an all-around better hard product. I am not disparaging the service of the Dutch personnel: I have heard that they still offer crisp, warm multilingual service, comfortable, efficient lounges, an extremely efficient transfer airport, collaborative schedules.
A/C configured for Amsterdam have different missions, inside and out. The two airlines experience very little overlap in terms of service.
So I see no underlying need to paint this airline all the same color. The A/C have different missions and are not interchangeable. It would be somewhat of a sideways move and not accomplish much while costing money. Some brand recognition would be lost, with likely some consumer backlash, and without an upside.
I just don't see losing the KLM brand at this time as a good business move.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8577 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8422 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 5): And how long until the board in Paris overrules him?
Why would they?
and how would that hurt them in terms of bilateral agreements? I don't believe every single country that AF/KL fly between has an Open Skies with France/the EU. I don't believe AF with a hub in AMS would be able to fall under The Netherlands Bilateral(s). (but i may be wrong)
Quoting jwenting (Reply 5): Might not end up as AF, but some new pan-European name, Paneur?
again...why?
What would be the point of changing the name? AF/KL already have two brands that are very well known....Like LH/LX(and all the other airlines they own) and BA/IB merging the brands or re-naming KL seems fairly pointless.
AF/KL do not = DL/NW or UA/CO
UA and DL are both in the same country which means they don't(didn't) have to worry about bilateral agreements when they merged.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7281 times:
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 7): and how would that hurt them in terms of bilateral agreements? I don't believe every single country that AF/KL fly between has an Open Skies with France/the EU. I don't believe AF with a hub in AMS would be able to fall under The Netherlands Bilateral(s). (but i may be wrong)
You don't explicitly need Open Skies agreements for AF flights from AMS. All in all it's quite a complex matter.
* Many classic bilateral agreements mention something like "x designated carriers from both countries are allowed to operate y flights to z airports".
(it is important to realize that the 1944 Chicago convention, the framework for bilateral agreements was defined, does not define nationality, and leaves it to the signature parties to specify the definition and agree with it).
Now, there could be a problem in the case of KL, after the AF takeover. Back in 2004, this was tackled by a set-up where the Dutch government owns a golden share in KLM. Part of the definition of this set-up, was that the Dutch government remained responsible for KLM traffic rights. All countries which had a bilateral ASA with the Netherlands, were okay with this construction. But this only allows for KL-flights, not AF-flights.
EU as one country
Now how could AF be allowed to fly from AMS, let's say to Vietnam? Well, this would require the Vietnames government to accept AF flying from the Netherlands. AFAIK there already is a bilateral ASA between Netherlands and Vietnam.
What the EU is doing, is negotiating with all other countries in the world, to accept that within the EU, there is one market and all EU carriers should be treated equally. This does NOT mean, that flights to each country should be allowed, but only that EU carriers can - if there is a bilateral agreement - fly from each country.
So they try to change all hundreds of agreements to (at least) "x designated carriers from any EU country, or the other signature country are allowed to operate y flights to z airports".
An Open Skies agreement is a next step: the agreements, like EU-US/Canada/Morocco/Syria allow each carrier, from each signature country, to fly as much as they want. But this isn't required for (for example) AF flights from AMS to Vietnam.
bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6474 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 5): And how long until the board in Paris overrules him?
Might not end up as AF, but some new pan-European name, Paneur?
If I remember correctly, you have been predicting this for years, and it has never happened, and there is zero indication it ever will.
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6352 times:
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9): If I remember correctly, you have been predicting this for years, and it has never happened, and there is zero indication it ever will.
Agreed. If Alitalia is to join the AF-KLM group, it would become the AF-KLM-AZ group with various brands of airlines operating within the group; Alitalia, Air France and KLM, Transavia and CityJet for example.
There are rumours floating around within the group to establish one cargo brand (Martinair) and one regional airline (CityJet), replacing KLM Cityhopper and the Air France Regionals. However, nothing is definitive at this point...
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4278 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 11): they may not. But the CEO of KLM has no say in the matter, it'll be determined in Paris. That's all I was referring to.
Why always the negative? If the KLM brand is to disappear on order by the AF-KLM board (which also includes Dutch members), KLM will be in a dire condition with massive losses or The Netherlands will be flooded and all Dutch people live in the East and Germany...
No one, not even the evil French, will kill the KLM brand. There's no need to kill the goose with the golden eggs, unless all brands will be merged into one, and that one will never be Air France, it will be a new name.
BA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 718 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3468 times:
It is the same rules as the new IAG. Willie Walsh in an internal newspaper has ruled out a single brand for the group because of the very different business model the current and future member airlines have.
tymnbalewne From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3204 times:
Quoting wexfordflyer (Reply 19): Quoting jwenting (Reply 18):
sigh, kids too young to get the joke...
bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3177 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 18): sigh, kids too young to get the joke...
So you saying for years that the KLM name and brand were going to disappear soon was a joke? If so, apparantly no one got the joke.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 998 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2760 times:
Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 6): So I see no underlying need to paint this airline all the same color. The A/C have different missions and are not interchangeable. It would be somewhat of a sideways move and not accomplish much while costing money. Some brand recognition would be lost, with likely some consumer backlash, and without an upside.
I just don't see losing the KLM brand at this time as a good business move.
I've quoted only the end of an excellent post, which echoes my thoughts very closely. Not much to add apart from a "welcome to my RU list SST".
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